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TWA's JFK-TLV Service  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7357 times:

How long did TWA operate JFK-TLV for? Was it just 707s, then 747s, then 767s? Were they popular on the route (simiiar to CO with EWR-TLV today)? Did anybody ever fly the route on TWA? I'm looking for general background information...

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7341 times:

I am 99% sure that they operated it up until the very end. I took a TWA 747 about 4 days after flight 800 to TLV.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7323 times:

According to this rough history, it may well have been since 1950 using multi-stop flights on piston aircraft.

http://www.google.com/search?q=TWA+t...dates&tbs=tl:1,tlul:1940,tluh:2009

The question of popularity was one that was heavily debated by the former TWA employees at TLV and AA after the asset buy. The TLV workers claimed the route was profitable to the tune of $8.5-$10 million per year. AA dropped it because they were worried that 75 employees for a single daily would be economic suicide, particularly if they had maintained the route and became subject to severance obligations under Israeli law upon a later cancellation. Was a huge deal 8 years ago.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7176 times:

TLV-JFK on a TWA 747 was the first time I ever flew. I was two and a half years old so I don't really recall anything....

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7098 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
According to this rough history, it may well have been since 1950 using multi-stop flights on piston aircraft.

In TW's August 1951 timetable they had 2 flights a week JFK (then IDL) -TLV with Lockheed Constellations.

Routings eastbound:
IDL-ORY-ZRH-CIA-ATH-TLV
IDL-BOS-SNN-ORY-GVA-MXP-CIA-ATH-TLV

Routings westbound:
TLV-ATH-CIA-GVA-ORY-IDL
TLV-ATH-CIA-MXP-ZRH-ORY-JFK

And most flights also made a fuel stop at Gander.


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6978 times:

TW operated JFK-TLV up until the very end. In 2001, I believe they were flying a 763ER on the route. I was surprised when AA swallowed up TW that they didn't resume JFK-TLV with their metal and then I learned about the whole TLV concessions thing.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2117 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6746 times:



Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 5):
TW operated JFK-TLV up until the very end. In 2001, I believe they were flying a 763ER on the route. I was surprised when AA swallowed up TW that they didn't resume JFK-TLV with their metal and then I learned about the whole TLV concessions thing.

yes TWA operated the B763 at the end. I remember TWA even having their own red stairway with the TWA logo in TLV at least as long as they operated their B747 flights


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3034 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6712 times:

IIRC many of the westbound 747 flights, especially the 741s, made a planned stop in SNN for fuel.


FLYi
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1108 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6692 times:

What memories. I flew JFK-TLV-JFK on a TW 742 during spring break in 1996. It was an intersting experience. My mother and I were flying on stand-by tickets, and it did not look too good. But (unfortunately) two buses were detonated in downtown Jerusalem and Tel Aviv several weeks before our flight (this was before blowing-up-buses became an everyday occurance.) Many people cancelled their flights. I would say the aircraft was 3/4 empty. It was my first time flying a 747 and I remember that my mother and I had two center rows all to ourselves (it was a fairly long flight, about 14 hours if not more, my mother took the center seats in front of me, and I had 5 seats all to myself. I miss TW.
P.S. It was a great trip - my first and only time to Israel/Palestine, plan to go again with my fiance when I get my non-rev..



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9963 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

As an interesting aside, when DL took over the JFK-Paris-TLV route in '91, for the first month we were there, in TLV, kind of a big deal was made of DL's new service, in the papers and in promotional events. All of us stayed at the Sheraton as well as the flight crews. We had a small model of a DL a/c on a pedestal, under a glass cover in the lobby of the hotel. Within a few days of the model being there, someone had stolen it and we always suspected it was the TWA employees, whether flight crew or staff. We could never prove it but they certainly had the motive and access to it.

Ok, now back to the regular program.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSfotraveler From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6434 times:

I recall flying on an L-1011 in around 1986 from cdg to jfk that had originated in Tel Aviv. At the time TWA had a small hub operation in Paris. They also had a 747 non stop throughout the 1980s. I think it was a really successful route for them.

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6326 times:
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AA missed the boat at TLV, TWA used to own it. Continental has two 777 daily from EWR to TLV. Delta has a daily 777 from TLV to ATL as well a TLV - JFK with either 777 or 767's.

Would it have been so bad to pay these 50 or so ex-TWA what was owed them even if it was ten milion dollars. I understand that these were TWA debts left in a Bankruptcy court in teh USA, TLV could have been very solid for AA out of JFK and ORD and perhaps kept CAL out.


User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6035 times:
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I still fly JFK /TLV now for DL but am a former TW F/A and I flew the 747, 763 as well as the L-1011
via BOS-CDG-TLV. We had at one point two daily non-stops 747 on the JFK-TLV route in-
addition to the BOS-CDG-TLV run. At the end 2000-2001 when we weren't paying our fuelbills on time we had a stop on the TLV-JFK route in SNN. If the fuel and load were critical we would stop in Cyprus on the out bound trip. Flight crewsere instructed not to uplift fuel in TLV for the 747's.
When the "problem" was cleared up the 767-300 were operating non stop both ways. When I
left TW for LH in August 2001 the TLV flights were hit and miss due to the fear that the TLV
employees, who were owed monies would have the aircraft seized in TLV until the monies were paid. A very sad end to one of TW most profitable overseas routes. AA never picked up the route for fear of being held liable for the funds owed (as a note they are still owed.)


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2976 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 11):

I think next summer US will begin flying 2x 332 from PHL-YLV



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineHKG212 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2008, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5456 times:

I flew the route many times, first on 747s with a stopover in CDG, then on 747 non-stop, then on 767. One memorable eastbound 747 flight had to stop in Rome, presumably for refueling, although the side wall next to my seat over the wing had gotten really hot during the flight and I think they were testing for some mechanical problems. This was shortly before Flight 800 went down and I always wondered if it was the same craft.

Part of the experience was the departure from the magnificent and intimate TWA Terminal at JFK, sadly now rusting away at the shadow of the new T5. As dysfunctional and run-down as it was in the final years, it still never failed to give you an uplifting sense of excitement which you never find in today's bland mega-terminals.

My last flight on the route was on a 763 (I believe ex-LH; there were still German signs around the cabin). I flew in First, and I still count that as one of the best in-flight expereiences I ever had even if the seats were far behind today's standards. The food selection and quality, the silver serving dishes, and the cabin crew were all top-notch.

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The magical old TWA Terminal at JFK (T5), in May 2001, shortly before closing.
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 480 File size: 35kb
Old TWA Terminal at JFK in May 2001, "tunnel" leading to the satellite concourse.
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Old TWA Terminal at JFK in May 2001, shortly before closing


User currently offlineIndio66 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

In the late 90s, the TLV and the CAI / Saudi flights used to always be in gates right next to one another at JFK, and he flights left 20 min apart. Made for an interesting dynamic (both were always packed)

User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5170 times:



Quoting HKG212 (Reply 14):
Part of the experience was the departure from the magnificent and intimate TWA Terminal at JFK, sadly now rusting away at the shadow of the new T5. As dysfunctional and run-down as it was in the final years, it still never failed to give you an uplifting sense of excitement which you never find in today's bland mega-terminals.

Great pictures!!!! By the way, JetBlue recognizes the important and beauty of the TWA terminal and is currently restoring it to its original condition so its not really "rusting" away.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineStyles9002 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 526 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4944 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 11):
Would it have been so bad to pay these 50 or so ex-TWA what was owed them even if it was ten milion dollars. I understand that these were TWA debts left in a Bankruptcy court in teh USA, TLV could have been very solid for AA out of JFK and ORD and perhaps kept CAL out.

As long as it was not your money, right?



It is what it is.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5225 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4892 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 11):
TLV could have been very solid for AA out of JFK and ORD and perhaps kept CAL out.

CO was already flying EWR-TLV when AA bought TW.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineHKG212 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2008, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

Another interesting anecdote on that route: the last TWA 747 flight I took JFK-TLV I remembered had a very strange boarding arrangement, where the jetway was linked to the right side of the plane!

Not trusting my memory I did a little research now and realized the flight left from Gate 32, where indeed the 747 was parked on the "wrong side" of the gate, no doubt due to the constraints accommodating 747s in a facility designed for 707s.
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Gate 32

Big version: Width: 1202 Height: 533 File size: 154kb


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4488 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 16):
JetBlue recognizes the important and beauty of the TWA terminal and is currently restoring it to its original condition so its not really "rusting" away.

Indeed this is the case. The priority, of course, was to get the actual terminal up and running before worrying about the nostalgic entryway. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out in the end.

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 15):
In the late 90s, the TLV and the CAI / Saudi flights used to always be in gates right next to one another at JFK, and he flights left 20 min apart. Made for an interesting dynamic (both were always packed)

How strange that must have been to see Orthodox Jews and Wahhabi Muslims in such quarters.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

I frequently used the flight in the early 70's, but only to Rome. I believe it was TW 840, non stop JFK-FCO, with onward service to Athens and then Tel Aviv. Initially it was 707 service, then graduated to nearly empty 747s, which were a pleasure! $199. round trip youth fare to age 26 (alas!), and I usually got to stretch out on the 4 across row. There was a change of aircraft in Rome to 707 (possibly 720s, I can't recall; I know El Al used the 720s ex Rome). At some point, I remember feeling not overly thrilled when the flight attendants seemed much younger than I was... (That no longer is a problem). Oh, TWA tried to use a "mock wood panel" veneer on the side walls of the 747s. One of my ongoing "complaints" with aircraft decor is the universal, bland, putty gray interiors. TWA did try to break away from that mold early on, but, unfortunately, it didn't work. It actually looked worse than the current gray-beige interiors. Hope this bit of 35 year old trivia helps someone...


"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 11):
AA missed the boat at TLV, TWA used to own it. Continental has two 777 daily from EWR to TLV. Delta has a daily 777 from TLV to ATL as well a TLV - JFK with either 777 or 767's.

Also don't forget US with 1x332 PHL-TLV daily. Add to that of course a whole bunch of ELAL flights.

AA now does a lot of codesharing with ELAL since after DL decided to compete with ELAL on the NYC route.

[Edited 2009-10-10 10:36:20]

User currently offlineFRA2DTW From Germany, joined Feb 2004, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Booked JFK-TLV in 1967 and went by 747 to FRA (flight #740) and transferred to a 727 with the same flight #. I'm sure there were other routings at the same time.

User currently onlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2991 times:



Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 23):
Booked JFK-TLV in 1967 and went by 747 to FRA (flight #740)

The first commercial flight by a Boeing 747 was by Pan Am on January 21, 1970:

http://www.boeing.com/history/chronology/chron10.html


25 RJpieces : Do you have any additional details to share about what the flights were like? Popular with TWA crews, etc? What years was this? Indeed. Thank you for
26 BMI727 : Awkward. I remember reading a story a while back about how years back at ORY El Al and MEA were given adjacent gates.
27 RJpieces : Not really. If you go to Terminal 4 at JFK, El Al, which has operated from there for decades, shares the (relatively small) terminal with Emirates, E
28 Viscount724 : That's not uncommon. At GVA, I have often seen LY parked at a gate next to one of the other carriers from the Middle East that serve GVA (ME/MS/RJ/KU
29 Wj : I was jumpseating back to the US on the second to last 767-300 TW/AA operated out of TLV in May or June of 2001 (cant remember). What I do remember wa
30 SKYYBLUE : I've always wanted to see photos of it as a functioning terminal. Thanks so much for that. The Saarinen Building is actually being restored and I bel
31 B767300ER : The second daily JFK-TLV flight operated only during the May-September period and was a daily flight with a 747-200> From recall it left JFK around 17
32 TWA902fly : on july 17, 1997, i flew JFK-BCN on TWA #902 which was a 747-200. (where i got my username from) and we also boarded the flight from the right side.
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