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LH Cargo MD-11 Hard Landing In Mexico City  
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1039 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 32283 times:

Hi, I found this article on avherald. An LH Cargo MD-11, registered D-ALCO, had a hard landing at MEX. It may either be written off or repaired... decision pending. Fortunately no injuries, just some bent metal.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4210beec&opt=0

The METAR string, decoded:

Wind: 260 True, 4 Kts
Vis: 6482 Meters, 4 SM
Clouds: 1500 Few, 2000 Broken, 8000 Overcast
Precip: Light Rain
Temp: 15C Dew: 14C
Pressure: 1026 mb, 30,30 inches


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 32239 times:



Quoting Luftfahrer (Thread starter):
Pressure: 1026 mb

That sounds like sea level instead of 7000+ feet...Can anyone explain?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 32074 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 2):
That sounds like sea level instead of 7000+ feet...Can anyone explain?

It's probably the altimeter-relevant air pressure, which is of course always calculated down to sea level.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 32089 times:



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 4):
It's probably the altimeter-relevant air pressure, which is of course always calculated down to sea level.

Yes, that definitely makes sense. Thank you.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12565 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 31986 times:

Just wondering what kind of Gs this aircraft would have had?

Wind doesn't seem to have been a factor here (only 3-4 kts).


User currently offlineNetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 31461 times:

reason why I think we hard landings at MEX (from a pilot's perspective).....If you're not familiar, MEX is/can be a busy airport, the arrival is very busy as well. Many people get high and fast, or in pilot's terms- a little "behind the airplane", some chop the power to get down and slow down combined with MEX's altitude, you have all the ingredients for a not so smooth landing...

I'm not saying that's what happened here, just saying that happens a bit. I've done it myself


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12565 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 31337 times:



Quoting Netjetsintl (Reply 7):
reason why I think we hard landings at MEX (from a pilot's perspective).....If you're not familiar, MEX is/can be a busy airport, the arrival is very busy as well. Many people get high and fast, or in pilot's terms- a little "behind the airplane", some chop the power to get down and slow down combined with MEX's altitude, you have all the ingredients for a not so smooth landing...

The other issue is, of course, that being 7,000'+ above sea level, the aircraft will need to come in considerably faster than usual.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 30632 times:

Sounds like the MD-11's somewhat quirky landing characteristics may have struck again....


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineS.P.A.S. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 30183 times:

Not to mention that Varig had a similar incident, at MEX, back in 2004, including tail strike and major damage, to one of her MD11s, PP-VTF.

Cheers,
RS



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineScrappy27 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 28428 times:

Any pics of the LH MD11??

User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1097 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 28123 times:

I am glad that the pilots were not harmed......

I am not a pilot but seems MD-11 is tricky on landing. Can we say that this aircraft is potentially unsafe? Is it good practice to have a 'tricky' aircraft out there?

regards
musapapaya



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 27557 times:



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 10):
I am not a pilot but seems MD-11 is tricky on landing. Can we say that this aircraft is potentially unsafe? Is it good practice to have a 'tricky' aircraft out there?

NO, not at all. The MD11 is not unsafe.. the MD11, just like many other complex airplanes requires a lot of attention and skill. That's that, but its not unsafe at all... I've never flown the MD11 but I've talked to pilots who have.

The MD11 is a bit complex, MEX is a very busy airport at a high altitude, things can get busy in a New York minute... it happens


User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 24189 times:

Good news that she will be repaired. Hopefully we can get details on the accident soon

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 24174 times:

I hope none of the pilots are in hot soup over this.

Given how the air cargo business in general is struggling, and that I believe LH has parked MD-11s, one can guess that LH may prefer to see a writeoff and a check from the insurance company?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 24111 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):

Given how the air cargo business in general is struggling, and that I believe LH has parked MD-11s, one can guess that LH may prefer to see a writeoff and a check from the insurance company?

No

-->

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 15):
Btw., no decision pending, Charlie Oscar will be repaired.



User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 24021 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 18):
No

Great!

Thanks.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineXAAPB From Mexico, joined Jan 2005, 446 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 23660 times:

not the best quality but since i took the picture from my cellphone while taxing to runway 23R for departure and now this post explains what happen. I saw the plane whit the cockpit windows cover, the main landing gear was cover with plastic, engine had there covers on and from what I read on another forum looks like the plane will be repair and will be taken to the desert.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee118/Chicho001/08102009087.jpg



Jorge Meneses
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 22729 times:



Quoting XAAPB (Reply 20):
looks like the plane will be repair and will be taken to the desert

- Taken to the desert and then written off?

- How old is the aircraft? How many cycles and hours?

David



Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 22485 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 21):
- Taken to the desert and then written off?

No  Yeah sure

-->

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 15):
Btw., no decision pending, Charlie Oscar will be repaired.

Getting a small repair in MEX, then being flown to VCV and getting a permanent repair there.

Anyway, it wouldn't be LH Cargos decision anyway to write off or repair. Its an insurance decision on what is the most economical solution for them.


User currently offlineMUCFLYER From Germany, joined May 2004, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 22185 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 21):
- How old is the aircraft? How many cycles and hours?

In service since 14FEB1992 with 69118 flight hours and 12546 cycles as of 27SEP09.

The high amount of cycles leaves just a slight chance to see LCO in service again, in my opinion. Good to read here about the intentions to repair this frame. No w/o looks better in the books...  Smile


User currently offlineExL10Mktg From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21801 times:



Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 11):


Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 10):
I am not a pilot but seems MD-11 is tricky on landing. Can we say that this aircraft is potentially unsafe? Is it good practice to have a 'tricky' aircraft out there?

NO, not at all. The MD11 is not unsafe.. the MD11, just like many other complex airplanes requires a lot of attention and skill. That's that, but its not unsafe at all... I've never flown the MD11 but I've talked to pilots who have.

The MD11 is a bit complex, MEX is a very busy airport at a high altitude, things can get busy in a New York minute... it happens

The MD11 has a well documented history of being difficult to land, just like it's progenitor, the DC10. If you look at the number of incidents in the Aviation Safety database it's pretty obvious. Pilots who fly the a/c of course will come to it's defense -- talk to the ones who won't of which there is no small list!


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21648 times:



Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 24):
Pilots who fly the a/c of course will come to it's defense -- talk to the ones who won't of which there is no small list!

Not necessarily.

I've spoken to some of them admitting that she can be a bit bitchy (sic!) on final approach - but then again, which aircraft hasn't its characteristics requiring the right skill?

Quoting MUCFLYER (Reply 23):
Good to read here about the intentions to repair this frame.

Not an intention, but a decision made, as I hear!  Wink


User currently offlineTJCAB From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20028 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 25):
I've spoken to some of them admitting that she can be a bit bitchy (sic!) on final approach - but then again, which aircraft hasn't its characteristics requiring the right skill?

And I believe I read in an airliners magazine that it had a tendency to pitch upon landing. At the time of the article (and it was several years back) there had been 16 tail strikes. They even tried to make a humorous comment that to learn ow to land the -11, pilots should observer the autopilot do it.

Also, could its relatively small wing have anything to do with the approach speed/landing characteristics?


User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19828 times:

Just out of curiousity, why does this problem seem limited to MD-11Fs only? I can't recall any incidents like these happening to passenger variants, is there a particular reason for this, or am I mistaken?

User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 19796 times:



Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 20):
The MD11 has a well documented history of being difficult to land, just like it's progenitor, the DC10. If you look at the number of incidents in the Aviation Safety database it's pretty obvious. Pilots who fly the a/c of course will come to it's defense -- talk to the ones who won't of which there is no small list!

A friend of mine flew the MD11 for Eva Air, he said the aircraft "won't let you off the hook if you screw up".... exactly what I'm talking about, it requires a lot of attention and skill, and its perhaps hard to land.....

but someone said the MD11 could be considered an "unsafe aircraft".... I disagree, on my book, an unsafe aircraft is an airplane with a record of structural and mechanical failures.. The DC10 is the first to come to mind, we all remember United in Iowa, and American out of Chicago, the MD11 never experienced anything like that, but it is hard to land, especially during windy conditions..

That's just my opinion, I'm interested to see what others think


25 Post contains links 747classic : D-ALCO is an ex-VASP/Varig MD11. According several German forums the dispatch reliability of these ex. VASP/Varig, converted MD11(F) aircraft is less
26 EGCC777LR : Don't we have an experienced LH MD-11F Pilot amongst us? Wilco737 where are you? (think your name is Phil) You are always a great source of info on al
27 Post contains links Musang : More background info here. http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq9.htm And the following was sent to me in an e-mail - can't corroborate the source. It
28 Point8six : Final approach groundspeed will be approx. 200kts at MEX due to high TAS at elevation. That means a rate of descent of at least 1000fpm to maintain gl
29 KL642 : I think that Wilco737 flies the MD-11F for Lufthansa Cargo. I sure hope that he isn't in Mexico City right now. What would happen to the pilots in thi
30 2H4 : Musang, are bounce recovery techniques not typically a required element of training? Many people feel that while the MD-11 may not meet the general d
31 NicoEDDF : I give up...
32 413X3 : Probably just coincidence, since the majority of all MD-11s in service (numbers wise) are cargo variants.
33 Tjwgrr : He probably can't comment since he works for the same company. Hopefully he wasn't one of the two behind the controls.....
34 Post contains links JRadier : China Airlines flight 642 comes to mind... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_642
35 Pylon101 : Having this all what I read in mind I should say: There is nothing more gorgeous than MD-11 taking off. It's something. I saw it a few times from the
36 Post contains links AverageUser : Ok, so the respective Boards have no clue? Spoilers have had nothing to do with the recent accidents, but letting the vertical speed increase too muc
37 WILCO737 : Hello everybody, this thread was brought to my attention and initially I decided not to post in here, but it got out of control... As I am sure many o
38 BrouAviation : The sound of silence.. Good someone actually shows the other side of incidents like this. Thanks Phil, fly high, land safe.
39 Bennett123 : The good news is that the pilots are OK, and the aircraft is in one piece. Hopefully D-ALCO will be returned to service, although bringing an MD11 bac
40 Airport : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_A...t_642 Ah, good calls. Thank you.
41 DocLightning : I, for one, am just glad to hear you're OK.
42 Md88Captain : I've flown the MD11 at DAL. It is by far the most demanding aircraft I've flown in the landing phase and I've flown everything DAL has had in the last
43 SEPilot : I have been a severe critic of the MD-11, but I have not called for it to be grounded. It certainly has a MUCH higher accident rate than any other (We
44 413x3 : The only reason it hasn't killed that many people is because the recent crashes have all been freighters
45 Revelation : My best wishes to our esteemed a.net members and all aviation professionals. Thanks for sharing the info on the outcome of the ship. As per my posting
46 Gonzalo : With all due respect, I think the website you linked and the text "from an e-mail" below it are not valid sources for credible or serious information
47 413x3 : The design of the MD-11 in certain instances can be more than a handful for even an experienced crew, any slight mistakes or even crosswind gusts whil
48 ADent : I assume a freighter tends to land a lot heavier than passenger A/C - and this will impact the A/C somewhat. Passenger A/C are low on fuel and just t
49 SEPilot : The maximum landing weight for a freighter and a pax plane are the same. In either case, there will likely be relatively little fuel left, putting al
50 AverageUser : "Start to flare and nothing happened"? That should read "the pilot now should have started the flare, but could not initiate it, would not go around
51 NetjetsINTL : Thanx, that's exactly what we were looking for, some input from someone who actually flew the thing.... the rest of us are here arguing based on comm
52 AverageUser : For some reason he did not state his position nor hours on the type. I'd reckon if you do not want a type with "massive underslung engines" you are l
53 MD88Captain : Average User. Not sure where the hostility is coming from. I've just stated my opinion based on flying the airplane on the line. I believe that was wh
54 Trystero : Dificult or not, it's one of the prettiest birds I have ever seen. I recall rushing to runway 03 to see a VarigLog MD11 departing, don't really know i
55 Lexy : Agreed and welcome to my "Respected User" list! I admire your service to our country and you honesty with the MD-11. Thank you again for a very good
56 413x3 : Sorry but this is not true. Also passenger aircraft are not going to be maxed out as often as freighter aircraft
57 SEPilot : Sorry, you are wrong. There have been at least 5 high altitude upsets; only one resulted in fatalities. Regardless how beautiful you may consider the
58 747classic : All aircraft have difficulties to land in conditions at the edge of the operating envelope. (bad weather, X-wind, high elevation airports). We don't k
59 413X3 : Thank you very much 747Classic for your informative posts. Many are also jealous of your lifes work, flying the Queen of the skies and for very good c
60 Viscount724 : Why have long-term MD-11 operators like AY (19 years) and KL (17 years) not had any MD-11 accidents/incidents, at least none that I can find? Is ther
61 Post contains links AverageUser : It's rather more than a normative goal, it's an imperative goal. If you don't know how to perform it, better stick flying types you know how to flare
62 FlyingAY : Just out of curiosity, how do the numbers look like for the two closest competitors, A330/340 and 777?
63 Viscount724 : Those types haven't yet been in service for 19 years, but total hull losses to date for all reasons (including terrorism, fires during maintenance et
64 Musang : As far as I know, yes. Basically, if its a gentle bounce, hold the attitude constant and add some thrust to cushion the next impact. If its a big bou
65 413x3 : long flying hours, minimum legal time between next flights, heavier landing and takeoff weights, flying on the other side of the clock more often, et
66 Post contains links SEPilot : I would suspect that AY and KL have superior pilot training programs, and probably have focused on the areas where the MD-11 is more difficult to han
67 Max Q : If KL is Korean they certainly did, crashing an MD11 in Shanghai on April 15 1999 with no survivors.
68 JRadier : as the mouseover will reveal, KL is KLM, KE is Korean.
69 Max Q : No question KLM operates a fine Airline with first rate training and Pilots. But so does Lufthansa, it doesn't matter how good you are with the MD11,
70 ManuCH : We have tried several times to keep this thread on-topic, without success. At first it started concentrating on a forum member, then it drifted off as
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