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DL/Boeing - 764ERs As Compensation For 787 Delays?  
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6432 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15659 times:

With DL not expected to get 787s until 2011, I was wondering, could there be a possibility of Boeing offering DL some heavily discounted 767-400ERs as compensation?

DL is very happy with their 764ER fleet. With its amazingly low CASM (vs. the 763ER) on transatlantic routes, I think DL would be happy to upgage some more 763ER routes in the summer months.

Also, before anyone mentions the A330, I am pretty sure that Boeing will do anything to satisfy Delta's current needs, and this could perhaps be in the form of heavily-disconunted 764ERs as an interm solution until the 787s are delivered. Also, DL has some 764ER options that haven't been excersised.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15641 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
, I was wondering, could there be a possibility of Boeing offering DL some heavily discounted 767-400ERs as compensation?
Boeing does not offer the 767-400 anymore. Kenya airways had an order in for them and they were given an upgrade to 777s in their place for the same cost I beleive for the trouble. Can any one else verify this ?

Just my 0.02

[Edited 2009-10-11 19:22:01]


The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15638 times:

Correction...Boeing, My bad...im getting sleepy


The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineJbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15573 times:

The 767 line is open.. if you have money to buy you can purchase any variant.

User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 1):
Boeing does not offer the 767-400 anymore

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/index.html


...Boeing seems to disagree...

...just realized your correction...did you think it was 747-400 for a minute?

[Edited 2009-10-11 19:28:50]


"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15549 times:



Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 3):
The 767 line is open.. if you have money to buy you can purchase any variant.

Then why did Kenya Airways switch to the 777 when they wanted the 767-400???

Just my 0.02



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15550 times:



Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 1):
Boeing does not offer the 767-400 anymore. Kenya airways had an order in for them and they were given an upgrade to 777s in their place for the same cost I beleive for the trouble. Can any one else verify this ?

Wrong, the 767 line is still open, and any variant (including the 764ER) can be purchased. DL still has unexcersised options for the 764ER.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15553 times:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 5):
Then why did Kenya Airways switch to the 777 when they wanted the 767-400???

Kenya actually wanted the 767-400ERX, which Boeing cancelled. The 764ERX was to used the same engines that Boeing was going to use on the 747X, which was also cancelled.

[Edited 2009-10-11 19:31:52]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15463 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Kenya actually wanted the 767-400ERX, which Boeing cancelled. The 764ERX was to used the same engines that Boeing was going to use on the 747X, which was also cancelled.

[Edited 2009-10-11 19:31:52]

Thanks for the clarification, Right airplane wrong variant...

Just my 0.02



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15397 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 1):
Boeing does not offer the 767-400 anymore. Kenya airways had an order in for them and they were given an upgrade to 777s in their place for the same cost I beleive for the trouble. Can any one else verify this ?

Wrong, the 767 line is still open, and any variant (including the 764ER) can be purchased.

However Boeing hasn't built a 764 for 7 years, except for the one intended as the prototype for the cancelled USAF E-10 program which is now being converted to a VIP aircraft for the Bahrain government. With only 38 764s in existence, they will have poor resale value, as is normally the case for aircraft produced in such small numbers. And Boeing has enough problems without complicating it's remaining 767 production. The 764 has quite a few differences from the 763.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15384 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
With only 38 764s in existence, they will have poor resale value, as is normally the case for aircraft produced in such small numbers.

And why would DL care about resale value? It isn't like DL is trying to sell their 764ERs.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15384 times:
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Regardless of whether you can order 767-400s, I doubt that DL or many other US carriers are particularly eager to acquire any new widebody aircraft at this point. The fact is that the delays in the 787 program may actually have been beneficial to the carriers no matter what their public posture. It is not a good time to add more seats to one's fleet, or the new routes that many 787s were thought to be destined to serve!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15287 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
With only 38 764s in existence, they will have poor resale value, as is normally the case for aircraft produced in such small numbers.

And why would DL care about resale value? It isn't like DL is trying to sell their 764ERs.

You said in your original posting that they would be stopgaps while waiting for the 787s. So, assuming the 787s are delivered sometime in the next half dozen years, DL would presumably want to sell the 764s which would still be quite new. They absolutely would consider resale value in that kind of decision.

And you haven't clarified why DL needs the additional widebody capacity.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15199 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
You said in your original posting that they would be stopgaps while waiting for the 787s. So, assuming the 787s are delivered sometime in the next half dozen years, DL would presumably want to sell the 764s which would still be quite new. They absolutely would consider resale value in that kind of decision.

Well, there is a DL policy against selling owned aircraft to other carriers unless they are cargo carriers. DL regrets selling their DC-9s (pre-NW) to ValuJet as they are now DL's #1 competitor at ATL, AirTran. Of course, this rule does not apply to leased aircraft.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDL_mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1926 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15071 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
DL regrets selling their DC-9s (pre-NW) to ValuJet as they are now DL's #1 competitor at ATL, AirTran.

IIRC, DL sold some of the DC-9's to McDonnell Douglas as part of the MD-11 deal. It was MDC who then sold the planes to Valujet.



This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14694 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
With only 38 764s in existence, they will have poor resale value, as is normally the case for aircraft produced in such small numbers.

So you do not believe another 767 operator might take them? Would it be more expensive to convert a 767-400ER to freight, or could it use the same BCF certification as the 767-300ER?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
The 764 has quite a few differences from the 763.

IIRC all of them are either incorporated into all 767 airplanes (like the interior) or parts used for the 777. The 764 interior are now standard, the brakes and MLG are from the 777. The cockpit is similar to the 777. Do new 767-300ER airplanes come with CRT displays? That seems kind of odd.

This being said, I sadly believes that no more 767-400Er airplanes will be built Sad



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineHigherflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13257 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
Well, there is a DL policy against selling owned aircraft to other carriers unless they are cargo carriers.

That's not an official Delta policy.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2422 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12827 times:

I just wonder if Boeing would consider putting 787 type engine on the 767?


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12730 times:
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I would think Boeing would be more likely to make DL a deal on 77Ls - that is the model that can benefit most from additional orders.



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 17):
I just wonder if Boeing would consider putting 787 type engine on the 767?

Only if the 787 program is cancelled. And at that point, re-engining a 767 won't matter.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12548 times:

[quote=Stitch,reply=18]Only if the 787 program is cancelled. And at that point, re-engining a 767 won't matter.

I dont think thats going to happen. The first six are built an the next 7 or 8 or in some form of assembly. Numbers 7,8,and 9 go to ANA....so say the tour guide. Number seven need to be engined and is at the door in that "pretty" green primer.
.........was at Everett last Friday for the tour.
The 747-8 has at least eight airplanes in some form of construction. Cargolux is number one at the door.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12385 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 10):
And why would DL care about resale value? It isn't like DL is trying to sell their 764ERs.

Unless DL plan to crash all their 767-400ERs, they will eventually sell them, so resale value is an important consideration. For this reason and others, I think it is far more likely that DL might take 777s as compensation for the 787 delays.


User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12112 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):

Unless DL plan to crash all their 767-400ERs, they will eventually sell them, so resale value is an important consideration. For this reason and others, I think it is far more likely that DL might take 777s as compensation for the 787 delays.

Likely when DL sells their B766-400ERs, it will be after 20+ years of heavy usage.

DL is not like SQ or EK, who tends to dispose of aircraft while their is still plenty of life in the airframe.

They usually get most of the effective life out of the a/c and then sell it when it becomes inefficient to operate (see B767-200, L1011, DC-8, B727, and B737-200 in DL service).

A couple exceptions are the MD-11's, which did not meet performance specs and took major penalties, plus the 747s DL disposed of in the 1970s just didn't fit into their network at the time and should never have been bought in the first place.

Once an aircraft has proven itself in DL service and they are comfortable with its performance and maintenance characteristics, odds are they'll keep it for a long time. Delta is quite happy with their B764 performance. Even if the 787 supplants it on prestige international routes, DL could always use the 764 for secondary European or South American destinations, Hawaii, or reconfigure it to a higher density seating for domestic flights, similar to what it was doing prior to their big international buildup of a couple years ago.

When Delta does dispose of the B764s, odds are it will be at an "affordable" price because they'll have gotten 20+ years out of it, the aircraft will be coming up on heavy maintenance checks, and that the 764 will be considered fuel inefficient, relative to its peers (remember, I'm talking 10-25 years from now).

Resale price, while a nice cash infusions, isn't everything. There are huge benefits for DL's operation for the next decade or two to flying an aircraft that is mostly paid off or leased at an affordable rate. You could start an airline with all the DL B727s, B737-200s, and L1011s in the desert, and you don't see DL complaining because those aircraft are presently worth so little. Personally I believe DL will keep flying the 764 until they've gotten all the value they can in it - and then likely unload them to some carrier from the third world who'll be more than happy to take it for a couple million.

AN

[Edited 2009-10-12 07:55:26]

User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12090 times:

DL is not in need of widebody lift at the moment. In fact, I think they just sent an A330 to the desert for temporary storage. I think they will be happy to wait for the 787, and the delay actually helps them.

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10741 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
You said in your original posting that they would be stopgaps while waiting for the 787s. So, assuming the 787s are delivered sometime in the next half dozen years, DL would presumably want to sell the 764s which would still be quite new. They absolutely would consider resale value in that kind of decision.

Not necessarily - a deal could be reached wherein Boeing builds the birds and provides them to Delta on a lease basis, and as Delta acquires 787's, the 764's would be given back to Boeing and become Boeing's problem. This would seem to get around any Delta policy, official or not, relieve Delta of any concern as to the resale value and the need to dispose of the aircraft when they are no longer needed.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10683 times:
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But why would Boeing want to build a bunch of planes they won't be able to re-sell for a profit?

It's not like DL is saying they're going to walk unless they get the 787-8 in the next 12 months. They're not sure when they want the planes, so I don't see where Boeing needs to offer them anything in the interim.


25 Lightsaber : [ There are two 'optimum' times to rotate the fleet. After 7 or 20+ years. DL choses the later long time frame, which hurts an airline during oil spik
26 Dl767captain : I think DL would be happy getting the 764ERs for an extreme discount if they could get them very soon, but with NW's A330s bridging gaps do they reall
27 Zvezda : 20 years from now, the resale value of a 767-400ER will be very low because there will be little value in the parts and little value as a freighter c
28 1337Delta764 : Well, the 764 is useful on routes that can use more capacity than a 763ER that don't need its additional range. The CASM of the 764ER is lower than t
29 Manfredj : I think this is an interesting question and I will look foreward to the outcome. It's my opinion that you will see more 330's to the desert in favor
30 Dl767captain : I guess that makes sense, I thought DL would start to push A330s to Europe flights as the 787s came online to replace the Asia routes. Is the 764 mor
31 Manfredj : Absolutely not. No one really knows why right now or what their intentions are but no scrapping. Again, just my opinion that they will send more 330'
32 UAL747DEN : Why!?!?!?!? Delta doesn't need them so why would anyone go through all this trouble and expense for something that is not needed? They will not! Delt
33 UA76Heavy : This policy needs further definition. DL sold 3 763s to HA last year.
34 CV880 : 777's if anything. Just getting rid of some useless domestic old dogs (non ER's).
35 MasseyBrown : I have a theory (which I cannot prove so maybe I should call it a "sense") that the real economic life of an aircraft has always been about 15 years,
36 1337Delta764 : Um, those aircraft were leased, not owned. This policy does not apply to leased aircraft.
37 Bennett123 : I t would be interesting to see what impact these B767-400's have in terms of re sale values and sales of new B787's.
38 Post contains links Viscount724 : The larger wheels and tires (4 inches larger diamater than the 763) and brakes are from the 777 but not the landing gear (the 777 has 6-wheel main ge
39 Western727 : I thought DL's non-ERs aren't/weren't ETOPS-rated? Surely HA requires ETOPS. Thanks in advance for the answer.
40 CV880 : They've been using non-ER ETOPS planes to Hawaii ever since they pulled the 764's off the route. I believe that HA had their ex-DL aircraft equipped/
41 PM : They were also pretty comfortable with their TriStars. Perhaps they'll bring them back and park the 767s. So let's see. They'll park a fleet of the m
42 DocLightning : Which, while off-topic, makes me wonder why they follow such different business models.
43 Chuchamadre : Maybe LAN would be interested in buying them off DL? Chucha M.
44 Western727 : I see. Do you or anybody else know what percentage (or some kind of approximation at least) of DL's non-ER 763s were ETOPS-rated at the height of the
45 MD88Captain : DAL doesn't need wide-bodies at any discount right now. If there is compensation from BA concerning the 787 delay expect it to come in the form of 777
46 Par13del : Well in one thread we did learn that the a/c is coming up on it's heavy check which means money, if and when traffic does pick up the checks will sti
47 CV880 : I believe that this applies to only 4 aircraft and from the current skeds it appears that only two are in service on any one day to Hawaii (From SLC
48 MBJ2000 : Hey let's be serious, DL ordering new 764s is as ridiculous as BA ordering new BAC 1-11. Everybody else in the industry would lough their asses off at
49 PM : According to the Boeing website, DL placed a single order for 767-400ERs (21 of them) more than twelve years ago (June 1997). (I'm astonished to reali
50 PVG : If you don't mind, can you please explain why 7 and 20 years are magic numbers? Is that when the heaviest/costliest maintenance is due to be done? Co
51 PM : Are you thinking of something like the SQ A340/777 deal? I'm not sure whether Boeing would choose to go down that road again. In any case, I continue
52 PVG : Well, why not. If I were them, I'd be looking at doing as much compensation in non-cash terms if possible. I know, that is why I was thinking that th
53 Asiaflyer : Only if DL is trying to win Darwin awards 2010. Would be a reversed SQ deal then. Or clunkers for cash!!
54 Sxf24 : I think DL has already received compensation for the 787 delays in the form of accelerated 777 deliveries and deferral of the earliest 787s. Both woul
55 Manfredj : It's not that simple PM. Just because it's sought after doesn't translate into an effective life for an airline that has 4 Boeing aircraft to every A
56 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : Parked due to heavy checks coming up. LHR routes, South America(EZE,SCL,GIG,GRU) SLC/LAX-HNL LAX/SLC-OGG are all on ETOPS 763s. DL's first order was
57 Nycbjr : " target=_blank>http://boeing.com/commercial/news/19....html It was my understanding from previous threads that the 767-400 was called the ERX 2x, fi
58 Flighty : You would lose that $20M many times over during the intervening years, with increased operating costs, if the 777 capability is not needed. Also, to
59 DeltaL1011man : also the largest in the world and IIRC NW cant say that about the 330s anymore. I believe CX has one more or they are now even at 32, but CX has more
60 PPVRA : They can use the cash right now more than airplanes, but otherwise they should either go for 777 or 737 discounts IMO.
61 PM : Are you perhaps confusing the pre-merger DL and the post-merger DL? It seems improbable that NW hadn't made some arrangements to maintain their fleet
62 Mbm3 : Estimated resale value has a significant impact on lease rates & I would imagine that they would prefer to lease rather than purchase the aircraft.
63 UAL747DEN : I couldn't really understand this so called "policy" but didn't want to say anything without knowing more about it. I was finally able to get into co
64 PVG : OK, got it! that makes sense to me now! Thanks!
65 PVG : On the other hand, rather than letting them sit and then spending millions to reconfigure them and maintain them when they may not have a need for th
66 UAL747DEN : Airlines make cuts in the Winter every year, this is really nothing new!
67 DeltaL1011man : Why? They have yet to lease a new (from Boeing) in many years. (and ALOT of DL's aircraft on lease were new to Delta from Boeing and Leo soild them o
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