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Air New Zealand : All A320 , Or All 738?  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12086 times:

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=18151

Air New Zealand will give their answer in November about their choice to replace their 733s.

2 options

- Ordering more A320s ( Perhaps A319s ?) , and go all A32X.

- Ordering 738s and selling all the A320s they already have , and go all 738.

They are totally free , since all the A320s they have , will see ending lease time in 2010.

Speculation can beginn ; All A320 or all 738 ?

Despite , on the spotter side , would be great to see 738 in full NZ cs and less boring , this is Airbus to lose........

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12032 times:



Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):

Air New Zealand will give their answer in November about their choice to replace their 733s.

2 options

- Ordering more A320s ( Perhaps A319s ?) , and go all A32X.

- Ordering 738s and selling all the A320s they already have , and go all 738.

November = Dubai Air Show.  Wink Might just very well be yet one more order to be announced by Airbus.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12010 times:
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Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
Ordering 738s and selling all the A320s they already have , and go all 738.

Actually , IIRC , most of the A320s are leased not owned which could make it a bit easier to tip the whole deal in Boeings direction . I am a bit unsure about a fleet of all 738s ( or for the matter all A320s) , it seems a bit of overkill for the domestic NZ market . I would have thought a mix of 738s and 73Gs would be more suitable .( or retaining the A320s and adding A319s)



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineClydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11990 times:

Well, whoever offers the best deal.

User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11765 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
Actually , IIRC , most of the A320s are leased not owned

If most of the A320s are leased then Boeing could come in with a really good deal if they wanted to buy the 738s. It's kind of Boeing's order to lose, A320s would seem likely to compliment their existing fleet, but since most are leased they don't have much to lose by switching to the 738.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11680 times:



Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 4):
If most of the A320s are leased then Boeing could come in with a really good deal if they wanted to buy the 738s.

Boeing most likely will be pressured to give a really good deal considering the 787 problems. The fact that the A320s are leased makes it really fair game.

I would think it would come down to whichever airplane is better at the Tasman Sea crossings. I'm sure someone down there has some knowledge of how the 738 is working out for QF.


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11609 times:

Yes Boeing can give some 738s to NZ for 787 compensation..........

User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11567 times:

A high-up told me that the aircraft are so close in terms of performance on the routes Air NZ plan to utilize them for, it will solely come down to who offers the best overall package deal.


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User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11475 times:



Quoting TG992 (Reply 8):
A high-up told me that the aircraft are so close in terms of performance on the routes Air NZ plan to utilize them for, it will solely come down to who offers the best overall package deal.

Good to know. I just thought I remember the 738 being able to haul a little more for the same cost than the A320 when it comes to the longer routes.


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11446 times:

It probably can, but he was referring SPECIFICALLY in Air NZ's planned config, route structure, route lengths, etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing who they go with!



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User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12465 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11351 times:

My spider senses tell me that a 738 seems a more likely option (well, largely because I just sat on one - a spider, not a 738!)

It seems slightly odd to me that "both aircraft are so close in performance on NZ's routes that it's down to who gives the best deal"; ok, so they don't want to give much away, BUT they have been operating the A320 for a few years now; is there any indication of how the A320 is liked (or disliked) by the NZ flying public - and NZ's pilots, cabin crew and maintenance people?

As fine an aircraft as it is, it does seem rather to "stick out like a sore thumb" in NZ's fleet.
The combination of the A320s coming off lease, the likelihood that Boeing will need to do a deal to keep NZ sweet and the "commonality" advantages of having all crews trained on Boeing types (obviously not a CCQ, but it must help a 738 pilot converting to the 777, much more than crews going from the 320 to 777) and the fact that NZ has a long history with the 737 must make it a favourite.

I'd call it for the 737, if I were pushed.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12145 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11352 times:
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Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
operating the A320 for a few years now; is there any indication of how the A320 is liked (or disliked) by the NZ flying public

I like NZs A320 due to how comfy the interior is, IMHO the A320 seats are more comfy then the B733 seats (but thats all due to the seats NZ decided to use). The PTVs on the A320 fleet now simply make the A320s a nice aircraft to fly on. Can't really judge the B737NG here thou as NZ doesn't operate the NG series, but Pacific Blue do and their B738s are also comfy and I enjoy flying Pacific Blue.

If NZ decide to go with the B73G for domestic and B738 for International ops (which IMHO Boeing has around a 70% chance of winning due to NZs wide body fleet, the B789 compensation and IIRC NZ was originally going to go with the B738 before Airbus came in with a last minute offer for the A320 around 2004. I wouldn't mind seeing the A319 on domestic thou.


User currently offlineTravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 938 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Didn't ANZ originally fly some of their A320's on mainland routes, but transferred them to Tasman routes because the 733's were better suited (to mainland opps)?

I thought a C series type of aircraft would have been in the mix as well.  Smile


User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7186 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11350 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
is there any indication of how the A320 is liked (or disliked) by the NZ flying public - and NZ's pilots, cabin crew and maintenance people?

The different departments think different things...some love some hate.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11350 times:

This will be an interesting contest. A bit of topic, but I found it interesting that both manufacturers offered new frames for delivery already next year, but ANZ wanted them from 2011. Does this mean that more deliveries next year are more unsecure and a production slowdown might be on the horizon sooner rather tan later?


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 844 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11355 times:

Would the ANZ A320 crash in France have any bearing?

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11363 times:



Quoting Travelhound (Reply 13):
Didn't ANZ originally fly some of their A320's on mainland routes, but transferred them to Tasman routes because the 733's were better suited (to mainland opps)?

No, they have always been used on the trans-Tasman market. They operated them virtually straight away. They operate some mainland routes for repositioning and that's basically between CHC and AKL.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 16):
Would the ANZ A320 crash in France have any bearing?

I doubt it - it wasn't a maintenance fault which brought it down and I'm not sure if it would still affect people that this one plane went down.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 12):
If NZ decide to go with the B73G for domestic and B738 for International ops (which IMHO Boeing has around a 70% chance of winning due to NZs wide body fleet, the B789 compensation and IIRC NZ was originally going to go with the B738 before Airbus came in with a last minute offer for the A320 around 2004. I wouldn't mind seeing the A319 on domestic thou.

I'm not too sure if they would get that many 73Gs, if any, even if they are "too large" for domestic runs. But it'd be interesting to see what compensation they do receive if this 737 deal doesn't go through with Boeing. Hence I'd think Boeing will heavily discount this deal.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 15):
Does this mean that more deliveries next year are more unsecure and a production slowdown might be on the horizon sooner rather tan later?

I think some airlines have cancelled their order due to the GFC and opened up a few gaps in the order line. IIRC before the GFC, the 737 assembly line was full for a few years.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5240 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11362 times:



Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 16):
Would the ANZ A320 crash in France have any bearing?

I doubt it - I thought that had more to do with inadequate training practices and guidelines rather than being a fault of the aircraft.


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11360 times:
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Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
They are totally free , since all the A320s they have , will see ending lease time in 2010.

Not quite. The 1st aircraft to roll off its lease, doesn't happen until 2015 at the earliest. ATW have got their wires a little crossed. The 1st of the 733 fleet comes to the end of it's lease around March 2011.

NZ1


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12145 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11362 times:
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Quoting NZ107 (Reply 17):
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 13):
Didn't ANZ originally fly some of their A320's on mainland routes, but transferred them to Tasman routes because the 733's were better suited (to mainland opps)?

No, they have always been used on the trans-Tasman market. They operated them virtually straight away. They operate some mainland routes for repositioning and that's basically between CHC and AKL.

NZ use to operate A320s frequently when they were short of B733s, but now that NZ has more B733s, A320s don't do as much domestic routes on all three main trunk routes


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9097 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11363 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 5):

Boeing most likely will be pressured to give a really good deal considering the 787 problems.

I thought Boeing would be pressured by its shareholders to extract as much value out of aircraft they are delivering.

Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 5):
I'm sure someone down there has some knowledge of how the 738 is working out for QF.

I seem to have noticed fewer and fewer Qantas 737s crossing to NZ, the domestic 737 they had in NZ also seemed to have also disappeared.

Quoting TG992 (Reply 8):
A high-up told me that the aircraft are so close in terms of performance on the routes Air NZ plan to utilize them for, it will solely come down to who offers the best overall package deal.

Would the containerization come into play, seen some NZ A320 containers in SYD.

Quoting TG992 (Reply 10):
It probably can, but he was referring SPECIFICALLY in Air NZ's planned config, route structure, route lengths, etc.

What is their longest leg ? around 3 hrs ?

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 19):
The 1st aircraft to roll off its lease, doesn't happen until 2015 at the earliest. ATW have got their wires a little crossed. The 1st of the 733 fleet comes to the end of it's lease around March 2011.

Who are the 737s and A320s leased with ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11362 times:
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SAA operate the 319 and the 738 as a passenger the 319 is more comfortable in economy, in business there is little difference IMO. I always fly the 319 if possible but I'm told by friends at SAA that the 738 is better on fuel but maybe comparing a 320/321 with the 738 they would be similar. I would think Boeing will be flexible given ANZ delayed 787 order on the other hand maybe Airbus want to keep their place in New Zealand for the future.


SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
User currently offlineAirCatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11362 times:

In what currency are these operations carried out? Could currency fluctuations have an impact on this?

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11496 times:

I am going for the 738 for two reasons; 787 delay compensation and fleet commonality. If my memory serves me correctly, Boeing gave away 737's to an operator who wanted compensation. Now, if they switch to an all Boeing fleet they can extend their network to places that the A320 can not fly too. Just my specualtion.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineClydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11484 times:

I think it will be the 737NG.

The A320/319 and 737-700/800 are very close in specs that both will meet Air NZ's requirements equally well + or - here + or - there.

It will come down to the best deal and i think Boeing will offer it.


25 KiwiRob : Where can a 738 fly to that an A320 can't in the contect of ANZ's route network?
26 Post contains links and images EA772LR : I would initially have thought that the A320s would stay in the fleet and they'd order more and 319s as well...but with compensation for the 789s, a l
27 NZ193 : If ANZ got all 738's or A320's, how would that work with domestic - trans-tasman routes. As far as I know, ANZ flies all the 737NG for domestic routes
28 NZ1 : A plethora of different leasing companies. ILFC, GECAS, Boullion, to name a few. 4 of the 733's are owned, as are a couple of the A320's NZ1
29 Aerorobnz : I'm not sure a 320 could get into IUE, but I'm not 100% sure on that. VLI/NLK bound 320s are bulk loaded due to local facilities up at the destinatio
30 SunriseValley : So a new engine version of the A320 (or the 737 for that matter) might not be that far out time wise for about 15 of the proposed replacements.
31 OyKIE : So it seems. Let us hope that Boeing and Airbus can maintain the single aisle deliveries next year. About the order. Would NZ be interested in the Sh
32 EDICHC : That would be accounted for by the highly publicized fact that the Qantas(New Zealand)/Jetconnect operation was replaced by JetStar a few months back
33 NZ107 : The only problem with this is that many of the airports in New Zealand have insufficient demand to even warrant an ATR 72 - the Q300 has done quite a
34 DavidByrne : I think that the interesting question is not whether the 738 is chosen over the 320, but whether it will end up being a mix of aircraft of different s
35 NZ107 : I thought that Zeal320 was being reincorporated back into "Air New Zealand", along with the flight number changes and the rest; effectively reducing
36 777ER : WLG and ZQN would be the two main internatonal airports that would strongly benefit from a SFP package for Tasman flights. Maybe an SFP aircraft woul
37 DavidByrne : I wasn't aware of any reintegration plan. I was aware of the change in flight numbers, but I didn't read "reintegration" into that. I find it hard to
38 NZ107 : That was my take on it.. But regardless, they should all be getting rather similar wages when this uniform fleet goes through and it wouldn't be a go
39 DavidByrne : . . . which leaves the only option as being that they would have to increase wages of existing Zeal 320 staff . . . can't see that happening in this
40 NZ107 : It will take 2 years to start rolling the new planes in. NZ could implement it in a way so that all 733s are replaced first (which seems like they'll
41 DavidByrne : Irrespective of what staff earn and what they should earn, I'll be VERY surprised if the terms and conditions that NZ has negotiated for staff to ope
42 NZ107 : I guess we'll wait and see! More people also means a stronger union: It'll have a much more detrimental impact if the entire 737/A320 fleet was groun
43 CHCalfonzo : Even if NZ go for all A320/738 fleet, I don't think you will be seeing all ATR's on the WLG-CHC route. At present there are ~13 flights every week da
44 DavidByrne : Maybe - the other possibility is that the postulated Q400X (or a stretched ATR) will be bought to replace the present AT7s, offering 90 seats per fli
45 ZK-NBT : Hmm interesting debate. I was talking to an engineer friend the other day who had just been to RAR on holiday, coming back he there were problems with
46 Aerorobnz : PTY-EZE Depart 8:52 pm to Arrive 7:02 am +1 day 5,348 km (3,323 mi) Duration: 7hr 10mn CM454 Flown with a standard 737-800 By Comparison AKL PER 3323
47 TravellerPlus : The distance might be similar, but the headwinds on the route are a very strong when heading west. This is the reason why the timetable shows a 7hrs
48 TG992 : I've done a sector time of 8h 19m to PER before (flew far below Tasmania) so agree with TravellerPlus that the headwinds may make it more challenging
49 SunriseValley : A Boeing table shows the 738 can do 3060nm with 162, 2-class passenger load , the -700 , 3365nm with 126 , 2-class passenger load. In my view they co
50 Kiwiandrew : There would still need to be two separate configurations as a J class cabin is not needed domestically , so although there would be an improvement in
51 Zeke : Those distances without baggage ?
52 Cchan : 8 hours with 10-20 passengers standing in the aisle, and 8 people in the queue for the toilets? No thank you.
53 SunriseValley : You are probably correct! I drew a connection between passenger seating capacity and range from the one document that is not supported by what the lo
54 Koruman : All I can say is that someone credible (was it NZ1?) wrote onthe NZ Aviation Thread last year that AKL-NOU is the highest yielding sector on the enti
55 Kiwiandrew : I do get it ( I think) , if I am not mistaken the air services agreement between New Zealand and New Caledonia , and the codeshare agreement between
56 ANstar : They'd probably be capped at a 120-130 load for that distance.
57 NZ1 : That definitely wasn't me Koruman. AKL-NOU is marginal in my opinion. NZ1
58 DavidByrne : Has anyone ever travelled the Atlantic on a 752? Seems that more and more routes are getting these, and I doubt that they would if there was a signif
59 Cchan : At least a 757 has more toilets. On longer 737 flights, the most unpleasant place to sit is the last few rows, with a constant toilet queue in the ai
60 NZ107 : There still isn't any competition for AKL-PER so why is it necessary to put a widebody on this route if a 737 could make it? Why does it matter if th
61 Koruman : Frankly I can barely detect any difference between a 738 or 320 order, and I'm sure the best deal will prevail. But what's the hurry? NZ bought the 73
62 ANstar : Actually both QF and DJ would be seen as competitiors on the route with their 1 stop services.
63 777ER : Whats the difference about having more toilets? The B752 is bigger so naturally it needs more toilets. The same problem would happen on B757s due to
64 NZ107 : Even so, it's likely that they'd be narrowbody services too. QF also fly 737s to PER. Just that the hassle of changing planes, flights, terminals etc
65 Travelhound : On short flights is the fuel advantage of the NG 737's that much greater than the classics?
66 Zkpilot : Actually AFAIK NZ has actually said they haven't wanted to replace the aircraft as yet because the newer aircraft actually are heavier and so on a sh
67 Cchan : Haven't been on a 757 for a long time, but from memory, not all the toilets on a 757 are located at the rear, so it probably will help spread out the
68 ANstar : But lwts not also forget that 737 flights that long will be load restrcited.... so if a 7 hour 737 flight is operated with 130 pax then it is not as
69 SunriseValley : Very good point. According to Boeing tables the OEW of the 737-300 is shown as 72.5K pounds and the -700 and -800 as 83K and 91.3 respectively. That
70 AznMadSci : If NZ looks into the 738s, they could do what CO did and install a mid-cabin lavatory on a number of their 738s, 739s, and 739ERs.
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