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Qatar's Al-Baker: GTF A320 Would Kill CSeries  
User currently offline1GR8AIRLINE From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 8878 times:

It appears that Akbar al-Baker is back to "negotiation via press release" again.

ATW Daily News October 14, 2009

I wonder when/if he'll realize that everyone else sees these rants for just what they are (recall his railing about the A340-600 a few months ago), public attempts to get manufacturers to give him what he wants, vs. unbiased commentary on the merits of individual airplanes, engines, etc.?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTISTPAA727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 319 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 8856 times:

His rants frustrate me. Kill off the CSeries? Come on now. Flinging GTF under the A320 would not kill off the CSeries...technically, they are not direct competitors. As the article states...negotiation tactic as he knows Bombardier is in a corner and needs to secure additional orders from leading airlines.

Keep it in the board room and out of the press!



Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8626 times:



Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 1):
His rants frustrate me

count me in, he just wants Bombardier to give him a better price...

He loves telling manufacturers the error of their ways...A few weeks back he said if he was the CEO of Boeing "heads would be rolling" he was referring to all the delays with the 787 program....he has a good point, all these 787 delays are unacceptable, but he should be worried about Qatar, let Boeing worry about Boeing


User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1528 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8559 times:



Quoting 1GR8AIRLINE (Thread starter):
(recall his railing about the A340-600 a few months ago)

Indeed and those A340's are so shocking that they huff and puff their way double daily into LHR and have just been used for the GTL trial

One suspects the GTF will have a lively early life in service (as does every 1st gen engine) and with the airline industry as conservative as it is, sticking with proven technology on the A320 for some time to come is almost certainly the better option for Airbus



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7339 times:

Soooo.... Does that mean he's in the market for some Cseries then?

I don't really understand why else he would say such things out loud. Even if a GTF A320 was decided on tomorrow, it would probably not see the light before the Cseries, probably not even before the MRJ. As far as I know, P&W isn't even developing a GTF in that thrust range yet.

And as said above, the A320 isn't a Cseries competitor.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineTISTPAA727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 319 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4920 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
Does that mean he's in the market for some Cseries then?

They have been in negotiations for quite a long while. Who knows if he is just jerking Bombardier around or actually serious about the order. For quite some time he has been saying Bombardier won't meet all of his 'numbers' and until then he won't order. Not sure if this means price or specs or both (likely both).



Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5014 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Say what you want about the man and the viability and product of QR, but he is a man with very deep pockets ..... and having met him a few times, pretty brilliant too.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4243 times:



Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 1):
technically, they are not direct competitors



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
And as said above, the A320 isn't a Cseries competitor

Yes the A320 family is a direct CSeries competitor. And I don't mean the A318. The real world is not divided into neat segments in 20 seat increments! An airline considering the CSeries will also be considering NOT having the CSeries - and this alternative means flying a mix of other aircraft which WILL include either 737 or A320 series as well as some sort of "large RJ" (whether owned or contracted).

If an airline decides that E190s (or CRJ1000s, or MRJs) and A319/320s (or 73G/738s) cover their needs, those aircraft have directly displaced the CSeries. What an eventual re-engined A320 or 737 class aircraft would do is make this solution much more competitive than it is now.

And right now it is already debatable whether there really is a gap to be filled by the CSeries - regardless of new generation versions of the existing competitors - if only because the CSeries does not allow an operator to replace his "large RJs" (it is too big) and does not allow him to replace all his narrowbodies (it is too small).


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4232 times:



Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 2):
count me in, he just wants Bombardier to give him a better price...

Thanks Sherclock, where do we send you prize money?  Wink

Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 2):
A few weeks back he said if he was the CEO of Boeing "heads would be rolling" he was referring to all the delays with the 787 program....he has a good point, all these 787 delays are unacceptable, but he should be worried about Qatar, let Boeing worry about Boeing

By the transitivity property delays to Boeing are delays to QR. Given the scale of QR's order it's a critical issue. So really he has a right to rant.

Quoting Shankly (Reply 3):
Indeed and those A340's are so shocking that they huff and puff their way double daily into LHR and have just been used for the GTL trial

QR's issue with the 346s are twofold 1) they are not using them on the types of route for which they were optimized and 2) their dispatch reliability has been lacking.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
Soooo.... Does that mean he's in the market for some Cseries then?

Most certainly is and has been for a while.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 4):
And as said above, the A320 isn't a Cseries competitor.

Yet... the two lines will in time go head to head. It's an inevitability.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4216 times:

What makes me laugh about this guy ranting off is that he thinks people care about what he thinks.

Qatar is a nice airline but it isn't an airline with the status of a major European airline. It's an airline run by westerners for an Arab state that can't do it itself.

Buy the plane or don't buy the plane but keep your thoughts to yourself.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9836 posts, RR: 96
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 3852 times:
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Quoting TISTPAA727 (Reply 1):
Flinging GTF under the A320 would not kill off the CSeries...technically, they are not direct competitors

Although it's possible he makes these comments with the express intent of generating just that competition.

QR may be able to make a better economic case for a C-series than the current A320, but their operational modelling may show that an A320 with GTF would be a better bet.
It would almost certainly have better range capability, I would think.

Don't actually know, but I suspect that dismissing the comments may be as flawed as believing them verbatim.

Rgds


User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 3660 times:



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 6):
Say what you want about the man and the viability and product of QR, but he is a man with very deep pockets ..... and having met him a few times, pretty brilliant too.

Having met him many times too, brilliant is not a word I would use to describe him. Arrogant, egotistical, and irrational is more fitting. Give the man lots of money (because of his ties to the royal family) and it is a dangerous recipe for a megalomanic.

Until he is able to prove that he can run a profitable airline (which he apparently has no intention of conducting), he needs (in my opinion) to keep his public rhetoric in check. He has little to no respect in the industry, and quite frankly, he's irrelevant.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12419 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3511 times:
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I'd take this more seriously if QR had ever made an anual profit. Surprise, surprise, next year (2010) is when they expect to make money.  yawn 

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressReleasesMolt/idUSL0313438820070603

Search 'Qatar Airways Profit' and the PR releases are amusing. "On track in 2006" (ummm... no).

Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 2):
count me in, he just wants Bombardier to give him a better price...

Without a doubt.

Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 2):
but he should be worried about Qatar, let Boeing worry about Boeing

With 30 788's on order with an original EIS of 2011... I would be making noise. Today's delays will impact 2011 deliveries. He's probably trying to get a payment from Boeing too. I know Sherlock...

On topic, Pratt was very excited about putting the GTF of the A321 in 2001... Now? I'm not so sure. The airframe needs a refresh (more than the proposed winglets and wing root update). Not only that, as long as it is the A320, Pratt is bound by the IAE contract on the A320 model. They can re-engine the A318, A319, and A321, but not the A320.  Sad

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
QR may be able to make a better economic case for a C-series than the current A320, but their operational modelling may show that an A320 with GTF would be a better bet.
It would almost certainly have better range capability, I would think.

I 100% agree. A GTF should cut fuel burn 12%+ (not just due to the GTF, some is due to component improvements since the V2500 was developed). Note: The V2500 could be improved quite a bit. A new fan, low turbine, Integrated blade/rotor compressors...  cloudnine  But I'd prefer a GTF.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5014 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3335 times:



Quoting Airzim (Reply 11):
Having met him many times too, brilliant is not a word I would use to describe him. Arrogant, egotistical, and irrational is more fitting. Give the man lots of money (because of his ties to the royal family) and it is a dangerous recipe for a megalomanic.

Until he is able to prove that he can run a profitable airline (which he apparently has no intention of conducting), he needs (in my opinion) to keep his public rhetoric in check. He has little to no respect in the industry, and quite frankly, he's irrelevant.

= We will have to agree to disagree. You're assuming he actually cares that QR run a profit. Like other of the "mine is bigger than yours" players of the region, the man could care less. You might ask him to "prove" his credentials for a profitable airline ... but that is not his mandate. Why should he be judged by it? I am not saying it is right or wrong ... I am saying it is irrelevant.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 9):

Qatar is a nice airline but it isn't an airline with the status of a major European airline. It's an airline run by westerners for an Arab state that can't do it itself.

= You can say what you want ... but remember "major European airlines" are no longer the benchmark. Moreover, see the people lining up to work for them.

Don't get me wrong ... I think QR is highly overrated and their ground product at DOH is abysmal. However, it does not matter. The man has money and what he says does scare the manufacturers.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1528 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3222 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 8):
QR's issue with the 346s are twofold 1) they are not using them on the types of route for which they were optimized and 2) their dispatch reliability has been lacking.

With regard to point 1) agree, except this is QR's fault not that of the A346. If BA put 777's on the Manchester Shuttle run they would not be using them on the types of route for which they were optimized! With regard to point 2) where are the stats. The QR 346's are regular as clockwork into LHR

Quoting Babybus (Reply 9):
Qatar is a nice airline but it isn't an airline with the status of a major European airline. It's an airline run by westerners for an Arab state that can't do it itself.

Utter nonsense. It is far superior to virtually every airline in Europe apart from perhaps BA



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineAtpcliff From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Hi!

Qatar is looking at buying the "C".

The "C" is designed for two-class seating for between 100-150 seats. That is the same size, or slightly bigger than, the ERJ-190/195, the CRJ-900 and 1000, the smaller 737s, and the Airbus -318, -319 and -320.

Airbus has already done tests with the GTF on a testbed Airbus aircraft. They have been considering re-engining the -320 family with the GTF for several years.

Boeing, potentially, could also look into re-engining their 737s.

The GTF, according to Pratt and his brother, is easily scalable, so could power -777s and -380s.

cliff
NBO



TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6840 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3096 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 9):
Qatar is a nice airline but it isn't an airline with the status of a major European airline.

What a bizarre statement. How many European airlines have placed or could place a single order for 80 A350s or even 30 787s (far less both)? If I were Airbus or Boeing (or Bombardier) I'd be taking QR very seriously.


User currently offlineFlyingwaeldar From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2009, 108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2925 times:



Quoting Shankly (Reply 14):
It is far superior to virtually every airline in Europe apart from perhaps BA

So you're saying BA is far and beyond the best European airline? Most people I know only take BA as a last resort and prefer the likes of Swiss, Lufthansa or AF / KL.

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
What a bizarre statement. How many European airlines have placed or could place a single order for 80 A350s or even 30 787s (far less both)? If I were Airbus or Boeing (or Bombardier) I'd be taking QR very seriously.

Placing orders for planes and taking delivery of them is quite different, let's wait and see.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2852 times:



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 6):
and having met him a few times, pretty brilliant too.

I have also met this man and brilliant is not what I seen.
I know manufacture reps that would rather go to a dentist appointment than meet with him despite the huge amount of money that QR can generate for them. It is widely talked about among these reps how they feel QR cares more about the manufactures "schmoozing" them than they do the actual numbers and operational efficiencies.
(Schmoozing might not be the correct word but they like people to "make a fuss" over them, that is the kind of point I am trying to make, just cant get the right wording at this time of night/morning!)

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 13):
= We will have to agree to disagree. You're assuming he actually cares that QR run a profit. Like other of the "mine is bigger than yours" players of the region, the man could care less. You might ask him to "prove" his credentials for a profitable airline ... but that is not his mandate. Why should he be judged by it? I am not saying it is right or wrong ... I am saying it is irrelevant.

Um this is exactly what would make him someone that people would have no respect for in this industry. It is not hard to order big planes and have them fly somewhere, I think even most of the kids here on Anet could figure that one out. Being able to run an airline that makes a profit or at the least enough money to sustain itself is where some form of skill and business since comes into play.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 13):
= You can say what you want ... but remember "major European airlines" are no longer the benchmark. Moreover, see the people lining up to work for them.

Yes in fact you see very long lines of people lining up to work for them.
Which airline are you talking about that cannot be selective about their hiring practices because of the lack of applicants? Please enlighten us!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 13):
Don't get me wrong ... I think QR is highly overrated and their ground product at DOH is abysmal. However, it does not matter. The man has money and what he says does scare the manufacturers.

I don't think he really "scares" them. He might have had more influence before he started playing these games but again he is kind of a joke among people who know about his rants. (At this point anyone who follows this industry)
Do you remember the crap he pulled with Boeing over the 777? Yeah a JOKE!

Quoting PM (Reply 16):
What a bizarre statement. How many European airlines have placed or could place a single order for 80 A350s or even 30 787s (far less both)? If I were Airbus or Boeing (or Bombardier) I'd be taking QR very seriously.

Sorry but that European order is much more important to the manufacture than a QR order. When they add an order from the likes of BA, LH, ect it is an order placed after careful consideration and is well thought out and planned. This is an order that gives the entire program the approval of the industries most talented minds and is something that will provide a boost to sales worldwide. These aircraft are also MUCH more likely to be delivered.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1528 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2818 times:



Quoting Flyingwaeldar (Reply 17):
So you're saying BA is far and beyond the best European airline? Most people I know only take BA as a last resort and prefer the likes of Swiss, Lufthansa or AF / KL

Slightly off topic, but yes:
AF - has lost four airframes in 20 year...an unacceptable accident rate for a major airline (in my view). And innovation at AF is...squeezing one more seat per row in economy
LH - give me a break. Zero innovation and premium products that are always 10 years behind the likes of BA, QR and EK. And my big bug bear with them...lounges and aircraft decorated solely in the most mind numbingly dull shades of grey. OK planes are on time, but I also want to arrive with a smile on my face. BA's transaltantic business cabins are often well populated with Germans
KL - See LH, but admittedly without the grey
LX - A niche player. How am I gonna get to Cape Town?

You could not put any of the above in a boxing match with QR as it would just not be fair



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2783 times:



Quoting Shankly (Reply 19):
LH - give me a break. Zero innovation and premium products that are always 10 years behind the likes of BA, QR and

I know Lufthansa Technik adds ZERO innovation to the horrible airline....  Yeah sure

Quoting Shankly (Reply 19):
EK. And my big bug bear with them...lounges and aircraft decorated solely in the most mind numbingly dull shades of grey.

Your right you would never catch me flying in this nasty grey dump....  Yeah sure


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You cant be serious about your comments, Right?



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1528 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2774 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 20):
Your right you would never catch me flying in this nasty grey dump....

You mis-read my statement. Read again from the start and read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote:

Quoting Shankly (Reply 19):
...that are always 10 years behind the likes of BA, QR and EK. And my big bug...



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 20):
Lufthansa Technik

Agree, great organisation...but all that expertise adds zero to my LH flying experience



L1011 - P F M
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