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NW/DL Crew Bases Post-SOC  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3186 posts, RR: 13
Posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

Hey all,

With the SOC coming relatively soon, I'm wondering how many shifts we may see in crew bases. Especially with this huge new round of international routes just announced, I guess a few are pretty obvious:

767ER - SEA
777 - DTW
777 - LAX (maybe...)

As for the domestic side:

A320 - SLC
MD80 - MSP
757/767 - SEA

Despite DL separating their domestic and international 757/767 crews (training, scheduling, charts carried, etc), SEA will be big enough that it could still potentially see a need for both bases. Definitely an international base though, with 767's flying to NRT, KIX, PEK, and AMS. Plus, post-SOC, they can use the SEA-based pilots to do the interport 757 flying out of NRT, as well as the PDX transpac.

As for 777's in DTW, DL would be completely insane to *not* do that. If they insisted on keeping only the ATL base, they'd essentially have to pay all their crews to fly ATL-HKG, ATL-PVG, and ATL-ICN, as opposed to just opening the base in DTW.

777's in LAX is a bit of a toss-up I think. I know LAX-NRT is going to either 10x or 11x weekly over the summer, but I'm not sure if it's the A332 or the 777 that runs the daily flight, as opposed to the augment flight.

On the domestic side, A320's in SLC and MD80's in MSP has been discussed quite a bit before so no need to go into that here. Anyhow, all of the above is a grand majority of speculation on my part, so if anyone knows of anything official, please do post it!!


Thanks in advance for all responses





A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8893 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Agree with pretty much everything you state. SEA will most likely get a 767 International base now; however, I'm not sure if there'd be enough domestic for a 757/767D base - does NW base any flight deck crews out of SEA, and if so, what equipment?

Agree 100% with DTW as a 777 base - the 777 will allow NW to do a good bit more DTW-Asia flying without routing via NRT.

MSP and SLC are spot on as well.

The only other thing I can see happening for shorter-term is ATL getting an A330 base, especially if Delta were to consider routing some of the A330s to South America. A route like ATL-GIG in the winter might do quite well on the A330-300 - high on seats in the back, lower on seats in the front and can haul a lot of stuff down below.

Also, what are the current Delta/Northwest flight crew bases? More as a point of reference to this discussion, as I have a general feel for the Delta ones, but there are some cases I'm not sure on, especially when it comes to 757/767 Domestic vs. International.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3748 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
does NW base any flight deck crews out of SEA, and if so, what equipment?

330 is all I believe.



yep.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3186 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3738 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
does NW base any flight deck crews out of SEA, and if so, what equipment?

Currently the A330. Used to have 747-200 out of there, way back in the day.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
The only other thing I can see happening for shorter-term is ATL getting an A330 base

Allegedly the A330 guys were told to expect a JFK base. The only reason I can think of is maybe DL wants to try sending the A330-200's on the 12+ block routes like AMM, CAI, IST.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
Also, what are the current Delta/Northwest flight crew bases?

Northwest I can tell you with 100% certainty, Delta I'm not very sure about so there may be a few incorrectly listed as well as some left out.

NW:
DC9 - DTW, MSP, MEM
A320 - DTW, MSP, MEM
757 - DTW, MSP
A330 - SEA, DTW, MSP
747-200 - ANC, MSP
747-400 - DTW

DL:
MD80 - SLC, CVG, ATL, NYC (and I *think* there is MCO, TPA, or something like that)
737 - LAX, SLC, CVG, ATL, NYC
757/767 - LAX, ATL, NYC
757ER/767ER - ATL, NYC
767-400 - ATL
777 - ATL (used to have JFK)


Since the NW A330 base in SEA has been drawn down quite a bit from it's previous size, and the 767-300 isn't a fenced aircraft type, I'd imagine that an eventual SEA 767ER base would be predominantly NW crews given how it would be open bidding. Adding to that, those will probably be the first 767's that ex-NW crews routinely operate.

Also, does anyone know if there are plans for a reopening of a HNL pilot base?? The only type that would make sense is 757/767, with flights to SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and SLC.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3700 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
(and I *think* there is MCO, TPA, or something like that)

nope. the only citys that have Pilot bases anymore are ATL,NYC(all three airports)CVG,SLC and LAX. They have been pushing for a BOS and DFW base. There are alot of people(DFW is the highest) in those two that have to be based in other citys. The day we see the DFW base come back is the day i take over the world. I thought the NYC 777 base was still there?
Also note the M90 does NOT share pilots with the M88. The M90 bases are SLC and CVG
Things i have heard is
SLC-32S, MSP-M88/M90, LAX-777. ATL-330 and NYC 764.
SEA/DTW are being looked at but everything they have told the pilots is be ready to DH. The will use some of these routes to fill in for other citys that have lost flights and its cheaper than opening a base. I have heard SEA will get pilots for LAX and DTW will pull from ATL.



yep.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

FYI- don't be chomping at the bit at a huge amount of crew bases.

The first ones you will see will be the elimination of the M88/90 base in SLC and moving that to MSP.

An equal amount of positions will open in SLC for a 320 base there.



No other crew bases will open until at least late 2010.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

OK I find this kind of stuff very interesting, however not working in the industry I really don't have anything to add, just two questions.

First, why does DL separate their domestic and international 767/757 ops? Wouldn't it be better to just have pilots trained as 767/757 and allow them to fly where ever the aircraft are flown?

Secondly, why does DL separate the MD-88 and MD-90 and now DC-9? Aren't they all the same type rating and once again couldn't DL allow the pilots to fly all three types on all routes.

Seems like there are some efficiencies that could be gained by doing this. But I don't do this stuff so maybe I am missing something.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3186 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3640 times:



Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
why does DL separate their domestic and international 767/757 ops?

So crews don't have to carry an extreme amount of charts with them. Also, just in subfleet differences training there is a significant difference between the international birds and the domestic birds. If they combined all 757, 757 intl, 767, 767 intl ops, it would be extremely difficult for the crews. Just for reference -

Domestic 757/767:
757-232
757-212 (ex ATA)
757-251 (5500 series)
757-251 (5600 series)
757-351
767-322 (PW motors)
767-322 (GE motors)

International 757/767:
757-251 (5600 series)
757-231 (ex TWA)
767-332ER (PW motors)
767-332ER (GE motors)
767-3P6ER
767-324ER

Combining all those into one would be huge. Besides, flying international is vastly different from domestic. American does this with their 757/767 crews as well, with the bulk of their crews being on domestic but having a small portion of them international qualified.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
Secondly, why does DL separate the MD-88 and MD-90

They don't. All crews bid "MD88" as it appears on the bidsheets. I'm not sure if they separate M80 and M90 trips so as to not "intermix" in the same trip, but the crews are most definitely one and the same.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
and now DC-9

DC9 is a completely different aircraft from the MD80 and MD90. Separate type rating, and a VASTLY different cockpit.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3608 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):


Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
why does DL separate their domestic and international 767/757 ops?

So crews don't have to carry an extreme amount of charts with them. Also, just in subfleet differences training there is a significant difference between the international birds and the domestic birds. If they combined all 757, 757 intl, 767, 767 intl ops, it would be extremely difficult for the crews. Just for reference -

Domestic 757/767:
757-232
757-212 (ex ATA)
757-251 (5500 series)
757-251 (5600 series)
757-351
767-322 (PW motors)
767-322 (GE motors)

International 757/767:
757-251 (5600 series)
757-231 (ex TWA)
767-332ER (PW motors)
767-332ER (GE motors)
767-3P6ER
767-324ER

Combining all those into one would be huge. Besides, flying international is vastly different from domestic. American does this with their 757/767 crews as well, with the bulk of their crews being on domestic but having a small portion of them international qualified.

But surely the cockpits are not significantly different. And for international verse domestic, they don't do that with the MD-80 or 737. Also is having a pilot group that large a problem? I mean companies like SW and such surely have equally large pilot groups. I am just curious.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
DC9 is a completely different aircraft from the MD80 and MD90. Separate type rating, and a VASTLY different cockpit.

And according to the FAA (AC-61-89E) the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90 all have the same type rating so in theory the pilots could operate all three types.

Now naturally this might not be what the airlines want, some airlines have different pilot groups for the CRJ-200 and the CRJ700/900 which also have the same type rating.

I guess a bigger question might be why do airlines not divide pilot groups up by type rating? I feel as though I am drifting off topic here so I will leave it at that.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Transpac, you are off on your description of the 75/76 domestic split.

All 75/76 pilots are qualified to operate all 757 and 767-300 ships. ALL.

The split of the categories is slowly going away, but it is split simply due to efficiency. "Domestic pilots" don't go south of 3 degrees of the equator or do any augmented ops, or ops that require a plotting chart. "ER" pilots are qualified on everything. 50% of the ER bid package this last month was domestic flying.


As far as the MD-88/90. THere are very few 90 aircraft, thus requiring very few qualified 90 pilots. No reason to qual the huge ATL category on an airplane that they would rarely see.

Between the 88/90 and DC-9..... you are talking about a completely different aircraft. Same type rating, but that is as far as it goes. I would NOT want to swap between the two.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3607 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
They don't. All crews bid "MD88" as it appears on the bidsheets. I'm not sure if they separate M80 and M90 trips so as to not "intermix" in the same trip, but the crews are most definitely one and the same.

Also incorrect, M90 qualified pilots have trps that flip flop between the 2 aircraft types, the same way myself as a 767/757 pilot can see any 767 or any 757 type on any leg in any trip.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3602 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 10):

Thanks for the clarification as this makes much more sense.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3594 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 11):
Also incorrect, M90 qualified pilots have trps that flip flop between the 2 aircraft types, the same way myself as a 767/757 pilot can see any 767 or any 757 type on any leg in any trip.

I believe (and this is a question) M90 pilots can fly the 88 but not all 88 pilots and fly the 90. Is this right? Also aren't all the 90 pilots based in SLC and CVG?



yep.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3580 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
I believe (and this is a question) M90 pilots can fly the 88 but not all 88 pilots and fly the 90. Is this right? Also aren't all the 90 pilots based in SLC and CVG?

You have come correct.  Smile



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
Domestic 757/767:
757-232
757-212 (ex ATA)
757-251 (5500 series)
757-251 (5600 series)
757-351
767-322 (PW motors)
767-322 (GE motors)

International 757/767:
757-251 (5600 series)
757-231 (ex TWA)
767-332ER (PW motors)
767-332ER (GE motors)
767-3P6ER
767-324ER

Just for clarification, you are overall correct in your breakdown of what we consider "domestic" and "ER" planes, although I dont believe all the 5600 series n-dub jets are "ER" qualified. Also, all the 757-300 series jets ARE "ER" qualified. (etops birds)

That doesnt change the post single operating certificate qualifications of the pilots. All pilots will be qualified on all aircraft. (currently pre-DL pilots are restricted to pre-DL ships, and pre-NW pilots are restricted to pre-NW ships)

[Edited 2009-10-23 00:30:22]


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3422 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
So crews don't have to carry an extreme amount of charts with them

It actually has to do with the fact Delta not wanting to spend the money on training all the guys for international ops.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3186 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3033 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 15):
although I dont believe all the 5600 series n-dub jets are "ER" qualified.

They'd essentially have to be. Most of the 757's over in Asia are essentially "based" over there, and see *very* little to no rotation with the mainland fleet. So, it's going to be 767ER crews flying them, of course, especially if there is to be an eventually SEA-767ER base.

Besides, in addition to the NRT-based birds (75X is old designation, idk the new one), the 75A's (again old designation) used to frequently do TATL flights. Under the DL system of doing business, I'm pretty sure that NW 756's don't do TATL runs anymore and all of them are now in the NRT system flying to SGN, TPE, ICN, PUS, etc.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2962 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18):
They'd essentially have to be. Most of the 757's over in Asia are essentially "based" over there, and see *very* little to no rotation with the mainland fleet. So, it's going to be 767ER crews flying them, of course, especially if there is to be an eventually SEA-767ER base.

Most any plane that says "ETOPS" on the nose gear, we Deltoids consider it an "ER" aircraft. The only exception really are the 1400 series 767-300s which have the big pratt engines, but the small center tank.

I imagine the 757-300s will end up in the same category.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3186 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2857 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 19):
Most any plane that says "ETOPS" on the nose gear, we Deltoids consider it an "ER" aircraft. The only exception really are the 1400 series 767-300s which have the big pratt engines, but the small center tank.

The 1400's are 763A's, not ER's, right?

Anyhow, 5635 though 5649 are all ETOPS-180 capable, though only some are currently maintained to that. The rest are only EOW-90 standards, but I'm sure could easily be brought up to ETOPS-180.

5650 through 5657 are only capable of EOW-90, as they lack some of the equipment required for the full ETOPS-180.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 19):
I imagine the 757-300s will end up in the same category.

Yes, 5801 through 5816 are all ETOPS-180 certified.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 2817 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 21):
The 1400's are 763A's, not ER's, right?

right. the ones that do west-coast HNL/OGG runs.



yep.
User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 2817 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
I believe (and this is a question) M90 pilots can fly the 88 but not all 88 pilots and fly the 90. Is this right? Also aren't all the 90 pilots based in SLC and CVG?

This used to be the case but not anymore. As of earlier this year, all M88/M90 pilots are cross trained and can fly either now.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
NW:
DC9 - DTW, MSP, MEM
A320 - DTW, MSP, MEM
757 - DTW, MSP
A330 - SEA, DTW, MSP
747-200 - ANC, MSP
747-400 - DTW

DL:
MD80 - SLC, CVG, ATL, NYC (and I *think* there is MCO, TPA, or something like that)
737 - LAX, SLC, CVG, ATL, NYC
757/767 - LAX, ATL, NYC
757ER/767ER - ATL, NYC
767-400 - ATL
777 - ATL (used to have JFK)

SLC has a 757/767 base.
CVG has a 757ER/767ER base.
JFK still has a 777 base.
No pilot bases in MCO or TPA.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2714 times:



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 23):
This used to be the case but not anymore. As of earlier this year, all M88/M90 pilots are cross trained and can fly either now.

I don't believe this is correct. ATL and NYC are still pure md-88 bases.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2582 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 24):
Quoting Jkudall (Reply 23):
This used to be the case but not anymore. As of earlier this year, all M88/M90 pilots are cross trained and can fly either now.

I don't believe this is correct. ATL and NYC are still pure md-88 bases.

XFSUgimpLB41X is absolutely correct. Only SLC and CVG pilots can fly MD-90 aircraft; they can fly either MD-88 or MD-90's; NYC and ATL pilots cannot fly the MD-90.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2560 times:



Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
Secondly, why does DL separate the MD-88 and MD-90 and now DC-9? Aren't they all the same type rating and once again couldn't DL allow the pilots to fly all three types on all routes.

It is the same type rating, just like the 737-100 and 737-900 share the same type rating. At various times in my career I have flown the DC-9, glass MD-80, and MD-90, and the differences between the DC-9 and the EFIS 80/90 are so large as to make combining the pilot groups unsafe. The automation, instrumentation, and procedural differences are astronomical, so much so that it would clearly be extremely undesirable at best.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
and now DC-9

DC9 is a completely different aircraft from the MD80 and MD90. Separate type rating, and a VASTLY different cockpit.

They have the same type rating; the cockpits are similar but significant differences exist, particularly in level of automation.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 9):
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 8):
DC9 is a completely different aircraft from the MD80 and MD90. Separate type rating, and a VASTLY different cockpit.

And according to the FAA (AC-61-89E) the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90 all have the same type rating so in theory the pilots could operate all three types.

In theory, you are correct.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 10):
Between the 88/90 and DC-9..... you are talking about a completely different aircraft. Same type rating, but that is as far as it goes. I would NOT want to swap between the two.

I agree with you 100%! Swapping between a DC-9 and an MD-90 would be asking for trouble!

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
I believe (and this is a question) M90 pilots can fly the 88 but not all 88 pilots and fly the 90. Is this right? Also aren't all the 90 pilots based in SLC and CVG?

Exactly correct! How are you doing L1011man?  Smile


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2820 posts, RR: 45
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2536 times:



Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 8):
I guess a bigger question might be why do airlines not divide pilot groups up by type rating? I feel as though I am drifting off topic here so I will leave it at that.

A good question, and here's the quick answer. At most airlines, pilots bid for their seat (747 Captain, A-320 FO, etc.) by seniority. As they move through their career and get more senior, they are entitled to fly better paying equipment in a better paying seat (i.e. Captain). During that process (this does vary somewhat by country, I am giving a US example) the pilot will fly a variety of aircraft and collect a variety of type ratings. I currently have seven of them, so what does my airline let me do? Whatever I bid that my seniority can hold. Hope that helps.


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