OP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 2 Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11919 times:
VS is in the process of entering into legal action against several airlines (DL, AC, 9W and CX) who have installed the "Herringbone" seat in their J cabins, a design which VS claims it patented in 2003. The manufacturer, Contour, went ahead and sold seats with that design to other airlines after initially manufacturing them for VS' Upper Class.
FlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1245 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11739 times:
This is just like Apple trying to sue HTC over the mult-touch interface. If find it hard to believe that they will be succesful with this suit.
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Cloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2346 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11689 times:
Has anyone got any info/link as to what has actually been patented? Is it the herringbone layout or the design of the seat and which part of the design? The devil is in the detail. All the arguments will be made around the semantics of the filed documents.
Planesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 749 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10919 times:
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 2): Has anyone got any info/link as to what has actually been patented? Is it the herringbone layout or the design of the seat and which part of the design? The devil is in the detail. All the arguments will be made around the semantics of the filed documents.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2295 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10691 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1): This is just like Apple trying to sue HTC over the mult-touch interface. If find it hard to believe that they will be succesful with this suit.
The argument doesn't hold water: Apple has over 200 US patents on the multi-touch interface found on the iPhone and iPod touch, and even more worldwide.
Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 3): I think Air New Zealand entered into a formal agreement with VS to utilise the design.
If such is the case on NZ licensing VS's patent, I expect VS to win the case. Typically, I'm no fan of SRB's tactics (case in point: "NOWAYBA/AA"), but I am a fan of intellectual property rights. Look at Ford Motor Company: they want to sell Volvo Cars, but don't want to sell them to China's Geely due to intellectual property concerns despite an extremely high bid. Imagine Geely swiping FoMoCo trade secrets, producing a car identical to a European Ford Mondeo, and selling it in the EU for 35% less. Bravo on Ford!
Gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2667 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10478 times:
Surely the manufacturers or the people that sold these seats to the other airlines should be the ones being taken to court!
2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 897 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10095 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6): Surely the manufacturers or the people that sold these seats to the other airlines should be the ones being taken to court!
This could get stickier yet.... Being granted a patent does not mean that you actually have a valid patent.
So; did VS actually design that seat pattern - then ask the Mfr to fabricate it to provided key design dwgs or specifications; or did VS ask the seat Mfr to design a seat along a concept.
If the later (and I suspect the later) then it is the seat Mfr who actually designed the seat and who has the legal option to patent the design (which they could sell to VS). Should this be the case - then the court will likely rule that VS did not invent the design and thus its patent is invalid.
My guess is that the defendents will file motions challanging the VS patent validity. This will take years to resolve.
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4520 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9594 times:
Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 3): I think Air New Zealand entered into a formal agreement with VS to utilise the design.
Yes NZ did license the seat from VS. As such it may be that NZ also has a case against these other airlines, or is pressuring VS to take action against these other airlines as NZ is paying for the license.
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 7954 posts, RR: 98 Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9274 times:
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8): As such it may be that NZ also has a case against these other airlines, or is pressuring VS to take action against these other airlines as NZ is paying for the license.
Legally, either VS takes action against the other airlines or NZ could declare they should get a refund... This will be interesting.
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 7): My guess is that the defendents will file motions challanging the VS patent validity. This will take years to resolve.
I doubt this will be resolved. Not to mention is there any prior art? I bet someone will find a sketch online that pre-dates the VS patent. If that is the case, they could rule the patent invalid.
DL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9208 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1): This is just like Apple trying to sue HTC over the mult-touch interface. If find it hard to believe that they will be succesful with this suit.
Going by your example it would be a successful suit since apple has hundreds of patents worldwide, many of which HTC is violating.
Now if Virgin did get it patented and the seat manufacturer is the one who went ahead and sold it to other airlines they shouldn't Virgin be suing the seat manufacturer?
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4715 posts, RR: 21 Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9188 times:
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 7): If the later (and I suspect the later) then it is the seat Mfr who actually designed the seat and who has the legal option to patent the design (which they could sell to VS). Should this be the case - then the court will likely rule that VS did not invent the design and thus its patent is invalid.
That is not necessarily so. The contract between Virgin and the mfr could require that any patents be the property of Virgin.
Such agreements are common, though many of the top firms in several fields will refuse to work on such contracts.
Qqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 16 Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8072 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6): Surely the manufacturers or the people that sold these seats to the other airlines should be the ones being taken to court!
If I'm not mistaken, SRB already sued the manufacturer and lost the case. Which is perplexing then why he'd go after those who bought the seats. Perhaps there was something in the ruling that left door open to suing those that purchased the supposedly patented design.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7886 times:
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5): Imagine Geely swiping FoMoCo trade secrets, producing a car identical to a European Ford Mondeo, and selling it in the EU for 35% less. Bravo on Ford!
Well that would be the free market at work, forcing Ford to compete with competitors.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 13035 posts, RR: 55 Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7239 times:
Yeah, I think the issue is not whether the design and layout are patentable (they certainly are), it's about whether the manufacturer or Virgin Group have the rights.
I don't think that being the first to purchase a design gives you the right to exclusivity. In fact, I think there are laws against that in many cases. That's why CO can't sue DL for flying 787's.
Knid From New Zealand, joined Aug 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7047 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 9): I doubt this will be resolved. Not to mention is there any prior art? I bet someone will find a sketch online that pre-dates the VS patent. If that is the case, they could rule the patent invalid.
The herringbone layout of seats on aircraft dates back to the flying boat days, does that make a difference to the patent?
Mmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 317 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6826 times:
Quoting Mikey72 (Reply 15): A thread about VS, 14 posts so far and not a single mention of....bee ay !!
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5): Typically, I'm no fan of SRB's tactics (case in point: "NOWAYBA/AA"),
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5884 times:
What a joke. Delta should sue him for stealing the Song idea and calling it Virgin America.
Evomutant From Canada, joined May 2006, 365 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5457 times:
Well, the patent has already been declared valid by the English High court, at the same time as they dismissed the claim for infringement bought against Contour. So it will be a simple "did they copy" argument. Any challenge to the validity of the patent would only come on appeal, if the airlines lost the case.
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4775 times:
Quoting Sevenheavy (Reply 19): I know. Same aircraft, same routes, same two class on board service, same hub, same business model....
Have I missed anything?
Yes. You missed that Virgin America is basically Song with a first class section. VA even hired many of those responsible for Song as the initial cadre. Just think it's a bit of a joke that he would have the nerve to try and sue Delta after such a blatant rip off.
Knid From New Zealand, joined Aug 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4413 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 21): You missed that Virgin America is basically Song with a first class section.
The only real similarities that I can see are that both are/were airlines, and both decided they wanted a different style of service. However the point of difference they aimed for is markedly different.
Silentbob From Vatican City, joined Aug 2006, 1461 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4272 times:
Quoting Knid (Reply 16): The herringbone layout of seats on aircraft dates back to the flying boat days, does that make a difference to the patent?
Prior use is one of the things that often results in patents being thrown out.
Quoting Evomutant (Reply 20): Well, the patent has already been declared valid by the English High court, at the same time as they dismissed the claim for infringement bought against Contour. So it will be a simple "did they copy" argument. Any challenge to the validity of the patent would only come on appeal, if the airlines lost the case.
I'm not familiar with the English system but the case would be argued in its entirety in the US. The prior judgment would be included in the VS case, but the lawyers would be permitted to argue why it was/was not applicable in this case.
The seat manufacturer could have a restraint of trade case against VS though. If they are unable to sell seats that they designed to any other airlines because of the filing, it could get very interesting.
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1247 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3961 times:
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 2): Is it the herringbone layout or the design of the seat and which part of the design? The devil is in the detail. All the arguments will be made around the semantics of the filed documents.
While not an expert in patent law, I find it difficult to believe that an idea so general as the basic herringbone configuration could be patented. Perhaps the specific design and configuration of the actual seat, but not the diagonal placement, certainly.
That would be like designing the first airplane, and getting a patent so that nobody else may design an airplane. I don't think you can do that. They only may not copy YOUR airplane.
Quoting Knid (Reply 16): The herringbone layout of seats on aircraft dates back to the flying boat days, does that make a difference to the patent?
I would say so. The "idea" pre-existed.
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25 RoseFlyer: I don't think that is appropriate. NZ has the exact same seat with just a different color of leather. All the other airlines have a different seat th
26 Lightsaber: ok... that does make a difference. Lightsaber
27 Etoile: You're making hundreds of assumptions. See reply 7. The examiners at the USPTO are incentivized to grant patents.
28 Etoile: You can't patent the idea of an airplane (i.e., a heavier-than-air flying machine). But the Wright brothers sure did get patents on their airplane th
29 FlyDeltaJets87: VS should be sued for instituting this awful seating layout. I prefer my window seat to well, allow me to face out the window, but maybe I'm missing s
30 Luv2cattlecall: Not quite; the free market involves protection from IP theft; Geely literally copied Ford's engineering, to the point where body panels and doors wer
31 Luv2cattlecall: In theory, it's because every seat has aisle access...It's also a great way for an airline to lose my business when the gf and I are traveling somewh
32 767ER: I agree 100%. I fly NZ in J all the time. The layout is great for overnight flights but daytime flights are shocking.
33 Viscount724: The big advantage of the herringbone layout is that every passenger has direct acces to an aisle, without having to disturb another passenger (often
34 Sevenheavy: Exactly........I guess the sarcasm got lost in translation again
35 Etoile: All this is offpoint. Go back to reply 4 and read the case. This matter has nothing to do with the herringbone layout, which the appeals court noted
36 Sydscott: So, just to clarify the current position; 1. SRB failed to get his hands on BD with LH, apparently, all but ignoring him; 2. SRB is still losing serio
37 Zkpilot: I'm kinda curious as to where you are flying to on NZ because almost all of NZ's routes are overwater (except LHR flights and part of PER flight), so
38 CB97: On the 777 AC has a panel the drops down between the two centre seats so you can talk to your travel partner, although you are still facing away from
39 Richard28: Could be worth knowing exatcly what patents we are talking about here.. I've found this link which gives some details info on the patents on the Upper
40 767ER: LAX LHR LAX. Love the views on the LHR LAX flight Agreed - 90% of NZ long haul flights are overwater and overnight which is not that exciting.
41 Dynkrisolo: About a year ago, a guy from one of the airlines listed above specifically said to me: "thanks to Virgin for the seat design that they forgot to pate
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I doubt this will be resolved. Not to mention is there any prior art? I bet someone will find a sketch online that pre-dates the VS patent. If that is the case, they could rule the patent invalid.
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