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Boeing Completes Detailed Design On 787 Wing Fix  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16345 times:

News on the wingfix. The previous thread is overloaded with 320 replies on various topics and not updated for 3 days so I guess a fresh Topic is better than adding new developments.
(Previous topic : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4579990/ )

Anyway Jon reports Boeing engineers have completed detailed design and computer validation of the final aspects of the 787 wing fix.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeing-completes-design-and-va.html

Installation on #1 and the test frame is underway.

http://blog.flightstory.net/wp-content/uploads/787-structural-tests.jpg
photo : flightstory.net

I'm afraid the first flight planning is getting "ambitious" again with all the installation / testing to be done prior..

[Edited 2009-10-27 03:40:13 by keesje]

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16275 times:

I think they will do it this time. Surely another delay to the 787 prog will be too embarrassing for a company known to under promise and over-deliver ?

I wonder if any of the Boeing top management would be willing to put their butt on the line and bet on the first flight timing like Enders at Airbus did with the deliveries of the A380?


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16237 times:

Finally! Let us hope that they get them installed within 3-4 weeks. I am holding my breath as I really hope that first 787 flight will be in 2009, rather than 2010


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineTropical From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16217 times:

So that leaves about two months to

- complete the fabrication of the final parts of the fix and ship them to Everett

- installation aboard the static frame

- full testing and validation

- while presumably installing the fix concurrently on ZA001 as well


Can it be done before year end? It might be touch and go but I think Boeing has a fair chance, if there are no further hiccups. Interesting times ahead.


User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16201 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
News on the wingfix. The previous thread is overloaded with 320 replies on various topics and not updated for 3 days so I guess a fresh Topic is better than adding new developments.
(Previous topic : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4579990/ )

Thanks, part 2 of the thread was still very much being discussed but it went all a bit off-topic unfortunately. So hopefully we can stay on topic for a little longer in this thread.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I'm afraid the first flight planning is getting "ambitious" again with all the installation / testing to be done prior..

You may very well be right again. Quote from Jon's blog: "Boeing declined to say how long the final fittings would take to fabricate, but that they would be ready "soon"." And here is where I can see the most critical bottleneck, to be honest. I'm quite confident that Boeings solution works and that it will pass the tests, but they may be a tad optimistic with delivery times of their latest revision.

But frankly, first flight in December or January won't make that much difference to me, as long as they can get it to EIS in Q4 2010.

(edit: typos)

[Edited 2009-10-27 03:57:27]


146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16176 times:



Quoting Tropical (Reply 3):

I agree that it seems doable. I guess fabrication can be predictable (for Boeing at least) and by now they might have a good idea on how long installation will take. I'm crossing my fingers as far as testing and as you say, no further hiccups.

Regards,
GB



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16153 times:



Quoting Tropical (Reply 3):
Interesting times ahead.

It reminds me about one year ago (or was it two years ago?) when the FF was also scheduled for the end of the year: I see myself already sneaking secretly with my laptop into the bathroom to check the latest developments about the FF during the Christmas holidays. Ok, I will use the remaining time to learn some good excuses when they knock on the door...


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16152 times:
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Well, that is some positive news from the B787 front at last.  Smile Now let's hope the rest of the installation of the fix on the planes goes smooth so that we can still see the B787 fly for the first time in 2009 instead of 2010. On a PR side the year 2009 looks much better then the year 2010.  Wink

I am still curious about the complete schedule of the flight tests. I guess this will only be published after they are sure of the effects of the fix. Probably after the first flight we will hopefully be informed about this.  hyper 


User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16084 times:

Let's hope that the computer modeling is good enough now for a 100% fix.

It would seem the model is being adjusted all the time, being that only 10 days ago they were redesigning the last parts. If that model is not good now it will only show up only on the full aircraft tests. Testing individual parts in a lab is one thing, but the full assembly tests are the proof of the pudding.

As many people have been saying if this fix is not 100% Boeing could if necessary go on and start limited flight testing of systems, basic flight envelopes, all the things that would not be limited by any necessary adjustment to the wing re-enforcement mod as it stands today.

I noted a comment on flightbloggers announcement of the first ANA 787 on the flight-line, and I quote "Boeing has said the aircraft - ZA100 - will have a limited role in the flight test program to validate some weight saving structural changes" are these weight changes also completed or is there more to come, IOW has this aircraft had the structural weight and changes to the wiring harnesses fully implemented.

Perhaps there are other reasons why the first three aircraft have no commercial value could be that it would be too expensive to modify them to the final certified standard as in the weight, system changes in respect to wiring etc.

Fingers crossed that all is well now, or it will break Boeing's currently fragile reputation.


User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15843 times:



Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 4):
But frankly, first flight in December or January won't make that much difference to me, as long as they can get it to EIS in Q4 2010.

Agree!

Dec 09 seems too ambitious, however, first flight in Jan/Feb will be very fair to all concerned parties and enthusiasts. 2009 and 2010 is all marketing gimmick.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 15343 times:



Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 8):
Perhaps there are other reasons why the first three aircraft have no commercial value

I think parts assemblies that normally shouldn't have been disassembled have been taken apart for mods, with collateral damage & off standard fixes. I wouldn't like to make a maintenance program for those birds.


Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 9):
Dec 09 seems too ambitious, however, first flight in Jan/Feb will be very fair to all concerned parties and enthusiasts.

I think more importantly the many customers that don't want to miss out in the next economic boom will ask tough questions and demand really realistic delivery schedules.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 15092 times:



Quoting Tropical (Reply 3):
So that leaves about two months to

- complete the fabrication of the final parts of the fix and ship them to Everett

- installation aboard the static frame

- full testing and validation

- while presumably installing the fix concurrently on ZA001 as well


Can it be done before year end? It might be touch and go but I think Boeing has a fair chance, if there are no further hiccups. Interesting times ahead.

One has to remember that these fixes are basically metal plates with holes drilled in them. Fabrication time is negligible.

Installation time, one assumes, isn't negligible due to the tight quarters.

Rigging the mule for testing after the fix is installed, that someone might know more about than I.

But sadly, once again, the news from last week wasn't the "full story" as it was indicated that testing would be completed by the end of this week, but testing had a different definition...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14964 times:
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I imagine Boeing has been working on installing the 13 stringers they felt would survive and now they have the design for the final 4 problem stringers (#2, #3, #4 and #5) completed and are now going to fabrication. So the remaining installation time will be shorter than if they had to install all 17 and therefore first flight by the end of the year should still be theoretically achievable.

As for the test program, the plan is to complete the installation on ZA002 through ZA006 in one-month increments with the planes entering flight test at that time. So assuming ZA001 flies in December 2009, all six should be in the air by June 2010.


User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 14657 times:

I am assuming that if successful, the fix will then have to be installed in production birds such as JA801A, which showed up on the flightline the other day. Is anyone aware of the timeline for that?

As per Flightblogger this bird would be used to validate structural changes related to weight savings.

Thanks,
GB



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14505 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 13):
I am assuming that if successful, the fix will then have to be installed in production birds such as JA801A, which showed up on the flightline the other day. Is anyone aware of the timeline for that?

Not sure, but the fabrication of the parts for 1 and 997 don't impact that, and vice versa. Parts for 2-20+ can be mass produced to the same spec, if you can call a limited run like that mass production, but the first two sets will be true "one of a kind" parts.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14483 times:

Were there any news about the repair of the static test bird? It was implied that it was damaged during the previous failed test, at least the wing skin partially delaminated from the stringers. The repair of the wing skin and stringers in this area would certainly put the test result of the fix in question, since the flying aircrafts are different.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14446 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I'm afraid the first flight planning is getting "ambitious" again with all the installation / testing to be done prior..

You know this how?

Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 4):
You may very well be right again.

Right again? when was he right about Boeing before?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6):
I see myself already sneaking secretly with my laptop into the bathroom to check the latest developments about the FF during the Christmas holidays.

Now there is a picture none of us wanted.  duck   duck   duck 


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14378 times:



Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 15):
It was implied that it was damaged during the previous failed test, at least the wing skin partially delaminated from the stringers.

That was part of the delay, as they had to restore it to "as new" condition for retesting.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
Right again? when was he right about Boeing before?

Detractors are always right when things go wrong, and always because they are wise, not lucky. Always.  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 14063 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
That was part of the delay, as they had to restore it to "as new" condition for retesting.

An Anetter said that, but is not true.


User currently offlineCalibansA333 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13681 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
One has to remember that these fixes are basically metal plates with holes drilled in them. Fabrication time is negligible.

 thumbsup  my thoughts exactly, shouldn't take too long to fabricate these pieces. I'm assuming the new parts could be on the way to Boing in the next day or two.

"Once complete, the parts will be shipped to Everett installation aboard the static test airframe" -quoted from the article-

ehem... what? Boeing is flying their static 787 test frame  Wink Just thought it was funny  Smile


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13062 times:



Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 15):
It was implied that it was damaged during the previous failed test, at least the wing skin partially delaminated from the stringers. The repair of the wing skin and stringers in this area would certainly put the test result of the fix in question, since the flying aircrafts are different.

AFAIK the delamination was not between the skin and the stringers, but within the stringers.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Parts for 2-20+ can be mass produced to the same spec,

May be, may be not. Airplane LN7 onwards have different center wing boxes and some weight savings incorporated into the wings.


User currently offlineJpj777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12478 times:

If the PR boys at Boeing were smart and she is finally ready to fly at the end of the year they should fly her on Dec 31st into Jan 1st, a new plane for a new decade!

User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 592 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12299 times:



Quoting Jpj777 (Reply 21):
If the PR boys at Boeing were smart and she is finally ready to fly at the end of the year they should fly her on Dec 31st into Jan 1st, a new plane for a new decade!

That's part of the problem, the PR guys at Beoing haven't been too smart lately.

This news is good to hear, and I hope things are going better. But I no longer put much faith into anything Boeing says about this program.

Wake me when it flies........


User currently offlineTomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11871 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 20):
May be, may be not. Airplane LN7 onwards have different center wing boxes and some weight savings incorporated into the wings.

That's right, just as LN 5 and 6 have left hand side side of body rib different from the right hand side. So the fix for these 2 birds is sligthly different than on LN 1-4.

It could also very well be that design of LN 7 and on fix is not yet completed. I would only take that LN1 and LN 9997 fix is released as I suspect that only one single engineering team is working on the various variants of the fix. Besides that, another Boeing/MHI/FHI team could be working on THE long term design change to be incorporated from LN ???.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11490 times:



Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 18):


Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
That was part of the delay, as they had to restore it to "as new" condition for retesting.

An Anetter said that, but is not true.


Yes it is true, in quotes. The parts had to be restored to the same strength as pre failure, but they were repaired, not replaced with brand new parts. That's where the confusion came in. Too many people worrying about "exact words" like some Boeing version of the Brady bunch.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Tdscanuck : What's changed? As far as I can tell, they're still on their latest schedule. It doesn't appear to be any more ambitious now that it was when they an
26 DocLightning : Good God, man! Was 2000 a decade ago? Surely you jest. That CAN'T be right! (jeeeeeezus...that was quick)
27 Post contains links Aviationbuff : off the topic............. Boeing issues RFI for 787 connectivity solution http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...for-787-connectivity-solution.html
28 BrouAviation : I can't see how they could do any better. Boeing screwed up several times on this 787, now please tell me how the PR department could have done bette
29 Antoniemey : Umm... the decade doesn't change until 2011. Nice idea, though. 2000 was... the turn of the century was not. 2001 was the first year of the 21st cent
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