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LH Evaluating Boeing SC  
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 5
Posted (15 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

I got to know from a very trustworthy source that Lufthansa (LH) has postponed the decision of buying the A380, to gain time to evaluate the Sonic Cruiser (hate that name, but I'll use it along). This week, they have started simulating flight schedules to find out whether the SC could offer an operational advantage. 'The source' also stated that it would be very hard operating less than 10 A380 profitably. However, there will not be a decision very quickly. It also did not want to comment the question whether LH could imagine operating both types.

Besides, LH is looking for 19 planes with 210 to 300 seats to replace the 310/300 until 2005. No decistion has been made yet, but there seems to be a little advantage for the 753 / 764 combination. They could be operated on medium-haul routes as well, were the Airbus 342 seems to be a little misplaced.

So much for people saying LH will never buy any Boeing planes anymore (they still have 2 744s on order, due for delivery this year, and hold 5 more options)


10 replies: All unread, jump to last
User currently offlineGodbless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2753 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (15 years 1 month 11 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

Well I hope that they go for both, the A380 and the SC. It would also be cool to see the 753 and 764 in the LH fleet. A few months or weeks ago I heard that Condor wanted to get rid of it's 753's again, does anybody know something new about that? Would those be the planes that LH would then take or would they order new ones? regards, Godbless

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (15 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

i think the fuss about Condor wanting to get rid of their 753s was only a rumour. right from the beginning, Condor´s 753s had had excellent operation records and condor was very pleased with them all the time.
i´d really hope LH would opt for the 753s/764s, would love to see them in LH colors and i believe they´d fit in very well.

i agree, that it seems that LH has at least postponed its decision on the a380. however, according to wolfgang mayrhuber, Lufthansa´s Executive VP, in the eyes of Lufthansa, the a380 would very well be a plane Lufthansa could easily operate profitably, and that LH is in mature negotiations with airbus but hasn´t signed a firm commitment, yet.


If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2889 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (15 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 1089 times:

Anyone who thinks LH will buy another Boeing plane in our lifetime is on drugs. At most, they will only use the threat of buying Boeing to get better deals. Here's the deal, LH serves the 3rd largest economy in the world and has absolutely no domestic competition. How is this possible? Because the German gov't and LH are in bed together. Simple politics.

User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2030 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (15 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

I don't see how the SC would be considered to "replace" the A380. They are two completely different planes. You would need 2 SC for one A380, which is double the slots at airports. The point of the A380 is to reduce slot consumption at HUB airports. This is the exact opposite roll that the SC is being designed for.

I could see this being true if LH was going to completely do away with hub and spoke and the SC would be their LR point to point plane. But I don't know why both planes can't be a part of the same fleet, or why LH would abandon at such an early what they say can be a profitable plane (A380) for a completely undefined, 50% smaller plane.

My $.02 USD of course,

They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (15 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 1059 times:

Who is this "trustworthy source"? Because other "trustworthy sources" have been quoted in the press saying, that the SC wouldn't be interesting for LH...

dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineBoeing747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (15 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 1055 times:

Well, if they were evaluating the A330, I'm sure you would trust this sure, now wouldn't you Gerardo?

User currently offlineA330/B777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (15 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 1051 times:

You probably wouldn't though, B744. It's not always one sided.

This is interesting though, seeing as though an exec. form LH had said earlier that he did not see the SC as being a plane LH would want or need:

From the Justplanes.com Airline News

Lufthansa said on Wednesday it is evaluating whether to make an order for Airbus A380 superjumbo and isn't seriously considering Boeing's pitch for a smaller, faster aircraft.
"The focus is on the A380," said a spokeswoman at the German air carrier.
" There is no real interest in the Sonic Cruiser."
The Lufthansa spokeswoman said the German airline isn't involved in any work groups on Boeing projects.
If Lufthansa decides in favor of ordering the A380, a deal could be finalized with Airbus this summer, after negotiations with Lufthansa's pilots conclude.

User currently offlineFlumuc From Germany, joined Oct 1999, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (15 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 1046 times:

I dont think LH will buy B753/764. The A330-300 would be a better replacement for the A300s as this aircraft fits better in their fleet. LH could also use this planes for flights to Tel Aviv, Cairo, Dubai which are served by A340 now so they can use this long-haul aircraft for more intercontinental flights. The A330 can also be used on inner-german flights with a reduction of daily frequencys. For instance FRA-MUC-FRA has up to 13 A300s a day, so 8 or 9 A330-300 could be filled up, too.

I think for the A310s they will not search for a replacement. They can use more A321s or A320s a day for the current A310-routes.

User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (15 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 1034 times:

Gerardo, the source is an LH employee busy with route and fleet planning. I hope this is a trustworth source  Smile


User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (15 years 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 998 times:

Because the German gov't and LH are in bed together. Simple politics.

oh yeah, and this is why the german regulators have opposed the deal between Lufthansa and Eurowings, in which LH bought a 24,9% stake and which is one of LH domestic competitors!!!
however, i agree that LH on most domestic routes enjoys a monopoly and that LH always tries to eliminate its competition (f.e. like the thing with Go on the Munich-Stansted route) and i do not like that either.,
but just for the records, LH has still major competition within germany, which is Deutsche BA, subisidiary of BA and serving must trunk routes from TXL, MUC, CGN, DUS...
and no, i don´t think anyone of us is on drugs. i think any CEO or manager or whoever has something to say when it comes to fleet decisions would be on drugs if he today decided that his airline is only relying on one manufacturer for good. it´s about economics, about how to make money the best and most easily way, and if that means buying boeing, if boeing´s got a more suitable plane for a certain task, then they´ll go for boeing... simple economics.
the only reason why LH has so many airbus aircraft in its fleet is because the a320, at the time it was introduced, was introduced as the most sophisticated short haul airliner and which is something LH likes, they´ve got a very modern fleet and LH belongs to the airlines who always market their modern fleets and so on, which is certainly a nice means to emphasize marketing, in addition it was a fitting addition to the fleet and a bigger brother, the 321, was much earlier available then any bigger and updated derivatives, like the 737NGs.
the reason why LH has so many a340s is not because they dislike the 777 which is absolutely not true, but because the a340s was two, three years earlier available. if boeing had come out earlier with the 777s and 737NGs, perhaps it could be possible that LH had a totally different face, well, just a speculation...
and so i don´t think that LH is only brandishing the 753 so that airbus comes up with sweet offers, however, i agree that LH likes the effect a little pressure on airbus could have...

about the SC, i could very well see this plane being used along with the a380 in some airline´s fleet. i don´t know if that´s going to be LH, but i think that the SC could very well mean a advantage to some airlines.

i don´t think that the a330-300 would fit so well into LH´s fleet. ok, it seems strange if they´d be really more interested in the 764/753 instead of the 333/332, but the 333 is way too big for LH´s european and domestic needs. the a333 would offer a capacity of up to 320-350 pax in a config. similar to those on the current a300/310 fleet, which is too big for LH, and they said, they´re only looking for planes in the range of 210 to 300 seats.
and compared to the smaller 332, the 764 and especially the 753 can be operated more viably on shorter runs. additionally, LH once looked into the proposed a330-500, which would be a smaller derivative of the 332 for short-medium runs but LH didn´t like that design, which had still the massive wingspan of the rest of the a330 family, because it would require large parking positions because of its massive wingspan and so LH concluded the 330s unsuitable for short hauls (the 764 and the 753 still fit into much smaller gate and parking positions) ...
although i could imagine that LH could use the 332s on some routes, the 764s could fill this purpose as well, f.e. on routes to africa, LOS, ACC... and to the near east, RUH, JED...
TLV and DXB may very well be exceptions...
i doubt that LH would ever look into decreasing frequencies on domestic flights, especially between its hubs FRA and MUC. hubs need to be connected frequently and so do business centres.


If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
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