Jimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 627 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6218 times:
Quoting Trigged (Reply 1): Not to mention, if you were an airline, would you hire them?
I am reminded of the quote of Thomas Watson, who was president of IBM for decades.
“Recently, I was asked if I was going to fire an employee who made a mistake that cost the company $600,000. No, I replied, I just spent $600,000 training him. Why would I want somebody to hire his experience?”
It's interesting to me that I haven't seen anyone bring up Eastern 401, which was a similar (though fatal) incident in which pilots were distracted by something and stopped flying the plane.
That was just a little light for the landing gear, and they should have known better, there was a process in place to land without a locked gear.
As much as these pilots are 100% to blame for using a laptop and letting themselves be distracted, the designer/human factors guy in me knows better, and wonders how bad this scheduling system really is. This system is so intricate and complex that it could successfully distract two very experienced pilots for 90 minutes. Pilots, who I'm sure, the day before, would have laughed at the idea that they would ever get that distracted during flight.
I know that the system is working with a lot of complex constraints, but I am hesitant to believe that an optimal design would have been so distracting.
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6193 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6170 times:
Remember that pilots are the most scrutinized profession there is. If the findings made in the FAA revocation letters represent the truth, this certainly qualifies for careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. Some have sought criminal charges in this case; I think that's going a little too far, but to be barred from flying for one year is justified. No excuse. Have modern airliners really become so advanced that people have become this complacent? They just don't give us enough fuel these days to cruise around for an extra hour and a half and have enough left over for contingencies; this could have turned out much different. I just don't see how this could have happened; how many things going on would you have to miss to duplicate this? Sad, sad thing to throw your career away over.
What I do wish is that the airline, the FAA, and the NTSB would keep the matter under close wraps until the investigation and disposition of the matter is complete. It's not fair that they be able to give the press up-to-the-minute updates on every detail of their investigation, while the two pilots involved have no logical choice but to keep quiet.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5073 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6093 times:
Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 2): “Recently, I was asked if I was going to fire an employee who made a mistake that cost the company $600,000. No, I replied, I just spent $600,000 training him. Why would I want somebody to hire his experience?”
IMO hardly compares, hard to imagine what benefit NW would gain from the newfound "experience" of the pilots or what a competitor may gain by hiring them to gain what they "learned"
In a research or even manufacturing environment it is possible to learn from expensive mistakes.
Aviation as well I guess but less to be gained from employing the ones that made the mistake!
Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
Evomutant From Canada, joined May 2006, 365 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6073 times:
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4): In a research or even manufacturing environment it is possible to learn from expensive mistakes.
Aviation as well I guess but less to be gained from employing the ones that made the mistake!
Why. These two are probably the two least likely pilots in North America to get distracted in the cockpit again...
BAW2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 635 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6049 times:
I could understand a 3 day suspension and some remedial CRM training for these guys, but to fire them AND have criminal charges placed against them is just ludicrous. Yes they were distracted, yes they should have known better, but when you compare it to the other incident that happened down in ATL last week involving the DL boeing 763 landing on a taxiway, the 763 pilots should be the ones heavily scrutinized, not the NW crew.
Now I do have one question in regards to the A320. When the FMS reaches the destination, does it automatically go into holding when it reaches the last waypoint/fix/airport? or does it continue on whatever heading it was on when it reached MSP?
example, if the last heading to MSP was 097 and you over fly MSP, does the FMS switch over to heading bug mode and continue just flying on the 097 heading?
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
Santosdumont From Brazil, joined Dec 2003, 1201 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5939 times:
Here's a shot in the dark from a non-airline pilot.
Seeing as explanations for the incident are flying (pun intended) fast and furious -- the pilots were arguing about personnel policy, they were surfing the Net, etc. -- I can't help but wonder if maybe these guys were so exhausted that they both just dozed off? That seems to be the only sensible explanation for overlooking what is arguably one of the most critical phases of the flight.
I'm not in the industry, so I don't know what the working conditions are like nowadays for pilots. There was an intriguing article by Michael Moore titled "Pilots on Food Stamps" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae...ilots-on-food-stamps_b_319929.html that paints a grim picture. But for all I know, the guy's just plugging a new film. I did, however, want to ask the airline pilots on the board if conditions (scheduling, pay, etc.) have in fact deteriorated to the point where two guys could fall asleep? Obviously, I don't know to what extent you all can answer candidly without putting yourselves in a tough position.
I'm just trying to get a feel for the situation from unbiased, non-hysterical sources in positions to know.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
Stretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2559 posts, RR: 22 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5788 times:
I am not buying the "argument/dicsussion over airline policy" or the "both using laptops" line of stories. Both of these guys fell asleep. Both are toast.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7529 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5705 times:
Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 2): This system is so intricate and complex that it could successfully distract two very experienced pilots for 90 minutes. Pilots, who I'm sure, the day before, would have laughed at the idea that they would ever get that distracted during flight.
I know that the system is working with a lot of complex constraints, but I am hesitant to believe that an optimal design would have been so distracting.
I don't think that the bidding system at DL could be considered too complex or the system is too bad. I believe it's because it was a system that neither was used to that may have made it difficult for them to use.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
CokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 979 posts, RR: 10 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5671 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 10):
I don't think that the bidding system at DL could be considered too complex or the system is too bad. I believe it's because it was a system that neither was used to that may have made it difficult for them to use.
Exactly, I understand it's very close to what we (F/A's) use.
intricate? hardly. complex? not at all. now different from what they
currently use? probably. Plus, I believe they are dealing will less
parameters than what we use when bidding. Lame excuse that
the "bidding differences" is what distracted them. JMHO
Moose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5245 times:
Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 9): I am not buying the "argument/dicsussion over airline policy" or the "both using laptops" line of stories. Both of these guys fell asleep. Both are toast.
Whatever the excuse, the real story, or the publicly stated reason behind the incident, both are toast. They have had their licenses pulled by the FAA and it sounds like NW will fire them for violating company procedures. Even if they are able to get their license re-issued a year from now, their prospects of landing (no pun intended) a job at a major carrier are slim at best.
Ryu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5197 times:
On appeal, their union might be able to get NW to allow the pilots to "retire early". I think that was what happend with the WN crew that overran the runway in BUR.
Toltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3076 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5174 times:
Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 9): I am not buying the "argument/dicsussion over airline policy" or the "both using laptops" line of stories. Both of these guys fell asleep. Both are toast.
I agree. There's no way they were both able to ignore bells, alerts, and messages from the company if they both were awake "studying their laptops". I believe they were asleep as well. And this incident hurts the case for other pilots. They were on the first leg following a 19 hour layover in SAN. What went on during that layover that made them so "distracted"?
ArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 778 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5174 times:
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 7): I did, however, want to ask the airline pilots on the board if conditions (scheduling, pay, etc.) have in fact deteriorated to the point where two guys could fall asleep?
Not sure I follow the logic. Your pay is bad so you fall asleep? Sounds like someone is trying to find a scapegoat...
413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5167 times:
I think bad pay contributes to not being able to move to where you are based, being thrown around in the scheduling shuffle to fly maximum hours possible with the least amount of rest, commuting to work, multiple legs in a day, etc.
ArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 778 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5078 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 20): I think bad pay contributes to not being able to move to where you are based, being thrown around in the scheduling shuffle to fly maximum hours possible with the least amount of rest, commuting to work, multiple legs in a day, etc.
Possibly. But it's up to the pilots to show up fit to fly. If they aren't fit to fly then they have no business taking responsiblity for the 200 passengers sitting behind them. That's completely irresponsible. If their living situation compromises the safety of themselves, their crew, and their passenegers, then it may be time to reevaluate their situation. At the end of the day, if fatigue, which you say could be indirectly related to bad pay, caused a plane to crash, then it won't matter what they get paid....
If they are out of the cockpit for a couple of years, it might not be viable for them to re qualify.
Exactly my point above. By the time they get through the process they might end up flying for some feeder airline for 3-4 years at best. What they need to do is turn lemons into lemonade and become spokesmen for "What not to do in the cockpit" and go around speaking to pilot's groups. Maybe then they can turn this into a positive.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 14): Quoting Trigged (Reply 1):
if you were an airline, would you hire them?
A large commercial carrier won't.
Yep. They might be able to get out of the public eye as a charter pilot or flying freight, but their days of flying 100+ passengers are over.
Ryu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4899 times:
Quoting Trigged (Reply 22): Yep. They might be able to get out of the public eye as a charter pilot or flying freight, but their days of flying 100+ passengers are over.
Maybe they can fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog sh!t out of HKG.
Nwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4886 times:
Is there really any reason to be quite so nasty? Yes, they made a mistake, no, they did not jeopardize any lives. 'rubber dog shit' is pretty cruddy, by the same token, they have valuable skills, and I emphathize with all over the DL/NWA merger - it has confused all of us. It is just too bad that the merger situation has impacted 2 pilots lives quite so hard.
Delta and NWA have no choice but to follow the investigation instructions, so these two men are no longer commercial airline pilots - I just want to ask if this is the best outcome, or should something else be considered
25 71Zulu: That might have happened with the Captain but the F/O kept his job only to lose it a few years later do something even more stupid. I wouldn't totall
26 Moose135: But there are thousands of pilots flying every day, not to mention thousands more furloughed, who have similar skills, and who haven't shown the same
27 Jhooper: Maybe in their personnel lives, but certainly not in their professional lives. Pilots are especially trusted with the safety of hundreds of lives at
28 Comorin: I'm intrigued by the use of the word 'frolic' in the letters - Is this a term specific to Aviation Law and does it refer to flying a craft without re
29 PlaneAdmirer: You know it's going to be interesting to see what the final report says and if and what it might leave as inconclusive. It would also be interesting t
30 CokePopper: So are you saying the Merger/Aquisition is the cause? really?
31 XFSUgimpLB41X: The new system is a complete change from their old one. As I said earlier, learning how to use it and actually using it are 2 very different things.
32 ULMFlyer: A knowledgeable lawyer answered this question in another forum. To sum up, it's not a term specific to Aviation Law. Rather, it originates in the UK
33 Comorin: Thanks! It's an interesting concept, though in this case the frolic and detour seems to have been unintentional. While the FAA may absolve NW/DL, I i
34 Itsjustme: Law enforcement officers are #1 when it comes to being scrutinized, both on and off duty; as we should be. Given the change in their statements to in
35 ArcrftLvr: Are you seriously attributing their complete lapse in judgement to the merger? How are the two related? What an asinine comment. The poster was refer
36 PlaneAdmirer: Actually, what these two guys did make a case for are completely automated cockpits. If there was no danger with them not doing their jobs, then why h
37 Mayor: Except those UAV controllers aren't responsible for 200+ lives on their a/c. There easily could have been "danger" involved......I would say that, al
38 FlyDeltaJets87: Based on the fact that no one was killed and that they both have no prior incidents, they might be able to work this in. This often happens in the mi
39 DocLightning: So, my understand is that a "Frolic" is when you do something for your own good when you're supposed to be working for your employer. For example, if
41 Mhsieh: Assume these 2 guys have normal hearing and eyesight, is it possible to not hear or see all the things that were going on trying to get their attentio
42 XFSUgimpLB41X: ACARS messages do not make a noise... on a small message pops up on the ECAM. VHF radio stations are line of sight. Once you pass out of line of sigh
43 Barney Captain: Why have us there at all? I'll tell you - judgment. Just because the A/P allowed them to get distracted during cruise flight in clear air (the most b
44 PlaneAdmirer: I was being somewhat sarcastic to those who argue what they did was no big deal. They can't claim that pilots offer what you call judgment (and I agr
45 Tdscanuck: Anything that would put the passengers in jeopardy gets annunciated. An modern airliner is capable of flying for *far* longer than 78 minutes complet
46 Mhsieh: XFSUgimpLB41X : Does this mean radio silence and loss of situational awareness can happen very easily? You've pointed out the circumstances which this
47 XFSUgimpLB41X: 1. If youre not paying attention, absolutely. A key point of learning to fly is SA. 2. Pay attention and fly the damn airplane, haha. (edit: you're s
48 Jimbobjoe: I don't disagree with you. Not one bit. But if there is a design/human factors fault with the system then there should be some embarrassed designers
49 Braybuddy: This incident is fortunate in that it's a massive wake-up call on the dangers of locked flight deck doors. They're an accident waiting to happen.
50 Barney Captain: Lets see, not that a locked cockpit door had anything to do with this incident (they had the flight interphone) but, unlocked cockpit doors = 9-11. L
51 Braybuddy: Why didn't the crew enter the cockpit if it was unlocked? Surely some crew (or passengers) must have been aware something was wrong. I understand you
52 PlaneAdmirer: Did anyone say that the FA's knocked or called in during the 78 period and received no response? Personally, I like locked doors, but I am disturbed
53 Mayor: Who said there were defects with the DL bidding system? It is simply a system that these two NW pilots are not used to using.
54 PlaneAdmirer: Today's WSJ reports that ALPA is upset with how the FAA is handling the matter and that the pilots were punished after voluntarily agreeing to speak w
55 SeeTheWorld: I think it's pretty clear from all the comments and reactions by the NTSB, FAA, Delta, and the Union (well, maybe not the Union) that everyone believe
56 Ychocky: Wasn't it proven that the holster was faulty and caused the weapon to discharge?
57 ArcrftLvr: So is having locked flight deck doors. I like the oxymoron assiociated with the 'dangers of locked flight deck doors.' Haha!!! Actually, in the subse
58 Braybuddy: Like all locked doors, they should be able to be unlocked/opened from the far side in case of emergency. I was away and missed most of this story, bu
59 September11: or concerned about missing a connecting flight in MSP
60 Barney Captain: I'm not about to divulge security sensitive information, but that has thoroughly been considered. Lets keep the facts on track ok? From the FAA lette
61 Rcair1: Actually - item 17 says NORDO for "approximately 91 minutes". The letter did not state it, but it would imply the last positive contact (prior to 188
62 FlyDeltaJets87: It's a trade off. Oh well you've cleared up everything! Knowing that they were not doing their job for just under an hour instead of just over an hou
63 Barney Captain: You're sarcasm excused, I was not excusing this crew, I was only clarifying the statement; Which was clearly not the case. In fact it was 16 minutes.
64 Tdscanuck: What danger? Why do you assume they can't be? For example: "An electric lock controlled by the pilots secures the door during flight. In the event th
65 Braybuddy: I've only come to this story late as I was away, and with information of what the cabin crew were doing/thinking hard to come by (reading the links p
66 Nws2002: Without divulging the how (or any SSI) I will say that there are ways to open the flight deck door from the outside in an emergency situation. If you
67 Cozmoose: Sorry if this was brought up already but if the plane was one of those Delta plane with flightmap AVOD for passengers, would this situation have occur
68 Rcair1: I was not quoting the media - so please do not relate my comments to that. Regarding NORDO - my apologies, your interpretation is more strictly corre
69 Tdscanuck: Tough to tell...not that many passengers would be watching it, and probably only a fraction would notice the discrepancy. Air traffic control routing
70 RobertS975: Yeah, but more and more passengers start watching the flight map as an aircraft nears its destination. And somebody would have noticed that the altit
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