Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Confirmed: S.C. To Get 2nd 787 Line   
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14472 times:

According to this article, the talks between Boeing and the IAM have collapsed and it looks like the 2nd 787 assembly line will be in Charleston, South Carolina. Boeing should announce a decision within days.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2010148300_boeing28.html

This is a blow to Washington state and I mean no offense to the Boeing workers there, but I can understand why Boeing wants to move out. From what I've heard, the state is not a business-friendly environment with high taxes and high labor costs (I know they got massive tax breaks earlier, though).

My question is, will Boeing eventually move all commercial aircraft production to South Carolina if the IAM continues to be a thorn in their side?

There was an earlier thread that talked about the possibility of Boeing going to China and I would much rather see commerical aircraft production remain in the U.S.

If South Carolina is going to be a business-friendly environment, then Boeing should move there, IMO.

It might be cheaper to consolidate all commercial aircraft production at one massive site in Charleston, rather than at the two current locations (Everett and Renton). They could build aircraft similar to how Ford builds cars at their Camaçari plant in Brazil (automation and supplier integration).

Again, I mean no offense to anyone; I am just trying to see what the future holds.

152 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1911 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14423 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
My question is, will Boeing eventually move all commercial aircraft production to South Carolina if the IAM continues to be a thorn in their side?

Yes.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
There was an earlier thread that talked about the possibility of Boeing going to China and I would much rather see commerical aircraft production remain in the U.S.

There may eventually be something alongside what Airbus did with its Tianjin final assembly line, with limited production to satisfy the local market needs. Not a fully blown production site, though, and definitely not the HQ move either.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
If South Carolina is going to be a business-friendly environment, then Boeing should move there, IMO.

And that is exactly what will happen, eventually. Just look at the success Hyundai and BMW had with their non-union production sites in North America.



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7654 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14372 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
My question is, will Boeing eventually move all commercial aircraft production to South Carolina if the IAM continues to be a thorn in their side?

This question conflicts with your other statement quoted below.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
From what I've heard, the state is not a business-friendly environment with high taxes and high labor costs (I know they got massive tax breaks earlier, though).

Somehow the majority of problems Boeing has is related to the union, was that not also the stated reason for the current debacle which is the 787 program?  Smile

Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
If South Carolina is going to be a business-friendly environment, then Boeing should move there, IMO.

And in time exactly what is taking place in the north east will take place in the south east. If Washington state wants to keep Boeing they know what to do, as for the massive tax breaks previously given to Boeing that does not engender any loyalty, their loyalty is to their share holders, something the south east states need to remember.


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14297 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 2):
Somehow the majority of problems Boeing has is related to the union, was that not also the stated reason for the current debacle which is the 787 program?

Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
If South Carolina is going to be a business-friendly environment, then Boeing should move there, IMO.

Lets not get off on the whole 787 thing again here, that is being covered ad nauseum elsewhere in many threads and like an endless merry-go-round the same points made over and over.

The strike was very costly to Boeing and effected deliveries of all aircraft. I don't blame them for one minute for trying to find a relief line somewhere that is more cost effective for them. Obviously a more cooperative Management/Union relationship is better but in this case I don't see it happening any time soon.


User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14237 times:

Just a few comments:

Washington generally ranks near the top in places to do business in every honest survey. This does not mean it is the best place for some particular business.

The union was incredibly stupid to strike for two months last year, that alone may have made this step inevitable.

FEW of Boeing's major problems with the new jet are union related, perhaps none.

The South gloated back when I was young, when it managed to grab all/most of New England's well paying textile jobs. Guess where those jobs are now?

To my mind both the union and Boeing operate without loyalty to all the State of WA has done for them. Loyalty is not legally required, no crime. We likely will need to learn to get along without them.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineSlimShady From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14042 times:

Any chance of some, or any work being moved to Long Beach? Not just on the 787, but any aircraft model? Sure would be nice to see LGB as a production facility again.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13818 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Thread starter):
My question is, will Boeing eventually move all commercial aircraft production to South Carolina if the IAM continues to be a thorn in their side

I believe that, for the higher-volume projects where multiple lines can be justified (Y1 and Y2), Boeing will never again go with just one final-assembly plant.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineClemsonaj From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13741 times:

This is excellent news for a state that is really suffering right now. Its always cool to see all the military aircraft flying around Charleston, but this would make it an aviation enthusiasts dream. It also helps that I wouldn't have to fly across the country to check out some of the production at Boeing.

User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 858 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13706 times:



Quoting SlimShady (Reply 5):
Any chance of some, or any work being moved to Long Beach? Not just on the 787, but any aircraft model? Sure would be nice to see LGB as a production facility again.

I think you'd still run into that "union problem"

One thing that I was thinking about - planes in Everett are assembled, painted (or in PDX), tested, and delivered. I wonder if Boeing is planning on delivering the airplanes directly from Charleston. There's no paint facilities there, no customer reps, no delivery center. I don't know if that would be the plan if this actually happens.



That's why we're here.
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7654 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13672 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
The strike was very costly to Boeing and effected deliveries of all aircraft. I don't blame them for one minute for trying to find a relief line somewhere that is more cost effective for them. Obviously a more cooperative Management/Union relationship is better but in this case I don't see it happening any time soon.

The union has been blamed for many things, including initiating the strike which management input was zero, folks need something / someone to blame and right now union's are it, management rides the good wave. Reading the local news web sites from the north west gives some hints of how the politicians are thinking, as usual there are supporters of both sides, so far no clear winning trend has been identified. At the end of the day, if they loose due to cost the decline in industries will be hard to recover. Folks are moving to better weather states even without jobs, having jobs follow the trend is a boost.

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 4):
The South gloated back when I was young, when it managed to grab all/most of New England's well paying textile jobs. Guess where those jobs are now?

The more things change, the more they remain the same, with the amount of industrial capacity the US has already lost including a lot of heavy a/c work, this too may become a reality. One of the goals of the 787 program was a new production and risk sharing method, assembly of finished products can be done off shore.

Quoting SlimShady (Reply 5):
Any chance of some, or any work being moved to Long Beach?

Not much facilities left in Long Beach, cost differential with the noth west may not be that great. Now if the workers want to give back for the great weather  Smile


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13506 times:



Quoting SlimShady (Reply 5):
Any chance of some, or any work being moved to Long Beach? Not just on the 787, but any aircraft model? Sure would be nice to see LGB as a production facility again.

Much of the old Douglas plant has already been demolished. It is unlikely that anything will be built there.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13376 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The Seattle Times is reporting that Boeing has formally chosen Charleston, South Carolina.

Quote:

Boeing picks Charleston for new 787 line

Boeing's board has voted unanimously to build a second 787 final assembly plant in Charleston, according to a highly placed official of the Machinists union.

The $170 million in upfront grants for startup costs, plus multiple tax breaks that would be worth tens of millions of dollars more that South Carolina requires Boeing to add 3800 new jobs (I am guessing on top of the current 1900 employed by them and Global Aeronautica) and invest $750 million in the facility, so I expect that means that the 737 replacement, at least, has a good shot at going in there.


User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 858 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13326 times:

KING5 confirms:

http://www.king5.com/news/business/B...cision-could-come-at-any-time.html



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13234 times:

Well having grown up in this state with Boeing in my backyard, all I can really say is...I'm extremely disappointed. Nobody can predict the future, but on many levels I feel like this is the beginning of the end for commercial airplanes in Washington. It will be a slow and painful process but I just don't see how they will be able to justify the benefits of making planes in SC vs. Washington. Once they show how much more of a profit per airframe they are making in SC vs. Everett, it won't take long for someone in upper management or the shareholders to pull the plug on building planes here.

Congrats to SC for getting what they wanted. You'll enjoy watching new aircraft roll off the line every week.

Everyone involved in wanting to keep the lines here in WA need to seriously rethink their strategies and policies.


User currently offlineLY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 858 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13198 times:

Boeing Press Release:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=906



That's why we're here.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13105 times:



Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 14):
Boeing Press Release:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=906

Makes sense - not surprising.

Given the opportunity to diversify their industrial base, to a new location with lower costs in virtually every category, in a right-to-work state, where the workers have just recently voted to de-certify a union, when their existing union workers at their existing site in a higher-cost, union-friendly state, just went on strike last year, why would Boeing choose to expand in Seattle?

Plus - I completely agree with what the original article hints at - this is just the beginning, the canary in the mine shaft for Seattle. Once Boeing has an established manufacturing base in the low-cost, pro-business south, I find it hard to believe that they'll continue to put more and more work in high-cost, union-dominated Seattle.

Sad for Washington State, but I think Boeing definitely made the smart long-term strategic choice.


User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13094 times:

I personally think this is a great move for Boeing, its customers, and even its employees. If they manage this second line properly it could well save Boeing's reputation along with the 787 program. I honestly believe the atmosphere in Seattle is now too poisoned between unionized labor and management to salvage. I do empathize with line workers and skilled machinists and such but all you have to do is look to Detroit to see what happens when you price yourself right out of business. Management is to blame as well but a healthy company in the long term will benefit a greater number of people.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13095 times:



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 4):
The union was incredibly stupid to strike for two months last year, that alone may have made this step inevitable.

 checkmark 

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 4):
FEW of Boeing's major problems with the new jet are union related, perhaps none.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Well, not the 787, but the union seems to have royally pissed off some customers if one can believe Branson's comments when he was last in Seattle.

IMO, this is part of a long term shift to right to work states in the south. I would not rule out another new aircraft in the Puget Sound area, but this ain't a good sign.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineClemsonaj From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13028 times:

Just saw this one the local news here in the upstate of South Carolina. They're reporting state officials are saying they expect Boeing to begin construction in November. They're moving fast if that is true, but it's not all that unexpected. Boeing needs to get the production rate up to make those deliveries.

User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12945 times:



Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 8):
There's no paint facilities there, no customer reps, no delivery center. I don't know if that would be the plan if this actually happens.

Lockheed Martin has a almost new paint shop at its Greenville SC facility that I am sure would be available for the right price. In fact Boeing could lease space at Donaldson Air Park for their east coast delivery center.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12899 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting LY4XELD (Reply 8):
One thing that I was thinking about - planes in Everett are assembled, painted (or in PDX), tested, and delivered. I wonder if Boeing is planning on delivering the airplanes directly from Charleston. There's no paint facilities there, no customer reps, no delivery center. I don't know if that would be the plan if this actually happens.

I would expect Boeing will build those facilities, if not initially with the line, by 2012. They would pretty much have to in order to ensure that a strike at Everett didn't shut down those facilities (either because they are IAM-staffed or due to a "sympathy strike" by the unions that staff those facilities and functions).


User currently offlineAT777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12828 times:

I was going to start a thread on this but I saw this one. Here is the link I was going to put up along with the others.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/...102809-mw-boeing-sc.2603ba05e.html


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12817 times:

I think the incentive package offered by South Carolina is mere "icing on the cake". The issue for Boeing was labor acquiescence to a long term "no strike" agreement.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12687 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 22):
I think the incentive package offered by South Carolina is mere "icing on the cake". The issue for Boeing was labor acquiescence to a long term "no strike" agreement.

Exactly. Boeing knew they held all the cards and the IAM's only real option was to roll over and hope that by keeping the 787 in Washington it would give them leverage to secure the production of the 737 and 777 replacements, as well.

As one can expect, this topic dominated the local talk shows here in Seattle and caller and analyst views covered pretty much the entire spectrum. Some feel that the IAM is "betting the house" that Charleston will fail so spectacularly that Boeing will come back with their tail between their legs and switch the momentum back to the union to force Boeing being the one to give the concessions in 2012. Others felt that the IAM have effectively killed any chance of the 737 and 777 replacements being assembled in Renton and Everett and the 787 will be the last new airplane family assembled in Washington State.


User currently offlineBlueF9A320 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12644 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 17):
Well, not the 787, but the union seems to have royally pissed off some customers if one can believe Branson's comments when he was last in Seattle.

What comments were these?



Audentes Fortuna Juvat...
25 Swallow : This is win-win for big B. Both states will give them concessions; WA to keep existing lines and SC to expand their presence. I can see them buying ou
26 Mikesbucky : See the "Branson warns Boeing" thread. I'm sorry I don't know how to add the link direct to that thread, but a search will find it easily.
27 Tugger : Why wouldn't the plant in SC also become union? It would seem logical as it is a difficult to move operation with high upfront costs and a long pay-ff
28 Racko : I might be alone with this opinion, but I don't like the move. The workforce of Washington made Boeing the giant it is today. And now the management t
29 BMI727 : And now they have priced themselves out of the market. If they are willing to work for the same wages as SC workers will, I'm sure Boeing will be hap
30 Commavia : And Boeing put the "work" in that workforce. Any time you try and say that one group or thing is responsible or deserves the credit for another, it's
31 XT6Wagon : If it does I very much doubt it would be the same one as the seattle people. I really hope the people in Seattle have figured out just how much the u
32 Stitch : If Boeing treats them poorly, they may decide to re-certify the IAM. However, even if they do, unlike in Washington, workers in Charleston will be ab
33 JayinKitsap : Back in the early 90's Boeing was adding a Paint Hanger at Boeing Field. Besides for charging an exorbitant sum to expedite the plan review (to like 1
34 Post contains links BlueF9A320 : Here's the link if anyone would like refresher Branson Warns Boeing
35 JBirdAV8r : Man, CHS is going to be a paradise for me. C-17's doing pattern work and brand new 787s rolling off the line. It'll certainly make those trips visiti
36 Ikramerica : It was ill-timed and poorly implemented. The union leadership should have looked to strike a one year continuation deal with Boeing, but instead stru
37 474218 : Because the people that will work there will know why they have a job and will vote to keep the union out and to keep their job. Lockheed Martin has
38 FrmrCAPCADET : Seattle times article pointed out that AVERAGE age at Boeing in South Carolina is $14/hour. And for that SC is subsidizing $175 million? We have lower
39 HikesWithEyes : The cost of living difference between Seattle and Charleston is significant.
40 Par13del : Well if Boeing is able to perfect its new production method initiated with the 787 one would expect the cost of assembly in the US to be more expensi
41 474218 : The $14 an hour average wage (age) for a Boeing (Vought) worker in South Carolina is mis-leading because un-like their Washington plants the former V
42 FrmrCAPCADET : And who will see to it that the average will raise?
43 ER757 : Jay, I think you have this backwards - Intel wanted to build the plant in Dupont, the state kicked in for the interchange, now Intel closed down prod
44 Nwafan20 : The market. Let's face it folks. We live in a capitalist society. In said society, it is best to let the market run it's course. When you start inter
45 Swallow : Yep. The divorce continues; step 1 was moving out [to Chicago]. Big Jim just came back to get some of his stuff and move it down to SC I don't think
46 Tdscanuck : It takes time, and in aerospace it's more time that most industries, to build a skilled and capable workforce. People expect to be paid more as their
47 F9Animal : The line was not moved, as some have said.[Edited 2009-10-29 01:35:01]
48 SA7700 : Dear Members A fair amount of posts have been removed from this thread due to various A.net forum violations. Please note that continued misuse of thi
49 Post contains images Mrocktor : Any business executive who proposes to take manufacturing to California would be laughed out of the board room. OR Management has made Boeing the gia
50 A10WARTHOG : Take what you read sometimes with a grain of salt, there are often two sides to the story that the general public will never hear.
51 Post contains links N328KF : Fair use quote from The Seattle Times Recreating local plants in S.C. No, but I would imagine that Charleston will eventually achieve at least product
52 LY4XELD : According to the press release, CHS will have all the capabilities to deliver airplanes directly from the site.
53 Rbgso : Agreed. California is arguably an even more expensive location than Washington for manufacturing companies.
54 Post contains links FrmrCAPCADET : http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/archives/183566.asp The link is to an article by a person from South Carolina, and discusses all of this fai
55 N328KF : This ignores an important reality of the situation. Boeing did not mind Puget Sound's labor costs as much as they did their tendency to strike (and d
56 Ikramerica : Which is what makes the IAM district heads use of the term "loyalty" such a joke. Loyalty is striking at just about every opportunity you get? Hardly
57 N328KF : Right. And this last time, they pulled a strike at what was probably the worst possible time. The union should have been pulling for Boeing to recove
58 Rheinbote : What is the share of hand labor in aircraft manufacturing cost? I'd wager somewhere between 5-10%. The whole union/low cost topic is completely overra
59 Stitch : Well if the average wage of a 787 FAL machinist in Everett is $28 an hour and you need 1000 of them, your labor bill is $28,000 an hour. So 787 FAL l
60 Ikramerica : Exactly. The cost of a union is not the wage but the other factors. Difficulty in firing bad employees, seniority system that forces you to keep the
61 PPVRA : Don't blame it all on the South. There's little they can do with increasing federal taxation and regulations.
62 SEPilot : One of the most strangling effects of a union is work rules. I saw this when working in a union shop as an engineer (the engineers were not unionized
63 PITingres : And it's not so much the existence or non-existence of a union; it's really about the people factor, as usual. If a union is willing to be reasonable
64 Ikramerica : Forgot about the work rules adding costs. I remember a story told to me by a music teacher at my highschool who also played in broadway orchestras (an
65 Micstatic : Is there any future chance of the union workers in Puget sound throwing out the IAM? I feel like it hasn't been discussed.
66 Stitch : The general gist I am getting from local media coverage is that the IAM rank and file feel that the workforce in Charleston is too incompetent to bui
67 Pellegrine : Great for Boeing. Bad for their employees and skilled laborers anywhere in the US. That is a joke. They're being paid $14/hour to assemble airplanes?
68 474218 : $14 is the average wage. There are people making $21 and people making $7. There are people assembling sections of an aircraft and people sweeping th
69 FrmrCAPCADET : The Seattle Times (the formerly only conservative daily in Seattle, now the only one) writer has extensive South Carolina connections, and despite tha
70 Tdscanuck : Federal minimum wage (which applies in SC) is $7.25 an hour...who's making $7 and how are they getting away with that? Tom.
71 Buddys747 : Maybe Boeing should get the 787 in the air FIRST before making such decisions. While I am pro-union, the strike was ill-timed. However, those same wo
72 Jetstar : Along these same lines, one weekend a few years ago I was in El Sugendo CA and was staying at the Hilton Garden Inn, just 2 blocks down the street th
73 Stitch : No it isn't. But it pales in comparison to the costs when that line is shut down because the machinists are on strike. Boeing is making this decision
74 FrmrCAPCADET : The unions had already agreed to a 10 year strike moratorium, and were will to consider Boeing counter proposals - which NEVER came.
75 Pellegrine : Bless South Carolina and their low standards of living errrrr low living costs. If Boeing's hypothetical profit margin per widebody aircraft is $5-10
76 LTBEWR : Another reason to consider a 2nd line in SC and well away from WA state, may be the threats of severe earthquakes in the Seattle region that could hit
77 JBirdAV8r : Totally baseless, uninformed, inflammatory statement.
78 A10WARTHOG : The IAM has only struck 6 or 7 times since 1944, just majority of the times has been in the last 20 years. When Boeing gets in a tight place and need
79 PPVRA : There's plenty that can be done. Start with one of the highest corporate tax rates in the planet, the highest in the OECD.
80 PPVRA : The future of Washington state, apparently. At least SC is moving forward.[Edited 2009-10-29 18:18:43]
81 MD-90 : It's not "low standards of living" it's "less government and less regulations and low taxes--when compared to high cost Washington." Why does Eurocop
82 PPVRA : Don't forget Gulfstream just a couple hundred miles south of Charleston. Or Lockheed Martin and it's F-22 a 5 hours drive from Charleston. But of cou
83 Buddys747 : Less government and less regualtions can help a business, sure. However,low taxes for employees though do not offset the lower wages. Saving a little
84 HikesWithEyes : Can you can confirm that with a link? The more believable line that I heard was that they were willing to have issues settled by a mediator. Better t
85 JBirdAV8r : Not to mention also at the same place five hours away people have built the C-5 Galaxy and also have been building the C-130 for nearly half a centur
86 FrmrCAPCADET : Boeing said they wanted lower labor costs and no strikes. Check Seattle Times, a variety of articles. North Carolina is joining the high tech world. N
87 Post contains links 474218 : Suggest reading the attached: http://www.sccommerce.com/locateinsc/businesssectors.aspx
88 JBirdAV8r : Well, to wit, they are building airliners in Charleston... If you're referring to Cary and the Research Triangle, development there has been underway
89 FrmrCAPCADET : You are aware that there are companies and organizations that rate business friendliness solely according to low taxes.
90 Post contains links PPVRA : It's not everything for sure, but certainly significant, no? http://www.komonews.com/news/local/67386457.html I mean, we tax smoking to try to keep p
91 Flybyguy : I concur with this statement. Boeing is probably not going to go through the expense of relocating all production out of Seattle in the near future.
92 Tdscanuck : This same thing was repeated on NPR in Seattle this morning by a Boeing spokesperson. Although it's technically true, I have a *very* hard time belie
93 N328KF : If by 'centuries,' you mean 'in the last 25 years,' then sure. If Mount St. Helens had blown with winds going the other way, Seattle could hve been a
94 FrmrCAPCADET : The major danger of Mt Rainier is a collapse of a side of the mountain causing a lahar or major mudslide. None of the Boeing plants are in the most li
95 Astuteman : I tend not to post on threads like this as I haven't really got a horse in the race, but if you're right with this, Stitch, then it's a worrying atti
96 Pellegrine : Why change? To appease big business? All businesses aren't fleeing the US. Not a dig on your state, a dig on Boeing, see below. What do either of the
97 LY4XELD : Are we neglecting the SC coast's susceptibility to a major hurricane? I think any mention of natural disasters is garbage. Every place has got some s
98 Stitch : But it is how "business is done" all over the world in every industry. BMW did not locate to South Carolina nor Mercedes to Alabama just because the
99 BMI727 : Unions of all types play that quality card, though I have yet to see a correlation between quality and the use of a union workforce. Why would that b
100 Stitch : Washington's "business climate" did not play any role in the second line going to Charleston. While the State Republicans are playing it up, they're d
101 N328KF : I do not agree here. While the design and production issues exacerbated the problem, there had been debate about a second production line from the st
102 SEPilot : This is a very dangerous attitude that ignores reality and human nature. My observation is that people are pretty much the same the world over, and i
103 MD-90 : I don't know where the $14/hour figure comes from but I can guarantee that when Boeing actually starts assembling 787s in Charleston that number will
104 A10WARTHOG : Depending on what you read. The union did try to roll over, but Boeing did not care. There are many article each side blaming the other. The truth is
105 JBirdAV8r : How is Boeing moving to a less expensive, arguably less hostile state a bad thing? I thought the purpose of a corporation was to maximize shareholder
106 A10WARTHOG : That number has been in newspapers, if I am not mistaking that is what Vought was starting people out at, before Boeing bought them. Before the last
107 474218 : What you say is very true! In 1991 I was transferred from California to Georgia. My living style when up. Much nicer home for less money, lower food
108 Stitch : Before the program went totally off the rails, Boeing was of the opinion that Everett's FAL could support upwards of 13, maybe even 14, frames a mont
109 Post contains links N328KF : And the IAM should have known, better, too. Boeing is the only remaining top-tier aerospace manufacturer with their principal civilian product built
110 Post contains links Blrsea : From reports in Seattle Times, the union was willing to offer more than 10 year no-strike option, but they never heard back from Boeing management. Th
111 Tarheelwings : Gotta love the poker analogies Bottom line is that management was bargaining from a position of strength and the Union either refused to awknowledge
112 Post contains links Nycbjr : Flightglobal is reporting a "Surge" Line will be setup where the 767 is being built.. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...selects-charleston-for-se
113 Post contains links Planemaker : It is indeed a page out of the Defense division playbook... It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Pork! Boeing's C-17 cargo aircraft cost $250 million apie
114 Par13del : Since this is an aviation site, there are some union rules that were put in place by business demands, not just unions trying to preserve / create jo
115 StuckInCA : Funny thought. Many of the workers in Puget Sound are longtime (or lifetime) residents of the area. Many of these people are the type that grouse abo
116 Stitch : Personally, I believe South Carolina didn't have to do anything else to win Boeing. They already offered the two incentives Boeing wanted - a non-uni
117 Planemaker : I'll give you a similar aviation example to what was given earlier. Engineering drawings were generated by one union at the Drawing Stores but they c
118 Stitch : I believe the strike is what convinced Boeing that the IAM was a "clear and present danger" to the long-term financial health of the company and ther
119 Par13del : Yeah, but, as in this case of negotiations, did Boeing force the strike, it may take years before a definitive answers is given. As you already menti
120 Rheinbote : The key to competitiveness and sustained creation of wealth is relentless growth in productivity. I'm not sure that ruthless cutting of wages will ge
121 SEPilot : Exactly. And that is the time frame that it will take Boeing to get up to speed on 787 production. I never said it would happen instantly. Remember t
122 474218 : I take it that you think that Boeing will not transfer experienced managers, supervisors, manufacturing engineers, training instructors, etc to the S
123 N328KF : FYI, the facility in question belonged to Vought, not Spirit. Spirit's Wichita operations are not really considered problematic.
124 SEPilot : Sorry, my bad. I got them mixed up, and didn't bother check.
125 FrmrCAPCADET : Keep in mind that the entire state of SC is subsidized by the federal government, 1.29 or every dollar they pay in taxes. WA has a 1.06 benefit from f
126 N328KF : You sound like a member of the sore-loser Puget Sound brigade.
127 Planemaker : C'mon, it has to be tough seeing a once dominant company in the region gradually atrophy. You can bet that other Puget Sound aerospace firms are also
128 A10WARTHOG : This one area where the truth is somewhere in the middle. The union president as stated that they went to Boeing with a ten year contract extension (
129 Glideslope : Well stated. In a nut shell, the entire ball of wax. Unions don't seem to grasp the reality of today. In that your the product selling your skill to
130 Planemaker : I agree given the programs that are there right now. However, I see Renton being shut down after the last 737NG is built there in 15 years or so.
131 XT6Wagon : Eh, I somewhat doubt all the 737 final assembly will stay there, even if some does. The value of the land and the way the factory is blocked makes se
132 Par13del : Well the way Boeing and the legislatures in WA are now talking they seem to be considering Boeing as a contractor who must be given incentives for pr
133 PPVRA : Even if that is true (which I don't really care if it is or not), who do you have to blame for it? Definitely not SC. They want to cut taxes, remembe
134 FrmrCAPCADET : SC is heavily subsidized by states which are economically successful. Been true for a long time, and now Boeing can share in the further subsidies.
135 PPVRA : SC may not be as rich as some other states, but that does not mean they aren't "successful". Nor does it mean you can claim they would be nothing wit
136 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : First, I'd like to mention a quote that I haven't seen brought up yet...if he truly believes what he said, I have deep concerns! http://www.msnbc.msn.
137 F9Animal : And Washington State residents face the same issue. I think your though process is flawed when it comes to SC residents. They have the 3rd highest hi
138 AirNz : So what are the 'problems' you are mentioning as "lots"? Can you possibly explain to me why the paranoid fixation on 'subsidies' on that side of the
139 Par13del : If true that is not a part of this issue, in years to come if not corrected it will, but I don't think SC demanded that Boeing hire local labour, the
140 PPVRA : And what's your plan, tax all of those drop outs to fund education? Tax the unemployed? Tax the minimum wage of those drop outs? That's gonna get you
141 Stitch : In that Washington is not a Right-to-Work state and does not support "Union Busting", perhaps. Though you are flying the Brazilian flag, I shall not
142 PPVRA : Right to work isn't union busting, though. Unions aren't illegal in right to work states and no politician goes around busting them. Aside from that,
143 BMI727 : Low cost of living and low standards of living are NOT the same thing. St. Louis is one of the cheapest places in the country to live and, as far as
144 Aircellist : My thoughts exactly. One day, many jobs will move out. Like Bombardier setting up a new facility in Queretaro. My thoughts as well. Let's place the b
145 Joecanuck : Boeing said as much before the iam strike. Any strike was going to lead to Boeing building elsewhere. Once they struck, the writing was on the wall.
146 Stitch : Yes. Since they don't teach 787 assembly in high school - nor university, for that matter - their level of formal education is irrelevant as long as
147 L-188 : Quoting F9Animal (Reply 137): I mean, would you feel comfortable flying on a plane that was built by high school dropouts? I don't recall reading wher
148 N328KF : This sounds similar to statements that people with paper certifications (and no real ability to back them up) make about ingenious people who decide
149 Post contains links 4holer : Charleston isn't exactly immune from natural disasters. Certainly hurricanes and large tornadoes are much more likely to hit the plant, but Boeing mi
150 Post contains links Blrsea : The company had decided as early as february that they wanted to move to SC. Thats the reason they didn't pursue negotitations with the unions in good
151 Post contains links and images Luv2cattlecall : To be honest, I would have no problem with that. If anything, their morale would be higher since they don't have $100,000+ in college debt to pay off
152 474218 : The difference is you have days warning before a hurricane hits, an earthquake that's a different story.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
SAS To Get The 787? posted Thu Jan 3 2008 23:47:24 by Abba
Air Europa, In Talks To Get The B-787 posted Fri Sep 7 2007 23:38:11 by SKY1
Kawasaki To Build 2nd 787 Parts Plant posted Mon Jun 18 2007 03:13:52 by Atmx2000
WSJ: BCA May Decide On 2nd 787 Line By Sept. 21 posted Thu Apr 27 2006 18:43:19 by N328KF
All Widebody Operators To Get The 787 Or A350? posted Wed Dec 21 2005 00:46:58 by DIA
AC Likely To Order 777/787 Again posted Sat Jun 25 2005 12:17:18 by Mauriceb
Ghana To Get 2nd International Airport posted Tue Mar 8 2005 09:01:26 by Soups
Frontier Likely To Get DCA Slot Says Article posted Sat Nov 2 2002 17:22:31 by BA
Qantas Likely To Buy 50 More 787... posted Thu Mar 30 2006 03:20:35 by HZ747300
Children More Likely To Survive Plane Crashes? posted Wed Jul 1 2009 07:52:19 by Elite