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Hesitant Landing (Pilot)  
User currently offlineNgr From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 176 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

I was on a flight last week from IAD-CAE on a CRJ-200. The flight was uneventful, and the landing approach was normal, but when we touched down, the speedbrakes and thrust reversers deployed briefly (1-2 seconds), then I could tell some forward thrust was added and the speedbrakes stowed. I assumed we the pilot was going to go-around, but 2-3 seconds later, the speedbrakes and reversers re-deployed, and the plane braked very firmly.

The runways at CAE are certainly long enough for the CRJ's (we landed on the 8000 ft runway), but it seems to me that if the pilot was that hesitant about the landing, they should have executed the go-around.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 6367 times:



Quoting Ngr (Thread starter):
but it seems to me that if the pilot was that hesitant about the landing, they should have executed the go-around.

You're reading way to much into it. Probably thought he could make a turn off, decided against it, then decided to make the turnoff he decided against originally.


User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 6361 times:

Once you have touched down there is no reason (or opportunity) to execute a go-around.

User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 6344 times:



Quoting Ngr (Thread starter):
but when we touched down,

Don't see how you could do a go-around once you have touched down!!



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 6330 times:

sounds to me like he was told by the tower to extend his landing roll, or wanted to go farther down the runway before exiting for a quicker route to the gate. Happens all the time. Nothing to do with hesitant

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 6237 times:

It's the physical equivalent of an optical illusion, but after the strong deceleration you feel when the spoilers are extended & brakes applied, going to a coast with the brakes off and spoiler stowed will feel like acceleration. But it isn't. He either changed his mind on which taxiway he wanted to use, or was told by the tower to extend his rollout. Not a big deal either way, just unusual enough that it's something most passengers don't experience.

As for go-arounds, once the spoilers are deployed on a normal revenue flight, most airline procedures don't allow for continuing back into the air. This is because the runway length ahead isn't known to a sufficient accuracy to allow for a stop/go decision speed to be calculated. However for training flights if the spoilers are disarmed - or if the plane is empty and runway lengths have been verified OK for the purpose, touch & go's can be performed in any aircraft.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 6232 times:



Quoting Wexfordflyer (Reply 3):
Don't see how you could do a go-around once you have touched down!!

You could easily do that. It may not ever happen, but I can see it being possible. Just retract the speedbrakes, turn off auto-brakes (they may turn off themselves with throttle imput), and give the plane full throttle. I've done this once or twice in Flight Sim.

It's also referred to as a touch-and-go.  Wink

-Noah  wave 



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6205 times:

Ground spoilers in modern transports will auto stow when the thrust levers are advanced from idle - in case of a go-around. Once the thrust reversers are deployed however, many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting a go-around.

[Edited 2009-10-28 23:21:41]


FLYi
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6181 times:



Quoting PITrules (Reply 7):
Ground spoilers in modern transports will auto stow when the thrust levers are advanced from idle - in case of a go-around.

That's what I thought, but I didn't want to make conclusions from flight simulator.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 7):
Once the thrust reversers are deployed however, many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting a go-around.

What would the limitation be? That you can't use TO/GA power, or any amount of substantial thrust?

-Noah  wave 



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6160 times:



Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 8):
What would the limitation be? That you can't use TO/GA power, or any amount of substantial thrust?

That a go-around may not be performed once the thrust reversers are deployed.



FLYi
User currently offlineFX772LRF From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 675 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6120 times:



Quoting PITrules (Reply 9):
That a go-around may not be performed once the thrust reversers are deployed.

As mandated by the aircraft itself, or airline rules? I don't see what's stopping the pilot from reaching over and advancing the throttles to full.

-Noah  wave 

P.S. - My 300th post.  Smile



Cleared to IAH via CLL 076 radial/BAZBL/RIICE3, up to 3k, 7k in 10, departure on 134.3, squawk 4676, Colgan 9581.
User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6103 times:

You are probably too slow, and too far down the runway, to safely take off again. Your best option is to just pray that you stop. Like a rejected takeoff after V1, Sure you might be able to stop in time, but chances are you will go off the end of the runway in a ditch. And only in the most extreme circumstances should you not continue to takeoff

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6059 times:

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 10):

As mandated by the aircraft itself, or airline rules?

Limitations are set by the manufacturer, which would then carry over to the specific airline's operating manual for that aircraft.

[Edited 2009-10-29 00:05:59]


FLYi
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 585 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5798 times:

N353SK

...Once you have touched down there is no reason (or opportunity) to execute a go-around...

I regret to say you are not correct, on either count.

Most aircraft are capable of doing exactly that, and many airlines will include a demonstration of it during initial conversion training in the simulator. A major B747 operator in the UK recently included this manoeuvre in its six-monthly simulator check.

As for reasons to do, ATC or the pilot noticing, at the last minute, that there is a runway incursion by another aircraft, a fire engine or police vehicle crossing the runway, an animal sleeping on the runway or protesters running down the runway are all among reasons that have occurred and caused aircraft to go around after touch-down.

However.....

PITrules

....is quite correct to say that:

...Once the thrust reversers are deployed however, many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting a go-around....

They do, and for good reasons!


FX772LRF

...I don't see what's stopping the pilot from reaching over and advancing the throttles to full....

Nothing.

Except the prohibition on doing so, once the thrust reversers have been deployed, which is imposed by many operators and some manufacturers.

Unless you know have a design engineer's or test pilot's knowledge of all the side effects of a particular systems, and know exactly what else will happen when you operate it, ignoring AOM restrictions is extremely foolish.

As an example, a pilot ignoring this prohibition, and doing as you suggest on a B747-400, will learn the hard way, and much to their surprise, that on thrust reverser actuation after touch down, sections of the leading-edge flaps retract automatically - to protect themselves from jet efflux damage.

Now, who would have thought that you could retract part of the leading edge flaps by moving a thrust-reverser lever?

Trying to get airborne, without leading edge flaps, on a B747, is highly dangerous, but, if you are really lucky, you may just get away with it and only be fired!

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1254 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 10):
As mandated by the aircraft itself, or airline rules? I don't see what's stopping the pilot from reaching over and advancing the throttles to full.

This was attempted many years ago (early 70s), by an AAL B727-100 captain at St Thomas, with tragic and deadly results. http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR77-01.pdf

Once the thrust reversers have been deployed, and this is a WARNING in the Airplane Flight Manuals from the manufacturer, a go-around may not be performed.

A - you dont have takeoff and landing distance information, and airline aircrews are NOT test pilots.

B - If a T/R doesnt completely restow, you are now attempting an advance to full thrust with a bucket at least partially deployed, especially if the interlock in the thrust lever mechanisms dont catch the failed restow; the inevitable loss of control will make headlines, break some metal, and will probably be deadly.

[Edited 2009-10-29 05:10:29 by dispatchguy]


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5524 times:



Quoting FX772LRF (Reply 6):
You could easily do that. It may not ever happen, but I can see it being possible. Just retract the speedbrakes, turn off auto-brakes (they may turn off themselves with throttle imput), and give the plane full throttle. I've done this once or twice in Flight Sim

I more meant to say why than how. Though I do see a small number of reasons now.



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineDaBuzzard From Canada, joined Sep 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5350 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 14):
B - If a T/R doesnt completely restow, you are now attempting an advance to full thrust with a bucket at least partially deployed, especially if the interlock in the thrust lever mechanisms dont catch the failed restow; the inevitable loss of control will make headlines, break some metal, and will probably be deadly.

Exactly what happened here http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19780211-0.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

There is no such thing as a hesitant landing. If you don't like the way things are looking, you go around. Thinking about going around, starting to go around, then deciding to land is a very dangerous act, illegal in the states (you'll pass the touch down zone) and has caused crashes. Likewise the a go around is acceptable up until the reversers are deployed in most jets.

Not familiar with the CRJ, but did you happen to bounce? Perhaps the spoilers came down because weight on wheels was gone.



DMI
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5035 times:

The automatic spoilers on the CRJ can be "hesitant" at times. They will waiver a bit on touchdown as the airplane settles down on the shocks.


As far as when you're committed- you can always reject the landing after touchdown until the thrust reverse is deployed. After the T/R's are commanded to actuate, then you are committed.

The spoilers will automatically retract as the thrust levers advance through a certain angle.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3498 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3251 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 5):
He either changed his mind on which taxiway he wanted to use, or was told by the tower to extend his rollout.

My thoughts exactly. I would only add that TWR may have told him which exit to use (a more distant one than he planned) and to "EXPEDITE" to that exit. Those instructions would cause the perceived acft activities and such instructions are NOT that unusual. Just a guess though. One would have to have been in the cockpit to know for sure.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlinePackcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

What brought you down here to Columbia?

I live about 5 min from CAE.



Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

CRJ 200 Skyhawk 172 edition?

User currently offlineNgr From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Thanks for all the responses! Coasting a little further down the runway makes a lot of sense, and I've experienced that numerous times....the only thing that really threw me off was the appearant addition of forward thrust and the stowing / redeployment of the speedbrakes. However it could be like Pilotpip said, and we just had a little bounce to take weight off the wheels.

User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1954 times:



Quoting Wexfordflyer (Reply 3):
Don't see how you could do a go-around once you have touched down!!

I experienced one on a NW 727 at EWR on RNY 29 we had the mains on the runway and did a go around. I personally think they landed long but they claimed another a/c was late leaving the runway which may have been the case.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
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