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Gecas Looking To Place A Firm Order For 787's  
User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 7828 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...terest-in-placing-a-787-order.html

"Executives at GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) are interested in a firm order for perhaps as many as 30 Boeing 787 aircraft. "

I searched but didn't see this posted. If so please delete it.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30648 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 7785 times:
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Bout bloody time they order some. I'm surprised it took them so long.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6870 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 7696 times:

It was really only a matter of time. I suppose the big question now is which engine they will opt for...  cheeky 

User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 7681 times:

This news comes on the heels of Boeings announcment of the side body modification and the second production line in SC. I wonder if companies like GECAS are probably better informed as well?

User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9981 posts, RR: 96
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7431 times:
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Quoting DAL1044 (Thread starter):
"Executives at GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) are interested in a firm order for perhaps as many as 30 Boeing 787 aircraft. "

Some timely good news....

some interesting points..

Quote:
"We expect some delivery slots will open to accommodate an order of that size,"

which is not quite so good....

Quote:
The lessor is "more optimistic" about the stretched 787-9 than the 787-8 and is "interested in anything bigger"



Quote:
If the 787 meets its marketed specifications with respect to passenger comfort, range, weight and fuel consumption, and is priced well, then it promises to be a great aircraft as well as a great investment,"

So they appear to have solid confidence in the final product, which is also good news

Rgds


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 90
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7267 times:
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Also of note is that GECAS are looking at more than 30 airframes all up, from the article

"GECAS would also seek to support previously committed airline customer orders through purchase and leaseback financing. Where there is customer demand, we want to be part of it."

The sale and leaseback deals would be in addition to orders placed directly with Boeing, Carpenter says.


It will be interesting to see which carriers they enter into sale and leaseback deals with. Given the cost of funding for GECAS could well be cheaper than for carriers with low credit ratings it could prove to be a viable alternative for them which will allow GECAS to build and diversify their portfolio beyond the 30 planned direct orders from Boeing.

Regards, Paul



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Now if Boeing can give us a definitive date for completion of the side body modification and nail down a date for first flight I imagine we'll see additional confirmed orders.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6980 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 2):
I suppose the big question now is which engine they will opt for...

 Big grin Big grin Big grin

But good news for the B787 program although their orders might fill-up some slots of previously cancelled orders. But stil, an order is an order. Now we only have to await the final confirmation of the order.  Smile


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1557 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6923 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 2):
I suppose the big question now is which engine they will opt for

Is engine choice such a big issue now that 787 can swap engines? Will we see lessors buying a variety of engines alone to lease onto their customers?

Also, does the 350 allow for a swap of engines?


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

As it beyond hard to believe that GECAS hasn't done their homework on production and how the 787 is likely to perform, this seems like a solid vote of confidence in a trouble program. As they are/would be bringing new money to the table, I suspect they know more about the actual status of the plane that most (not all) of the folks here.

Very nice news indeed assuming that one actually wants the 787 to succeed.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30648 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6892 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 8):
Is engine choice such a big issue now that 787 can swap engines? Will we see lessors buying a variety of engines alone to lease onto their customers?

PM was being facetious. GECAS will of course order GE power for their planes, though they might end up with some RR-powered frames on the sale and lease-back side.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 8):
Also, does the 350 allow for a swap of engines?

Yes, but it won't be as "quick and easy" as it will be on the 787 (though the reality of the 787 is that it will not be as "quick" nor as "easy" as originally planned. Compared to a traditional engine swap, however, it will be both).

At this stage of the A350XWB's design, I wonder how easy it would be for GE to provide a powerplant? I assume Airbus has designed around the Trent XWB so would GE have to adapt their engine to work with that pre-existing design?


User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6828 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
At this stage of the A350XWB's design, I wonder how easy it would be for GE to provide a powerplant? I assume Airbus has designed around the Trent XWB so would GE have to adapt their engine to work with that pre-existing design?

If Airbus hasn't looked at the option to substitute GE's over Trents I'd think they would be shooting themselves in the foot. They would certainly open themselves up for more orders I would think if a GE option was on the table.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

Good news for Boeing and the 787. It's nice to see an order, or talk of an order, this size, and might I add a bit odd because it's been so long since the last order for 787s.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
At this stage of the A350XWB's design, I wonder how easy it would be for GE to provide a powerplant? I assume Airbus has designed around the Trent XWB so would GE have to adapt their engine to work with that pre-existing design?

Interesting point. I would imagine that because GE has not so much as hinted (at least publicly) of building anything for the A350XWB, Airbus has/had no choice but to design the pylon around the TrentXWB. Tough luck for GE.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

I don't think it would be that difficult for GE to adapt their powerplant to fit the A350XWB. Certainly it would be an advantage to both Airbus and GE. How many other types does Airbus currently manufacture that offer more then one type of powerplant at this time?

User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6632 times:



Quoting DAL1044 (Reply 11):
If Airbus hasn't looked at the option to substitute GE's over Trents I'd think they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

You haven't been paying much attention over the last few years.....it's actually the other way around.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6578 times:

I had always thought something like this was going to come along. It seems like GECAS has quite a habit of picking up orders from airlines in Sale/Leaseback programs, and placing less firm orders direct with Boeing than say ILFC. This will make the 787 market more interesting though.


"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6484 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 14):
You haven't been paying much attention over the last few years.....it's actually the other way around.

Actually I haven't been able to pay as much attention as I'd have liked. Preoccupied with work,family etc prevented it but now I have more time on my hands  Smile


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6315 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 2):
I wonder if companies like GECAS are probably better informed as well?

Perhaps the understatement of the year. I'd speculate large leasing companies, airlines and other private interests are well informed on the day to day happenings with 787.

Does an airline purchasing a cancelled aircraft from a previous customer get the penalty the previous airline paid subtracted from the selling price?



757: The last of the best
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6210 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 17):
Does an airline purchasing a cancelled aircraft from a previous customer get the penalty the previous airline paid subtracted from the selling price?

That would be up to negotiation between the parties. I don't know what say Boeing has in their contracts about further assignments, but at this point to keep the order book strong, with a strong buyer would be an added boost of confidence so one would think that Boeing would be reasonable about any such assignment.

For a weaker carrier that may have ordered more than they can pay for, it could be a great deal. The carrier keeps the delay compensation (free money) and potentially gets the return of any deposit, and GECAs gets to buy the plane for the net number (purchase price less compensation) give or take depending on which party to the transaction is the more motivated.

Not sure who would lose under that scenario.


User currently offlineBravo1six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6076 times:



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 18):
That would be up to negotiation between the parties. I don't know what say Boeing has in their contracts about further assignments, but at this point to keep the order book strong, with a strong buyer would be an added boost of confidence so one would think that Boeing would be reasonable about any such assignment.

All the OEMs restrict assignments to a farily large extent as none of them want a secondary market where purchase agreements or delivery positions can be traded freely.

The typical assigmment clause will allow for assignment to a wholly-owned subsidiary or to third party lenders/lessors providing financing to enable the original customer to acquire the aircraft. Anything beyond that typically requires the OEMs consent.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6011 times:



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
But good news for the B787 program although their orders might fill-up some slots of previously cancelled orders. But stil, an order is an order. Now we only have to await the final confirmation of the order.

I highly suspect that any canceled (and open) slots would be eliminated and given to other customers in order to reduce penalties.

Ex. A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P are open slots. The customers holding C, D, G, H, and I cancel. It would look like this: A B E F J K L M N O P, with airframes E and beyond requiring less of a delay penalty.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5868 times:



Quoting Bravo1six (Reply 19):
All the OEMs restrict assignments to a farily large extent as none of them want a secondary market where purchase agreements or delivery positions can be traded freely.

The typical assigmment clause will allow for assignment to a wholly-owned subsidiary or to third party lenders/lessors providing financing to enable the original customer to acquire the aircraft. Anything beyond that typically requires the OEMs consent.

Thanks for the clarity. So GECAS could step in there as a lender/lessor and what terms it offers the purchasing airline wouldn't be subject to Boeing's approval?

Btw, how is that that AirTran and Delta both sold 737's that they contracted to buy but never took delivery on?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30648 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5668 times:
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Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 21):
So GECAS could step in there as a lender/lessor and what terms it offers the purchasing airline wouldn't be subject to Boeing's approval?

Correct. GECAS would just become the new lender holding the title of the aircraft for the airline. Since the actual operator of the plane is not changing hands, just the lien holder, the airline would not be in breach of their sales contract with Boeing.



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 21):
Btw, how is that that AirTran and Delta both sold 737's that they contracted to buy but never took delivery on?

They most likely secured permission from Boeing to make the transactions.


User currently offlineDAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

I'm certain that whatever happens Boeing will make it in their favor. They will have to give some to Gecas as well like they have done others. I just want to see the dang thing fly!

User currently offlineWorldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4697 times:



Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 9):
this seems like a solid vote of confidence in a trouble program.

yeah right, GECAS better show that vote of confidence since GE and the 787 are very very tied toghether, that order would come at the right time, see  scratchchin 


25 PlaneAdmirer : So GE is going to waste more money knowing that the 787 is a flop? I just don't think so. The purchase of the 787 has to be on it's own merits and ec
26 EPA001 : No doubt that is true. But the timing is remarkable. Why now, so late actually in comparison to the hundreds of planes already ordered by so many oth
27 Jambrain : I'd love to be a fly on the wall when RR pitch the T1000 to GECAS so they can assess it's merits and economics
28 PlaneAdmirer : My point was that GECAS is not going to buy the 787 to prop a failing airline program which is what was insinuated in the post that I replied to. The
29 Lightsaber : Good humor for a Sunday (morning). Hey, young kid in the house, so it seems like I just woke up! Interesting quote from the link. Yea, you can have a
30 Stitch : Well the 787-9 matches A330-300 capacity with A330-200 range so I can see how that would appeal to a wide spectrum of carriers. It might also a tacit
31 Tdscanuck : It would be bad business not to. The leasing market is competitive enough that if an airline wants Trents, they're going to get Trents. So GECAS's op
32 Post contains links Jambrain : http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSL1877431520070618 We live in hope
33 Lightsaber : A very flexible airframe. In particular, once it gets down to the target empty weight. I've always been more excited about the 789 (analogous to the
34 Baroque : A quick look at that page might suggest to you that a spokesman for GECAS looks uncommonly like Hamid Karzai. Pity he seems to be more difficult to c
35 PM : Well, GECAS never bought any 777s with Trents and I'm pretty sure they didn't buy any A330s with Trents. In my view it will be a V-E-R-Y long time be
36 Tdscanuck : No, they have not. Good point. Tom.
37 Tdscanuck : Caveat: No, they have not *from Boeing*. Airbus's order system doesn't provide as much detail so I'm not sure about them. Tom.
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