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Qantas SYD-FRA Loads  
User currently offlineBritannia25 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 72 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

How are the loads for Qantas on the Sydney-Singapore-Frankfurt route? Is it busy and are there many connection opportunities at FRA?
The reason I ask is because my friend is flying with QF from MAN to SYD via LHR on outbound but via FRA and LHR on the inbound - this seems a bit odd to me! But hey!

Thanks

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7998 times:
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Britannia25 since Frankfurt is currently the only mainland Europe destination loads are reasonable however they do use the two class B744s on the route (No first) so yields probably aren't great.

The Kangaroo routes make precious little money it is said these days combined with the growth of Emirates/Qatar/Etihad etc the resources necessary for a daily service being 5 or 6 aircraft are better deployed elsewhere.

Cargo uplift is significant however.

As for connections well within Oneworld they are not exactly comprehensive are they ?

The BA codeshare is important as the Frankfurt service is part of the Joint Service Agreement

Just Finnair, and Flybe (BA codeshare flights) to Manchester and Birmingham.

Flybe also fly to Southampton but this is not code-shared with BA.

Interestingly the FRA flight actually carries an Air France code on the Singapore/Sydney leg since QF terminated the Paris service a few seasons ago.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7858 times:

Full, full, full, full, and full.... that is pretty much how QF FRA flights are year in year out. As others have mentioned it is operated with a 2 class aircraft (Y+ is soon to be fitted however). These 2class aircraft hold 56J/356Y pax (plus infants).


54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5080 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7743 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2):
Full, full, full, full, and full....

Agreed- just look at the monthly transport stats... loads are usually 95%+


User currently offlineSmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

I don't know what the chances of it happening now are but there were rumours of a second FRA service from MEL, I think before the GFC they were to short of aircraft to operate it but now they have plenty but I doubt the economics would hold up fingers crossed would be nice...

User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6732 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2):
These 2class aircraft hold 56J/356Y pax (plus infants).

For such a long destination 356 in Y of 744 is very tight.
A380 will be much more comfortable.


User currently offlineFly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6412 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 1):
growth of Emirates/Qatar/Etihad

Actually, until now Qatar do not compete on the kangaroo route as they have no operations to Australia. This will however change in December when they launch three weekly flights between Doha and Melbourne. At this frequency though it will be impossible for them to compete effectively.


User currently offlineRobbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6234 times:



Quoting Britannia25 (Thread starter):
are there many connection opportunities at FRA?

When I've searched for tickets from ARN to SYD I got quite a few options to go with SK to FRA and then onward with QF to SYD. I believe most people book their flights via internet based travel search sites instead of booking direct from the airlines site. So yes, there's a lot of connection opportunities at FRA.



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User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6091 times:
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Robbie86 well if your talking interlining connections i'll give it to you as Frankfurt serves somewhere in excess of 30 to 40 MORE scheduled destinations than Heathrow.

And as i said this is the ONLY Qantas fight to mainland Europe so if you use those internet agent sites and search say GOT-SYD, MXP-SYD, RIX-SYD for instance its inevitable that QF05/6 will be up there.

Currently the only other Mainland European -Australia service is the Air Austral service and all other choices will involve a change in London or Asia be that Hong Kong/Seoul/Singapore/Bangkok or the Gulf.


User currently offlineAirsrpska From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5264 times:



Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 7):
I believe most people book their flights via internet based travel search sites instead of booking direct from the airlines site. So yes, there's a lot of connection opportunities at FRA.

Of course that they booking flights from other travelers sites rather than official airlines sites!
It's much cheaper and you have more choices....
FRA is , you can tell, a hub for mainland Europe, that's the fact! From FRA, you can go anywhere you want.....


User currently offlineJMO-777 From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 500 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Hi,

my flights from FRA to SIN and back in august where both fully booked.

The day my brother was onboard FRA-SYD a week ago was also booked 100%.

Perhaps it's time to switch that route to an A380  Wink

Gruesse,
Jan



~~~ Fly with a Triple Seven and you feel like in heaven ~~~
User currently offlineSmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4530 times:



Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 6):
This will however change in December when they launch three weekly flights between Doha and Melbourne. At this frequency though it will be impossible for them to compete effectively.

However this frequency is only for December, the flight becomes daily in January so only really a month before the become competivie.

I would hope to see an additional FRA frequency with improvements in the economy!


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3314 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

http://www.bitre.gov.au/info.aspx?ResourceId=211&NodeId=103

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/04/Files/FY09.pdf

Pretty amazing.
Loads for 2008/09 averaged over 90% in and outbound.

Seems loads rarely get under 85%.


User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3933 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 1):
The Kangaroo routes make precious little money it is said these days combined with the growth of Emirates/Qatar/Etihad etc the resources necessary for a daily service being 5 or 6 aircraft are better deployed elsewhere.

No - only 2.5 to 3 aircraft are required for a daily service, depending on scheduling.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3730 times:
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DavidByrne

Wrong it really is five.

You forget the fact the the flight sits at Frankfurt for 16 hours add the Sydney curfew and the 27 hour flight time.

Add an aircraft on Mx to the mix and you see 6 aircraft rotate over the route

Thats VH-OJA to E plus OJI and OJJ


Last week saw OJC,OJE,OJD, OJB and OJJ before a return.


User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 14):
Wrong it really is five.

You forget the fact the the flight sits at Frankfurt for 16 hours add the Sydney curfew and the 27 hour flight time.

Add an aircraft on Mx to the mix and you see 6 aircraft rotate over the route

Thats -->VH-->-OJA to E plus OJI and OJJ


Last week saw -->OJC-->,OJE,OJD, OJB and OJJ before a return.
-->-->-->-->
The aircraft are not dedicated to the Frankfurt route, for example -->OJC--> went to -->LAX--> after Frankfurt (Via BNE).
Mondays departure out of -->SYD--> can also do the Thursday departure. So three aircraft are required (plus an allowance for Mx, which could be done during the 18hrs in Frankfurt)

[Edited 2009-11-01 23:26:20]

User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 14):
Wrong it really is five.

No it's NOT! It's 3.

From www.qantas.com.au:

QF5 Dep SYD 16:55 on Mondays
Arr FRA 05:15 on Tuesdays
Dep FRA 23:20 on Tuesdays
Arr SYD 06:25 on Thursdays
All times local.

Giving 10:30 hours to the next FRA departure. Not that I'm suggesting QF actually use this rotation, but the plane is only gone (on a normal schedule) 2 days 11 hours and 30 minutes. Three aircraft are plenty.

Gemuser

[Edited 2009-11-01 23:26:07]


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User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3617 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 14):
Wrong it really is five.

You forget the fact the the flight sits at Frankfurt for 16 hours add the Sydney curfew and the 27 hour flight time.

Add an aircraft on Mx to the mix and you see 6 aircraft rotate over the route



Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 15):
The aircraft are not dedicated to the Frankfurt route, for example -->OJC--> went to -->LAX--> after Frankfurt (Via BNE).
Mondays departure out of -->SYD--> can also do the Thursday departure. So three aircraft are required (plus an allowance for Mx, which could be done during the 18hrs in Frankfurt)

Yes, NZ can maintain two daily flights to LHR (further than SYD-FRA) with just six aircraft - and that includes at least twelve hours in AKL as well - or enough time to do a daily AKL-East Coast Australia flight if required. As Airvan says, the Thursday flight can be operated by the same aircraft that operates the Monday flight, ergo three aircraft required for each daily frequency.

I once did a quick analysis that showed that it was theoretically possible (just) for NZ to run these two daily services with just five aircraft - it involved an actual RTW flight (out via HKG and back via LAX and v/v) but the snag would be to get the slots at LHR that matched - not easy.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

So, if 3 aircrafts are enough to run SYD-FRA, when will Qantas get enough A380 more to get his plane on the Frankfurt route?
And when they have the planes, will they do the switch? Or are there other more pressing / lucrative routes?


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3449 times:



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 18):
So, if 3 aircrafts are enough to run SYD-FRA, when will Qantas get enough A380 more to get his plane on the Frankfurt route?
And when they have the planes, will they do the switch? Or are there other more pressing / lucrative routes?

It is more of a leisure route for QF so if the A380 were to be put on it, it would have to be an aircraft configured with more Y and Y+, less J and maybe no F.



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3415 times:



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 18):
So, if 3 aircrafts are enough to run SYD-FRA, when will Qantas get enough A380 more to get his plane on the Frankfurt route?

Right now it seems as if QF isn't interested in getting further A380s. The next two QF-A380s (no 5 and 6) are still in XFW for outfitting. There were some rumours that the QF inspectors are trying to delay delivery by finding as many flaws as possible. However, delivery is expected for end of 2009.

Furthermore, two QF A380 (QF no 7 and 8) have been stored in TLS until May 2010 after they had made their first flights and they will be delivered at the end of 2010.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3319 times:



Quoting N14AZ (Reply 20):

Right now it seems as if QF isn't interested in getting further A380s.

I wouldn't put it like that! But certainly they are slowing deliveries of A380s down, due to the GFC, but there is no mention of them not taking them at all. I would expect as traffic levels rise over the next few years A380 deliveries will get back on track.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 20):
So, if 3 aircrafts are enough to run SYD-FRA, when will Qantas get enough A380 more to get his plane on the Frankfurt route?

I would expect not before number 11 at the earliest. That's 4 for SYD/MEL-LAX (one daily from each city) and six for SYD/MEL-LHR (one daily from each city). BUT that is the earliest you could expect it, probably later, whatever makes economic sense to QF.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2738 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 21):
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 20):
Right now it seems as if QF isn't interested in getting further A380s.

I wouldn't put it like that!

Well, yes, my comment was a little bit agressive. But it seems now that at maximum only one additional A380 will be delivered this year. The two Emirates A380s, which will be delivered in the middle / at the end of December 2009 are already at XFW's flightline whereas MSN 026 (VH-OQD) is currently in the hangar next to the flightline and MSN 029 (VH-OQE) is even still in one of the cabin outfitting hangars. I doubt that MSN 029 will be delivered this year. Maybe just MSN 026.

Something is strange about QF's A380s. They are now in XFW since April 01st / April 15th 2009 and I cannot imagine that this is only due to Airbus' production problems.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2596 times:



Quoting N14AZ (Reply 22):

Something is strange about QF's A380s. They are now in XFW since April 01st / April 15th 2009 and I cannot imagine that this is only due to Airbus' production problems.

All of them have had to go back to the factory to have faults fixed. One aircraft in particular has had big problems with flight stability... it flies around in a figure 8 vortices motion.
The configuration is wrong also... The Upperdeck configuration is a bit of a shambles.



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2583 times:



Quoting N14AZ (Reply 22):
whereas MSN 026 (VH-OQD) is currently in the hangar next to the flightline and MSN 029 (VH-OQE) is even still in one of the cabin outfitting hangars. I doubt that MSN 029 will be delivered this year. Maybe just MSN 026.

You probably meant to say MSN 027 (VH-OQE).
MSN 026 was delivered in August this year and is currently in SYD preparing to do its regular run to LHR as QF31. MSN 029 will become VH-OQF


25 Post contains links N14AZ : Yes, you are right. Thank you for the correction. And while I was complaining here they have pulled her out of the hangar http://www.aviation-friends
26 AlitaliaDC10 : I've heard from a few QF crew the upperdeck has lots of issues but they didnt go into specifics - does anyone know if the later deliveries will have
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