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Lufthansa Not Selling BD  
User currently offlinePurplebox From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Lufthansa, the German flag carrier, has withdrawn bmi from sale and will concentrate on trying to turn around the loss-making airline itself.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article6898737.ece

PurpleBox.

[Edited 2009-11-01 23:53:14 by PurpleBox]


Next Flights:STH-ATH-STN (A3), BHX-INV-BHX(BE), LCY-FRA-BOG(LH), EZE-FRA-LHR(LH)
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

If BA truly wanted BD, why didnt they buy the 50% from Sir Michael Bishop at 220 million?


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6434 times:



Quoting Purplebox (Thread starter):
Lufthansa, the German flag carrier, has withdrawn bmi from sale and will concentrate on trying to turn around the loss-making airline itself.

If anyone can, then it's probably LH.

I know (or I'm told) that bmi has got itself into a mess but there is surely the basis there for a profitable operation. At the least, bmi has considerable potential. Fingers crossed that LH can realize it.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6436 times:



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 1):
If BA truly wanted BD, why didnt they buy the 50% from Sir Michael Bishop at 220 million?

I think that LH had first option.


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

LH will at least bring focus to the airline, which will already go a long way.

It seems the idea is to get rid of BmiBaby and downsize the rest of the airline to its profitable routes and then maybe offer it for sale in a couple of years (or keep it if it actually makes good money).

Good idea IMHO.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 6356 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
It seems the idea is to get rid of BmiBaby

I wonder if LH have no interest in WW - which I don't think is true, if there would be a mangement buy out of the company? I don's really see any other carriers who would be interested.

I know LH mainline is not interested in the UK LCC market themselves, but there are opportunities. They already have interesting in Germanwings, so WW is not necessarily incompatible with the LH Group as a whole. There may also be opportunities to use the current WW base at MAN to launch a hub, of sorts. This was a possibility before the economy went south, the way things are at the moment, LH would probably prefer to feed traffic through LHR/FRA/DUS/MUC/ZRH/GVA/BRU/VIE(have I left any out?), as appropriate.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 6315 times:



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 5):
know LH mainline is not interested in the UK LCC market themselves, but there are opportunities. They already have interesting in Germanwings, so WW is not necessarily incompatible with the LH Group as a whole.

You have to understand that the creation of Germanwings by LH was not driven by the desire to enter the low cost market itself, but rather by a tactic plan to prevent others (Easyjet) from entering the German market big time and erode LH's customer base in the wealthy Rhein area.

It must be said Lufthansa has done a briliant job at that actually, but I don't think LH will see it as it's key task to to same in the UK for a number of reasons which are pretty obvious, so I wouldn't think WW will be part of LH's strategy in turning BD around.

Better focus on the profitable LHR routes, combined with some routes from BD regional (notably those to LH airline hubs on the continent). The rest should be disposed off, either through selling or closing shop...


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 6274 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
You have to understand that the creation of Germanwings by LH was not driven by the desire to enter the low cost market itself, but rather by a tactic plan to prevent others (Easyjet) from entering the German market big time and erode LH's customer base in the wealthy Rhein area.

It must be said Lufthansa has done a briliant job at that actually

Then how do you explain the existence of AB? It seems that they're thriving/expanding quite nicely especially with the LTU merger.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7471 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 5553 times:

LH have already transferred 126 LHR weekly slots - equivalent to 9 daily rotations - from BD into their own "bank" of slots. This raises their share of LHR slots for this winter's season to 6.0 per cent.

This and last winter's figures for the two airlines are:

BD: Winter 2008/09 1,072 weekly LHR slots.
BD: Winter 2008/09 11.6 per cent of all LHR slots.
BD: Winter 2009/10 913 weekly LHR slots
BD: Winter 2009/10 9.8 per cent of all LHR slots
BD: Winter 2009/10 v. Winter 2008/09 LHR slots -14.8 per cent

LH: Winter 2008/09 430 weekly LHR slots.
LH: Winter 2008/09 4.6 per cent of all LHR slots.
LH: Winter 2009/10 556 weekly LHR slots
LH: Winter 2009/10 6.0 per cent of all LHR slots
LH: Winter 2009/10 v. Winter 2008/09 LHR slots 29.3 per cent

I assume that the 9 new daily rotations include the three TXL-LHR-TXL rotations and, perhaps, the Lufthansa Italia flights.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8339 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 5474 times:
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Lufthansa has its hands full right now with Austrian and SN Brussels integrations. BMI will probably be reduced to a LHR core and maintained for teh next few years until slots values recover. Unlike Vienna, Zurich and Brussels, who have one long haul airline, LHR already has two, so making BMI a third trans-Atlantic airline would seem going into heavily fished waters. LH may find itself as the great Star Alliance custodian of LHR slots.

IF Continental wants a fourth or fifth EWR to LHR flight those BMI slots look juicy to lease from BMI/LH.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 5432 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 2):
If anyone can, then it's probably LH.

Yes they probably could. But do they really want to? They have got their hands quit full at the moment.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):

LH will at least bring focus to the airline, which will already go a long way.

No doubt they will do this.  Smile

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Lufthansa has its hands full right now with Austrian and SN Brussels integrations

That is exactly the reason why I am asking myself the question: "Do they really want to"?  Wink


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

With the CO/UA/AC/LH joint venture over the North Atlantic, as the economy picks up I'm sure some BD slots could be sold/leased to their partners to expand their service at LHR. Outside of EWR/IAH/CLE (CO) and SFO/LAX/DEN/ORD/IAD (UA), are there ant USA markets that STAR would want to serve from LHR? I'm unsure is US are in the joint venture, but moving CLT from LGW might become an option. What chances for a LAS-LHR service, given UA at DEN and BA/VS serving LAS (LHR and LGW respectively).

On the shorthaul front I think LH would look at what routes BD could serve from LHR (as a STAR hub) that can't be effectively served from other STAR hubs, or that LHR is more convenient for. GLA and EDI would seem to be safe, and I'd have thought DUB/BFS/AMS/BRU would be for now too. Not too sure on MAN and ABZ, or anything further afield. BRU may even be trasnferred to SN in case of any future BD sale.

I think LH will look at BD and decide what is best to do based on how it can link in with STAR. For example, why keep an A320 to CAI, when you can codeshare with EgyptAir? As has been said, I think LH will act as a custodian of LHR slots for now, and if they can be better used within STAR over time they likely will be.

Out of interest, if we look at the three alliances, how do their slot allocations at LHR stand presently?



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineGlobeex From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 5063 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Unlike Vienna, Zurich and Brussels, who have one long haul airline, LHR already has two, so making BMI a third trans-Atlantic airline would seem going into heavily fished waters

I definately see your point. However, keep in mind that the intercontinental traffic of VIE, ZHR and BRU are tiny compared to LHR's. Even if put together. Of course that doesn't mean that x-times of carriers will be able to operate out a certain city just because it has x-times more O/D traffic.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Lufthansa has its hands full right now with Austrian and SN Brussels integrations. BMI will probably be reduced to a LHR core and maintained for teh next few years until slots values recover

I agree that LH will slim down BD a lot. However, the fact that Slotvalue might increase over the years is just an additional thing. The main objective will be to turn BD profitable. If they do, LH will keep BD. If they cann't make that happen they will sell.



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineBwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 5019 times:



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
For example, why keep an A320 to CAI, when you can codeshare with EgyptAir

Not to be picky, but (until they leave the fleet as rumoured next year), Cairo is operated on a three class A330, and all flights are code shared with Egyptair!

Most of the crew at LHR are quietly hopeful about our new boss Wolfgang, and are hoping that there will be a management team in place that have a clue about running an airline. We have lurched from one half baked new strategy to another without anything seemingly being completely thought through. There's a huge amount of potential within the company to be unlocked, we just hope LH have a key that fits. Either that, or there's going to be me and 4,300 other people looking for a new job - gulp


User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 4999 times:



Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 13):
There's a huge amount of potential within the company to be unlocked, we just hope LH have a key that fits. Either that, or there's going to be me and 4,300 other people looking for a new job - gulp

Yes you are right. On both points though, unfortunately. If LH won't be able to turn this airline around I personally can't see anyone else being foolish enought to buy and try the same, except a company that is mainly/only aiming at the slots and this would mean your point to.
However, I am (and most/if not all of the a.netters) are hoping for the best for you, your colleagues and BMI.

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 4932 times:



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 1):
If BA truly wanted BD, why didnt they buy the 50% from Sir Michael Bishop at 220 million?

Ummm! they couldn't.......that's your answer.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
DUB/BFS/AMS/BRU would be for now too

You mean BHD of course, not BFS. But yes, I would think that a very safe route for keeping. In fact I'd be completely astonished if it didn't stay.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 4514 times:

This is probably the best thing BMI could have hoped for.
The only question now is does Virgin Atlantic want in?

Otherwise yes, time to restructure. Just a thought for those of you who feel BMI won't expand long haul ex LHR now. LHR is the best O & D destination in europe. Lufthansa and Associates now feel that better then any airline outside BA. Lufthansa, Ex LHR now has the kind of feed to make routes work that Virgin Atlantic doesn't. Yes, there are better places to Hub. But as the economy eventually recovers, there are few better places to draw First and Business class passenngers from, and with Anti-trust immunity with both Continental, United and Air Canada Lufthansa now has a feed on both sides, ex LHR that not even BA has.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8339 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3443 times:
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Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Otherwise yes, time to restructure. Just a thought for those of you who feel BMI won't expand long haul ex LHR now. LHR is the best O & D destination in europe. Lufthansa and Associates now feel that better then any airline outside BA. Lufthansa, Ex LHR now has the kind of feed to make routes work that Virgin Atlantic doesn't. Yes, there are better places to Hub. But as the economy eventually recovers, there are few better places to draw First and Business class passenngers from, and with Anti-trust immunity with both Continental, United and Air Canada Lufthansa now has a feed on both sides, ex LHR that not even BA has.

Star has quite the portfolio at LHR with those airlines, Singapore & SAA just to name a few more at LHR. Feed at both ends of teh Atlantic, wow. How can those BMI A330's not be flying to America from LHR soon ?


User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3321 times:



Quoting Globeex (Reply 12):
The main objective will be to turn BD profitable. If they do, LH will keep BD. If they cann't make that happen they will sell.

Only if there's a buyer at a price the buyer wants to offer. Obviously none currently.

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 13):
There's a huge amount of potential within the company to be unlocked, we just hope LH have a key that fits.

I hope, for your sake, you are right, however times, as they say, have changed and I don't see how a player like BMI can really remain as a separate division of any entity, it's just not strong enough, competitive enough, big enough, as well marketed ... now all things are addressable in good times, just we're not in good times so I predict several years of losses and pain.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
The only question now is does Virgin Atlantic want in?

Golly I hope not. A slot sale in a depressed market would be much more up VS's street with ten new A333s coming from next year (or is it 2011).

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
Star has quite the portfolio at LHR with those airlines, Singapore & SAA just to name a few more at LHR. Feed at both ends of teh Atlantic, wow. How can those BMI A330's not be flying to America from LHR soon ?

Not sure if LH's *A partners want another competitor at Heathrow where every transatlantic player is currently cutting flights or putting smaller aircraft into duty.

Really, LH screwed up badly in allowing itself to be forced to buy an airline that is going to be a drain on its resources and management for several years. Perhaps ten years ago when they got themselves handcuffed, they couldn't foresee this? Trying to turn BMI around will mean cutting routes, staff, selling slots, downsizing ops, selling off subsidiaries, some very clever working of the route network to better integrate into the alliance without cannibalizing LH's continental operations and more. No doubt they don't want to sell at a loss, maybe they should have given a long term view.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7471 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3064 times:



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
Out of interest, if we look at the three alliances, how do their slot allocations at LHR stand presently?

Star had 28.7 per cent of LHR slots during the last summer season:

AC: 168 weekly slots. 1.8 per cent
BD: 1091 weekly slots. 11.5 per cent
CA: 14 weekly slots. 0.1 per cent
SA)">CO: 84 weekly slots. 0.9 per cent
KF: 14 weekly slots. 0.1 per cent
LH: 406 weekly slots. 4.3 per cent
LO: 40 weekly slots. 0.4 per cent
LX: 84 weekly slots. 0.9 per cent
NH: 14 weekly slots. 0.1 per cent
NZ: 28 weekly slots. 0.3 per cent
OS: 70 weekly slots. 0.7 per cent
OU: 18 weekly slots. 0.2 per cent
OZ: 8 weekly slots. 0.1 per cent
SA: 42 weekly slots. 0.4 per cent
SK: 272 weekly slots. 2.9 per cent
SQ: 48 weekly slots. 0.5 per cent
TG: 28 weekly slots. 0.3 per cent
TK: 42 weekly slots. 0.4 per cent
TP: 88 weekly slots. 0.9 per cent
UA: 154 weekly slots. 1.6 per cent
US: 14 weekly slots. 0.1 per cent

Star: 2727 weekly slots. 28.7 per cent

Total allocated: 9,515 weekly slots. 100.0 per cent
Contingency: 9 weekly slots
ATM limit: 9524 weekly slots

(NOTE: The start of line 4 in the above table should read "CO".)

The above data is from the Airport Coordination Ltd web site. They have now published the Winter 2009/10 data but, as has been their habit in the past, they only list the number of slots per airline for the winter season for those (13) airlines with a slot share of 1.0 per cent or more.

The big changes for winter 2009/10 amongst those 13 airlines are for LH/BD (see Reply 8) for BA/IB (with BA taking over all oneworld services between LHR and BCN) and EI and VS.

On the surface it looks as if there has been a transfer of slots from VS to EI. Last winter VS had 317 weekly slots. This winter they have 33 or 10.4 per cent less with a total of 284.

On the other hand EI had 274 in 2008/09 but now have 42 or 15.3 per cent more at 316. These will be the slots for their three-times-daily BFS service they started at the start of the last summer season.

I do not understand the reduction in the VS numbers but I guess that the similarity between their decrease and the EI increase is coincidental. Or isn't it?


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2714 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
I do not understand the reduction in the VS numbers but I guess that the similarity between their decrease and the EI increase is coincidental. Or isn't it?

VS could be leasing slots to EI. Though I also recall VS leasing slots from UA - maybe these are now being leased by EI? With VS having parked two A346s, and leasing out a 744, the lower number of slots could make sense.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

I still like the idea of LH buying 51% of the VS shares from SRB and SQ and then merging VS and BD.

BD fleet could operate the European, African and Middle East routes and feed *A flights at LHR with VS fleet operating TATL, Asian and Australian routes.

And as part of LH VS could join the US-EU ATI perhaps...


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2622 times:



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 1):
If BA truly wanted BD, why didnt they buy the 50% from Sir Michael Bishop at 220 million?

I don't think EU/British competition law would allow for BA to do that. It would give them a massively unfair market position at LHR, which would leave the other airlines without any look in.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-IAH (744-BA), MSY-LGA (319-DL), JFK-LHR (744-BA)
User currently offlineZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Aer Lingus have leased slots from Virgin at Heathrow for the Shannon service. If I recall correctly, the Blue 1 slots at Heathrow are also owned by Virgin. They have plenty of spare slots not being used before they need to even think about buying slots from anyone else.

User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

A couple of weeks ago there was a first indication that LH wouldn't be selling BD for now - when LH subsidiary Germanwings announced its renewed marketing partnership with BMIBaby.
So far they just make their flights available on each other's website. However, this - by itself - is rather pointless, since for now their route networks do not overlap. By next summer, I would expect BMIBaby to venture into Germany and link some of the Germanwings bases with its own.


25 AirNz : They weren't forced at all. They could easily have waived their stance and enacted first refusal rights at any time. Nothing to stop them buying SQ's
26 VV701 : I am not sure that this is correct. in 1999 Bishop and LH agreed a put/pull option that matured ten years later. At that point - i.e. this year - Bis
27 AirNZ : Ah! thanks for the correction there as I was not aware of that detail. I was looking from the point of LH having first refusal as per the original co
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