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Fire On Commercial Airline  
User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

The airline involved in this incident will remain unnamed for the time being However I need feedback from all concerned as do how dangerous a situation this was or could have been This was on a Boeing 737 These are the facts
On Thu 24 Sep 2009, 1525 hrs I took a flight from...................... In large part the flight was uneventful landing at about 1855 local time. However developments on touchdown have not only created great fear within me but also concern on how your flight attendants and crew handled the situation.
First let me point out that I have flown well over 1 million kilometers on commercial aircraft in my life and was actually a traffic reporter flying a single engine Cessna for a Radio station when I was in my 20s So I have a little working knowledge of aircraft albeit not as much with large aircraft however enough to know if there is a problem when I see sparks and flames coming from a wing housing.
Having said that I experience what I would consider a major problem in your aircraft on touchdown and I have had trouble dealing with it ever since the incident occurred On the right hand side of the aircraft under the wing and ailerons about midsection on touchdown there was what I would describe as a major potentially devastating incident that occurred on your aircraft
A large stream of Sparks started to fly from mid section of your aircraft on touchdown. Since my eyes focused on the sparks themselves and not the runway I was unable to tell if it was the bottom of the wing touching the runway or an electrical problem under the wing or both However within a few second the sparks turned to a huge plume of flames as the plane was speeding down the runway on touchdown.
I am quite certain other passengers saw the same thing I did as my fiancé who was with me at the time confirmed she had witnessed but at the time was not aware it was a serious situation. Buy the time the flames from under the wing had subsided it looked like a light housing or other round object was now dangling from the wing on what looked like loose wires and had come partially unattached from the aircraft.
By the time the aircraft had parked on the tarmac there where many ground personal that were aware of the general problem and had signaled there was a problem to other ground crew by pointing to the dangling piece of aircraft with their fingers. Although at that point no other passengers seemed to know there had been a fire under the wing or thought it was the afterburners in the jets (which it was not) The plum of FIRE was not visible by the time we taxied to a complete stop however the emotional anxiety I was feeling at the time was and still is fierce. I had to resist the feeling of fleeing the aircraft for the safety of everyone concerned
Since I have had pilot training one thing I was aware of is not to do something to panic the other passengers however once there is a fire in or on a plane the cabin crew should have started emergency evacuation of the aircraft rather than allow it taxiing off the runway to the tarmac. At this point I am aware that the Captain of the aircraft was aware there was a problem however his lack of action and the lack of action by the cabin crew still create a chilling affect on me. To confirm what I had seen I asked my fiancé once we had come to a complete stop if she saw the fire. She confirmed that she did. I told her to wait as I wanted to make clear what I had seen to the captain. Since the fire seemed to be out by this point I waited for all the passengers to disembark and then went to a flight attendant in the front of the plane and told her I wanted to speak with the Captain and there had been some sort of mechanical problem with the plane .
I needed to let him know about my observation. At that point she notified the Captain. The captain exited the cockpit and I proceeded to explain to him exactly what I had witnessed He then said to me “it was this side of the plain” gesturing to the right hand side I said yes. He then said thanks and proceeded to use his cell phone to make a call I assume it was to someone on the ground but that is an assumption on my part I then exited the plane and joined my Fiancé who was already far away from the plane as I told her to go I have a few questions I need answered. The first is why the Cabin Crew did not do anything. The second question is why the Captain and Co-Pilot Did not inform the cabin crew there was a problem and why there was not an evacuation of the aircraft rather than business as usual.
Any and all comments from members of Airliners.com is greatly appreciated
Dave

[Edited 2009-11-02 06:17:17 by pooky1]

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7839 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
The airline involved in this incident will remain unnamed for the time being



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
The first is why Air Asia’s Cabin Crew did not



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
I assume it was to someone on the ground with Air Asia

It wasn't Air Asia then?

By the way, it is very difficult to read your post without any paragraph breaks.


User currently offlineBwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7814 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
The first is why Air Asia’s Cabin Crew did not do anything.

If this happened on landing, the cabin crew would be sitting at the front and back of the aircraft, and having worked om both the 737 and A320, I can tell you they would not be able to see the wings from the jump seats. Cabin crew would never initiate an evacuation unless the situation is clearly catastrophic (which this wasn't). The flight crew would initiate an evacuation after the cabin has been depressurised and the engines shut down, and only then if they felt this would cause less injuries than waiting to disembark normally.


User currently offlineBx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7810 times:

It is worth pointing out that in some incidents that it is safer to keep passengers on board the aircraft than to evacuate them. Evacuations can lead to injuries, sometimes serious ones. It is a decision that is not taken lightly to evacuate the aircraft.

In answer to your questions

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
why Air Asia’s Cabin Crew did not do anything

Some airlines have a policy that evacuations can only be ordered by the cockpit crew and not the cabin crew. I don't know if Air Asia is one of these airlines.

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
why the Captain and Co-Pilot Did not inform the cabin crew there was a problem and why there was not an evacuation of the aircraft rather than business as usual

Nowhere in your narrative does it state that the cabin crew did not know of the situation. I have explained that it sometimes is safer to keep passengers on board rather than evacuate them. Bearing in mind the outcome I would suggest that this is why no evacuation took place. If you had evacuated and come off the slide badly and broken your back, your view of evacuating due to some sparks and no continuing fire would be totally different. You don't mention fire trucks being in attendance which would suggest that the situation was not as serious as it looked.


User currently offlineCAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7812 times:



Quoting Woof (Reply 1):
By the way, it is very difficult to read your post without any paragraph breaks.

And a lack of a few periods, but it hasn't detoured my peaked interest in this situation..



1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7770 times:

What I am attempting to ascertain is this a serious situation when you see sparks and flames coming from under a wing or is it generally an acceptable situation as long as the plane lands intact

User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

I know I am not a creative writer but I really want to find out what really happened on this flight and if there was potential for serious problems from what had happened Fire does not occur unless there is something to burn and I find it difficult to understand a PLUM of fire coming from a landing light was the sole reason for sparks and fire on landing

User currently offlineFlyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7676 times:

I would imagine you have contacted a lawyer who can find out these answers from airline involved.

AA ORD


User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7651 times:

As of yet I have not contacted a lawyer and really do not want to go down that path unless there was real negligence on the part of the airline. As this point I do not see clearly enough to see if there is negligence This is one reason I am posting here. To get feedback
Any and all feedback is appreciated Sorry for the first posting I am not really used to doing this type of thing
Dave


User currently offlineBx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7577 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Reply 5):
What I am attempting to ascertain is this a serious situation when you see sparks and flames coming from under a wing or is it generally an acceptable situation as long as the plane lands intact

It may or may not be a serious situation, sorry for the vague answer. It is not normal to see sparks and flames. In your own personal situation it was a frightening experience for you, but it was not regarded as a serious situation by those who were privy to all of the information. If it was you would have had the thrill of a ride on the escape slides and fire crews would have been in attendance.

The flames went out, if the fire had remained burning, the situation would have changed to a catastrophic situation thus warranting an evacuation. Situations can change from second to second. I would still be of the opinion it was correctly handled by the crew, despite your feelings on it.

Bwaflyer explained the term some airlines used when deciding whether to evacuate: "clearly catastrophic". This did not fall under this category and thus no evacuation was warranted.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7554 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Reply 5):
What I am attempting to ascertain is this a serious situation when you see sparks and flames coming from under a wing or is it generally an acceptable situation as long as the plane lands intact

Sounds very minor to me. Being it was a 737 my best guess is the landing light bulb went. Nothing at all, but they can make quite the spark shower when they go. On Saab 340's I've seen the lower intake duct go and let me tell you it's quite impressive and will light up a dark cabin.. but it's only that.. a great spark show.. nothing more and not serious.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7491 times:

I appreciate the comment about spark shower but what about the PLUM if fire coming from the bottom of the wing as well ?

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7453 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Reply 11):

Spark showers will very often look like flames.. as well as the release of the electrical energy



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBurner71 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7320 times:

737's have afterburners??

I bet it was fast!  Wink


User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7301 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
Since I have had pilot training

These are really the worst kind of passengers, thinking they know everything and bringing attention to something that is far less serious than they think. You sounded like you wanted to scream FIRE and run. If it was something very serious the cockpit would have known about it.


User currently offlineRcair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1357 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7211 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT



Quoting 413x3 (Reply 14):
Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
Since I have had pilot training

These are really the worst kind of passengers, thinking they know everything and bringing attention to something that is far less serious than they think. You sounded like you wanted to scream FIRE and run. If it was something very serious the cockpit would have known about it.

Hey now- let's not be too hard on Pooky1 - he is new here and I can read in his post this experience was frightening. He paid his bucks to be able to ask a question and deserves a polite response, even if not informative.

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
I needed to let him know about my observation. At that point she notified the Captain. The captain exited the cockpit and I proceeded to explain to him exactly what I had witnessed He then said to me “it was this side of the plain” gesturing to the right hand side I said yes. He then said thanks and proceeded to use his cell phone to make a call I assume it was to someone on the ground but that is an assumption on my

It sounds to me from this - that the pilot may not have known about it - or had unconfirmed reports. Remember, you cannot see the wings (perhaps the tips) from the cockpit of a 737 - so if it was under the wing, the pilot may not have had any clear indication of what it was, or he may have had something, brake overtemp? but nothing clear. Since you cannot see this from the cockpit, the crew would have to rely on a sensor, or external parties saying something. Depending on where the landing was relative to ground crew and tower - they may not have seen anything definitive.

If I were on a '37 landing and saw a shower of sparks and plume of flame from under the wind during landing, I'd be, at least, curious. And while I have confidence in the crew/airport personnel, I'm not above asking a question.

I obviously have no clue what happened, I would have thought a brake or tire problem, (there is a huge amount of energy going into the brakes), but that does not fit the 'dangling' part - and a brake or tire fire would probably continue to produce smoke. It sounds most likely that a piece of cowling or sheet metal or something fell down and hit the runway/landing gear creating sparks and fire - but stopped when the energy being put in them went away. Probably quite benign.

Pooky1, I would not hesitate to contact the airline and ask for an explanation. But remember, things can happen on an aircraft that are relatively normal, or benign failures, but are dramatic. The plane landed safely, there was obviously no major problem - so the systems (human and mechanical) worked. You can fly with confidence.

It might help those here answer more clearly if you described where on the wing - close to the fuselage, mid-wing, tip, and where you were sitting (row).



rcair1
User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7173 times:

I take exception to your comments If I was a poor passanger I would have been yelling *fire* However knowing how people react I had the intelligence enough to quietly speak to the pilot about it . As for the level of seriousness If you see smoke there is fire and so on. If you witnessed flames coming from something other than the jet engine as a lay person you would show concern as anyone would There is always someone in the crowd that thinks they are profilers. You are not a passenger profiler and do not know who I am so kindly refrain from comments as childish as that I have logged more than 1800 hours flying time in aircraft so I do know a little about flying ,

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7138 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):

Sounds very minor to me. Being it was a 737 my best guess is the landing light bulb went. Nothing at all, but they can make quite the spark shower when they go. On Saab 340's I've seen the lower intake duct go and let me tell you it's quite impressive and will light up a dark cabin.. but it's only that.. a great spark show.. nothing more and not serious.

That was my first thought.

Pooky1:

There is a landing light that folds out of the flap track fairing in that very location. It's supposed to be deployed like that. You probably just didn't notice it beforehand.

Also...

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
First let me point out that I have flown well over 1 million kilometers on commercial aircraft in my life and was actually a traffic reporter flying a single engine Cessna for a Radio station when I was in my 20s So I have a little working knowledge of aircraft albeit not as much with large aircraft however enough to know if there is a problem when I see sparks and flames coming from a wing housing.

That just means you know just enough to be dangerous. Sophomoric.

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
Since I have had pilot training one thing I was aware of is not to do something to panic the other passengers however once there is a fire in or on a plane the cabin crew should have started emergency evacuation of the aircraft rather than allow it taxiing off the runway to the tarmac.

Absolutely not. The goal of the flight/cabin crew is to keep the passengers as safe as possible. An emergency evacuation is a contingency, almost a last resort, rather than just a "precaution." Evacuating an airplane is pretty much a guarantee someone will be injured. If this incident was even noticed by the cabin crew/flight crew, they assessed the situation and found it best to keep you inside.

Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
However developments on touchdown have not only created great fear within me



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
Having said that I experience what I would consider a major problem in your aircraft on touchdown and I have had trouble dealing with it ever since the incident occurred



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
the emotional anxiety I was feeling at the time was and still is fierce.



Quoting Pooky1 (Thread starter):
his lack of action and the lack of action by the cabin crew still create a chilling affect on me.

I hope not, but it sounds like you're trying to build a flimsy personal injury case here...



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Thanks for the comment rcair1 It was mid wing just under the aileron I was in row 36 The tower would not have been able to see it since it was on the right hand side of the plane and the tower was to the left of the plane.
I do appreciate your point of view meaning about the plane landing safely I have written the airline however up till now they have only said they have the report and thanks Nothing more from them so far .


User currently offlinePooky1 From Thailand, joined Nov 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7060 times:



Quoting Pooky1 (Reply 18):
I hope not, but it sounds like you're trying to build a flimsy personal injury case here...

This is not to build anything other than get some answers to a few questions I have on a situation that was unnerving . Up until now I have terrible landings , one which ended off the runway as well as a flight with one engine that quite on us. These are things that happen and the crew dealt with them admirably. Since I do not know how crews are supposed to react to any given situation it is not beyond reason to ask . Since I have been on a lot of aircraft and never witnessed a fire on an aircraft before Concern is the very least I would show. This is why I am here
Thanks


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12285 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7060 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Pooky1 (Reply 16):
If you witnessed flames coming from something other than the jet engine

I think if I DID see flames coming from a jet engine I'd be worried (well, not really, there's another engine on the other side)



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineBx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

Pooky1 is entitled to ask questions and have us attempt to answer them without fear of being accused of building up a flimsy personal injury case. I acknowledged that it was an unnerving experience for him and was not a normal situation, but it was not a serious situation. I do however think that the airline should have written back and explained what happened. Passengers are put at ease by being told what happened, both on board and afterwards. They appreciate honesty.

User currently offlineM11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6793 times:

Incidents can seem a million times worse than they actually are when you are on board an airplane. Sparking landing gear does not mean the aircraft is seconds from being engulfed in flames and does not necessarily warrant an emergency evacuation. If you had concerns you should have told the F/A and they would have correctly handled the situation. Deploying emergency slides and panicking people by initiating an emergency evacuation is worse than the effects of a minor landing gear fire.


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1804 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

I agree with most what has been written.

The Cabin Crew cannot initiate an evacuation unless the situation is clearly catastrophic. i.e fuselage fire, fuselage break up, water landing or immediate danger to life. Whatever happened on your flight, it was no where near catastrophic. There is a real big "buzz word" in the industry and that is CRM. Passenger's can play their role in this and whilst I admire you not wanting to induce panic, it may have been an idea to alert the cabin crew so that they could inform the flight deck as opposed to you demanding to see the Captain after.

Evacuating is the last resort and I am sure the right decision was taken. As already mentioned, evacuation is a very abrasive measure to take.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with alerting the crew to this and even asking questions but questioning the professionals judgement, even with some flying experience would be going too far. Not that i am suggesting this is what you are doing.



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineAAMDanny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6411 times:

[quote=Pooky1 (Thread starter):
why the Captain and Co-Pilot Did not inform the cabin crew there was a problem and why there was not an evacuation of the aircraft rather than business as usual[/quote]

He may well have had once he vacated the runway via Interphone.

Im Cabin Crew, and our Flight Deck inform us over the PA a signal (Which I wont recite on here) that basically mean's that they are aware of a Situation... and they are dealing with it. Air Asia may have other forms of communication such as flicking the Non-Smoking sign on and off, for example, Interphoning all cabin crew stations, etc to give this Signal...

The captain can not see his wing from the windows in the 737 (Well not much I believe)

And as for a PLUME of fire... I'm sure the ATC tower would have equally seen it and informed the Flight deck.


25 Tdscanuck : Based on your description, they wouldn't have been able to see anything, therefore would not have known anything was wrong. The flight crew cannot se
26 Pooky1 : I want to thank all the nice people who took time to answer my concerns about this situation I experienced on this flight It has helped some of my con
27 JBirdAV8r : I assume those little barbs were directed at me. I think I was pretty nice and cordial in my answer. There was no need to take offense to my comments
28 KingFriday013 : Airliners.net is a great place to learn more about the workings of the aviation industry. However, I'd advise you to not use this in any judicial pro
29 Pooky1 : Since I know little about commercial aircraft I really do appreciate all the input everyone has given me. It was discerning to say the least but most
30 Rcair1 : Then you have had more 'interesting' experiences than many if not most pilots. I've flow about a million miles and have NEVER been on a commercial fl
31 Pooky1 : Well no lights and an alternator belt gone bad would unnerve me in a car let alone a plane (LOL) Its the luck of the draw. I have had some weird expe
32 HAWK21M : Was this a B737 classic [-200/300/400/500] or an -NG. If its a classic then looks like a problem with the Outboard landing light.I'm surprised the CB
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