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How Is Virgin America Doing?  
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19148 times:

From an arm chair analyst perspective, I look at Virgin America and see an airline that entered a saturated market. The only way a start up will work in the US is if their is a clearly defined niche, and they stay in it. It's obvious, VX is hemorrhaging cash right now, what are these investors seeing?
-They are buying load factor, those fares aren't sustainable
-They have competition currently on ALL of their routes (SFO-FLL) will be the exception...
-The best quarter they’ve had so far, the third quarter of 2008 resulted in a -52% margin.
-Rising oil prices and low fares don't mix very well, especially on long haul routes.
-They are at huge disadvantage when in comes to Intra-California...their product..it's geared for transcon domestics, they will always be behind when it comes to the frequencies of WN and UA.
-This expensive glitzy glamor promotion model stuff gets people to try the product , but doesn't really attract loyal customers.
Can I get your opinions on what you guys think?? Some info on market share on routes?? Maybe some financial results? Maybe some long term outlooks?? How do they keep costs lower than the competition??


Our Returning Champion
137 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19079 times:
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Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
-The best quarter they’ve had so far, the third quarter of 2008 resulted in a -52% margin.

2Q '09 was only -8.4%. Much of the bloody-murderesque margins reported early on included start up costs and other random stuff. VX didn't want to fork over their profit/loss data, but they were forced to.. so they tried their hardest to make the data more or less unusable to competitors by throwing in miscellaneous non-operational costs that would usually be spread over a longer period.



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineSKYYBLUE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18897 times:



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
-They have competition currently on ALL of their routes (SFO-FLL) will be the exception...

JetBlue starts SFO-FLL on November 17th.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19244 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18554 times:

I was recently working in the Los Angeles area. I had a Saturday off. The day before, I thought about going to San Francisco for the day. Unsurprisingly, most airlines wanted $250+ return with such late notice. I checked VX. Shockingly, they were charging just $109 return including taxes for LAX-SFO-LAX! I booked it.

I was amazed by VX: everything was fantastic. I very much look forward to flying them again, and trying B6 for the first time.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18440 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
so they tried their hardest to make the data more or less unusable to competitors by throwing in miscellaneous non-operational costs that would usually be spread over a longer period.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18392 times:

I think they are here to stay. They have clearly won the hearts and minds of the LA set. Another question to ask is what is the long term viability of B6? They avoided LAX like plague and now I have reason to believe the original B6 crowd that drove to LGB have been loyal to VX out of LAX.

I think VX should consider taking on WN on routes like LAX-OAK and LAX-SMF. Right now those routes are monopolized by WN where they have thrown the "lowfare airline" motto out the window and charge $395 roundtrip.

Obviously there is no way to know for sure, but if I had a guess I'd say they are carving out good market share that can sustain price increases and keep loyal following on LAX/SFO to JFK and IAD, MAYBE LAX to SEA but not SFO to SEA and LAX to SFO route.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17801 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 3):
I checked VX. Shockingly, they were charging just $109 return including taxes for LAX-SFO-LAX! I booked it.

I've heard that from far too many people.

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 5):
I think they are here to stay

Unfortunately, yes.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19244 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17673 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 5):
I think they are here to stay

Unfortunately, yes.

Why unfortunately?



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17489 times:



Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 2):
JetBlue starts SFO-FLL on November 17th.

So there's competition on all of their routes....



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17346 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 7):
Why unfortunately?

It's one of the worst business plans in recent memory, with one of the worst executions that has only survived burning through someone else's cash.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17293 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 7):
Why unfortunately?

It's one of the worst business plans in recent memory, with one of the worst executions that has only survived burning through someone else's cash.

What's so bad about their model??? What about SkyBus or Independence Air, I'd call those a few of the worst.

FX1816


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17240 times:
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Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
Can I get your opinions on what you guys think??

I don't know about sustainability but I have seen some of their loads.

Their LAX and SFO-IAD / IAD-SFO and LAX flights are packed.

They must be doing something right.  Smile


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17207 times:
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Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 11):
They must be doing something right.

They also sell a *killer* cold roast beef sandwich.  coffee 


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7540 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17160 times:



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
It's obvious, VX is hemorrhaging cash right now

Don't know why the fear-mongering, but you are a bit out of date. Your post had some saliency a year ago, but now their financial performance is better than several of the legacy majors.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
-They have competition currently on ALL of their routes (SFO-FLL) will be the exception...

All the LCCs have competition on nearly every route (except WN)...and that is a good thing for consumers.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Thread starter):
-The best quarter they’ve had so far, the third quarter of 2008 resulted in a -52% margin.

Old data. I hear they may have had a profit in 3Q09.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 4):
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
so they tried their hardest to make the data more or less unusable to competitors by throwing in miscellaneous non-operational costs that would usually be spread over a longer period.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

If you want to survive in this industry you have to deceive to the point allowed by law which I think they did. I said this same thing last year BTW in post after post. Anybody who took the time to look at their 2008 Form 41 filings in detail could see areas where they were dumping excessive cost that could not be normal operating cost. For example, they were paying for a bunch of planes that weren't flying for a long time and they amortized that into the first several quarters. It's pretty easy to figure out what a plane costs to lease and when you report 2 or 3 times the going rate it's pretty clear it's an out of period adjustment.

They have a long way to go, but I think they are a survivor absent a merger or something like that. I also think Alaska should give up on the ownership questions, the DOT has clearly sided with VX and any further pestering of DOT will only result in DOT turning their attentions toward AS for whatever skeletons they have in their closet.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 17063 times:



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 10):
What's so bad about their model??? What about SkyBus or Independence Air,

Skybus called it quits much earlier in their similar trajectory. I'd say VX has some similarities to Independence Air--trying to go after the premium customer without the premium network.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 13):
If you want to survive in this industry you have to deceive to the point allowed by law which I think they did.

That goes both ways. NK has said it has had several "profitable" quarters, and since it's private and can tap their backers for funds there's really no telling how accurate that is.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7540 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16965 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
That goes both ways. NK has said it has had several "profitable" quarters, and since it's private and can tap their backers for funds there's really no telling how accurate that is.

I've also heard they have made money the last 4 consecutive quarters. I think it's probably true. Anybody who says either NK or VX is on the verge of going out of business is just rumor-mongering based upon ZERO real information because there is no real information to base such a claim on. I just discard those types of comments now. If NK survived oil at $150 while offering $9 fares (not every seat, of course) they must be doing great now by comparison.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13702 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16932 times:
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Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 5):
I think VX should consider taking on WN on routes like LAX-OAK and LAX-SMF.

I completely agree!  duck 



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16905 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 10):
What's so bad about their model??? What about SkyBus or Independence Air,

Skybus called it quits much earlier in their similar trajectory. I'd say VX has some similarities to Independence Air--trying to go after the premium customer without the premium network.

I'm sorry I must be tired but what do you mean by going after the premium customer without the premium network???

FX1816


User currently offlineKleiner From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16215 times:

I feel MaverickM11 is just out to slam VX without any real data or valid points. The VX plan is do it different and provide a better experience, with the financial backing to do so. Sounds like a sustainable plan to me.

The writing is on the wall: B6, WN & VX have the momentum. The legacies are loosing it.


User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16167 times:

My friends like Virgin America.


Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4463 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15988 times:



Quoting Kleiner (Reply 18):
B6, WN & VX have the momentum.

I flew all three within the last month and US, UA, AA, DL, NK, CO also.
Those 3 offer great products, great prices, incredible service compared to the legacies.
I think VX is doing a great job.


User currently offlineSevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15882 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Skybus called it quits much earlier in their similar trajectory. I'd say VX has some similarities to Independence Air--trying to go after the premium customer without the premium network.

SFO / LAX / JFK / BOS / IAD / SEA / LAS / SNA / FLL / SAN

Domestically, It doesn't get much more premium than that!

A limited network? Granted. But what they have is undeniably premium.

Having flown pretty much all the major U.S. carriers, VX comes out top IMHO. Closely followed by B6. Crucially for an airline in their stage of life, even the people who don't agree with their business plan or means of obtaining financing all seem to love the product.

At this stage the only thing that remains a danger to VX is having their financing suddenly pulled, which could conceivably give them a cash flow problem over the winter. however, I would imagine that any investors thinking of bailing would have done so already.

They look infinately more viable than they did 12 months ago, and the numbers keep improving.

In my worthless opinion they will be around for a while yet...



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15741 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 11):
Their LAX and SFO-IAD / IAD-SFO and LAX flights are packed.

They may be packed but I purchased a r/t LAX-IAD during Thanksgiving week for $200 plus tax. It is just the aggressive yield management that most airlines use to keep most flights full. Airlines on the edge of bankruptcy are full. It has been clear for quite some time that loads are not indicative of financial success.

The other problem on LAX-IAD is that they only have two flights per day in each direction. Although they operate at the prime hours, business passengers probably prefer the frequencies that UA and AA provide on that route.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15738 times:



Quoting September11 (Reply 19):
My friends like Virgin America.

Same here my wife and I took our son to New York summer of 2008 and we flew them LAX-JFK and I really enjoyed the trip, it made the 7 hours on board the A/C much more bearable having friendly staff and plenty to do.

FX1816


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17780 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15456 times:



Quoting Kleiner (Reply 18):
I feel MaverickM11 is just out to slam VX without any real data or valid points.

There's plenty of data

Quoting Kleiner (Reply 18):
The VX plan is do it different and provide a better experienc

That's their plan in a nutshell. A lot of feel good-speak, some mood lighting, some social networking, and fingers crossed that it works.

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 17):
I'm sorry I must be tired but what do you mean by going after the premium customer without the premium network???

If you want the customer who pays the high fares, you need a schedule that offers them a lot of flexibility, both in terms of destinations and frequency. VX doesn't have much of either.

Quoting Kleiner (Reply 18):
The writing is on the wall: B6, WN & VX have the momentum. The legacies are loosing it.

B6 yes. WN is solidly LCC in terms of performance lately. VX can keep dreaming.

Quoting Sevenheavy (Reply 21):
SFO / LAX / JFK / BOS / IAD / SEA / LAS / SNA / FLL / SAN

Domestically, It doesn't get much more premium than that!

Do you think a lot of companies are going to sign up with an airline that flies to 10 destinations? Several carriers tried NYCLON several different ways; it's one of the most premium markets in the world. They all had great service; and they're all gone.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 22):
They may be packed but I purchased a r/t LAX-IAD during Thanksgiving week for $200 plus tax. It is just the aggressive yield management that most airlines use to keep most flights full.

I've heard that way too often for one carrier.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 15):
Anybody who says either NK or VX is on the verge of going out of business is just rumor-mongering based upon ZERO real information because there is no real information to base such a claim on

As long as their backers keep providing funding, they'll stick around.



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Enilria : Again, VX has a dramatically upward trajectory, their results have improved massively and are close to or exceeding breakeven. FLYI and Skybus (and X
26 FlyFitch : Any word on potential expansion? It would be great to see some new cities on their route map.
27 Sevenheavy : I thought I already made that pretty clear with: I know full well they have a small network. Thats not the same as premium. NYC-LON once or twice a d
28 FX1816 : Ahh now I get it thanks!! FX1816
29 MaverickM11 : There was no where to go but up There's a difference between going to the market to raise funds and tapping one of Branson's friends who owe him a fa
30 MSYtristar : I'm told by a very good source that MSY should be opened in 2010 with service to both LAX and SFO. So, I'm patiently waiting on that announcement. I'
31 ThegreatRDU : Is it good for the airlines? no. that's ultimately what where talking about here The frequencies are just not there especially Intra-California They
32 AmtrakGuy : Here in Washington, DC -- I haven't seen any of their advertisements. I don't even know anyone talk about or flew VX. I don't think they have much of
33 Sevenheavy : Well, one could argue that they are a niche carrier even now. The full service / low cost model is not replicated in the same way with any other U.S.
34 Harske : Greetings. I live in Sterling, VA (IAD) and work in Los Angeles. I fly back home every 2 weeks for the weekend, and up until 3 months ago was flying J
35 SANFan : And my hope remains that 2010 will finally see some connecting-the-dots between existing stations. The history of the growth of VX needs to be measure
36 KGAIflyer : --My AARP-Travel friends all know about them. --My friends who use Orbitz all know about them. --My neighbor who works in downtown DC for the AFL-CIO
37 Dfambro : Here's a perspective from a heavy business traveller. I like VX but will only give them PART of my business. I'm based on Boston and have been 1K on U
38 SNATH : I'm not surprised. Given that you're a Ryanair fanboy, VX would feel like first class to you. Tony
39 L410Turbolet : I wish someone in Europe would try to come up with JetBlue, Virgin America style of a low-cost, but so far anyone who tried to run a business with at
40 WROORD : I do hope VX will get some gates at ORD.
41 Ridgid727 : Obviously you're unaware of some of the contracts they have out of LAX, SFO and JFK,who send hoards of business travellers in each direction, and use
42 Clickhappy : I booked two Main Cabin Select tickets SEA-LAX over the Thanksgiving weekend for $470/each, RT. Not a great deal, but I am excited to try their produc
43 JHCRJ700 : I think VX is great. I am very excited for my first flight on them this summer. They are a refreshing in the current US domestic airline scene.
44 Qantas777 : you are right, market is saturated, there is no need for them to be here , along with 4-5 other carriers in the U.S. Too many seats and murdering the
45 HZ747300 : Hmm... I think if Branson were allowed to create a global brand that would work seemlessly this would be a much stronger operation. US laws around thi
46 Enilria : Ask Skybus if there was nowhere to go but up, they did worse and worse... Not much difference and that is speculation about where VX is getting its m
47 Micstatic : That's like saying if I could start over today being rich, I'd never have to work again
48 SurfandSnow : Ah yes, but Independence Air was around during far better economic times, and it did not face absolutely cutthroat competition on many of its routes.
49 ThegreatRDU : That is not a niche, Allegiant Air has a niche, porter airlines has a niche...VX has a vision.but not a niche..I see an airline entering crowded mark
50 Enilria : MaverickM11 didn't qualify his comment, so it is still incorrect. I would argue that VX's business plan is far better than Independence Air's ever wa
51 Aerokiwi : There's always out-of-business. So really is this just some personal dislike of Branson streaming forth - sigh. It's a new airline - what do you expe
52 MaverickM11 : No, not at all. If the legacy carriers had the fleet and employee age of VX for instance, there'd be no VX. No this has nothing to do with Branson or
53 ThegreatRDU : Niche or target customer? I want to say that but I really believe Maverick was on to something...I mean on paper, the airline is simply not feasible.
54 MAN2SIN2BKK : I hope so to after experiencing the joke that United call First from ORD to LAX recently
55 Luv2cattlecall : Completely agree! Just pointing it out.. I'd rather them burn through a private investor's cash than burn through our cash via gov't bailout and bank
56 Slinky09 : Only partly true, I use VX JFK-SFO/LAX and the schedules are just fine for me - and I travel first. Similarly, some legacies have used bankruptcy pro
57 Airport : I don't entirely disagree with the argument that there are flaws in their business plan, as it does seem (someone correct me if I'm wrong) like bad ti
58 Kleiner : MaverickM11 is just trolling this thread. I think we all see it.
59 EA CO AS : I see. So someone isn't entitled to have an opinion that differs from yours? How tolerant and enlightened of you...
60 Micstatic : You are still missing the point. They don't have the fleet and employee age of VX, nor will they. It's a pointless argument.
61 Aerokiwi : Nor are most of the legacy carriers, indebted to the eyeballs and frequent residents of a little government sanctioned screw-your-creditors scheme kn
62 Sevenheavy : The definition of "niche" in this context: "A special area of demand for a product or service" You don't have to do something completely different, l
63 Ben175 : Let me to tell you guys, from an Australian perspective - Virgin America is my ideal way to travel within the US. I'm paying over $2000 US for a two o
64 Pe@rson : Last year I flew NW DTW-EWR aboard one of its DC9s. While it was fun - an old aircraft and such - the product was shockingly poor in comparison to VX
65 Enilria : There is a tendency to classify airlines by route network, but a niche is really customer oriented. In most industry's a niche is designated by the c
66 ThegreatRDU : It's a beautiful day down here in NC, the sun is out and not a cloud in the sky..... I said you were talking about premium service (which you were) an
67 Sevenheavy : Fair enough, but again, market share does not neccesarily mean success. The real priority is making a profit with what they have. As you said in your
68 UALWN : I reckon that SRB is behind VX's business plan, and he has shown through the years to be a little bit more astute than what you make the business pla
69 MaverickM11 : The US industry is the most hyper competitive airline industry in the world, suffering from many things including overcapacity. It's absurd to believ
70 UALWN : Mixed? I think VA fighting it off against BA throughout all these years is enough to convince anyone that SRB knows what he's doing. You forgot Virgi
71 Mariner : Market share is no guarantee of profitability. A couple of profitable flights a day, or even just one, is preferable to a dozen that are losing money
72 Slinky09 : That it may be, and it's interesting that you continue to defend what is a heavily subsidised, supported by protectionists, bolstered by Ch11 legisla
73 MaverickM11 : I'm not so much defending it as pointing out that VX brings nothing new to the industry other than a lack of expensive history. VX will likely never
74 Aerokiwi : I wasn't aware that "bringing something new" to the industry was a prerequisite for a new airline entrant in the United States. Intriguing - is this
75 Micstatic : wow! I'm going to opt out. I had no point to make. I was speaking in rebuttal to your point. I don't have time for a circular argument.
76 PHX Flyer : Don't you think you are abit biased here? I don't dislike Virgin, I actually would like to try them one day (if they ever come to PHX, that is). Sinc
77 ThegreatRDU : B6...... I'm in SAN alot in the summer...Poway, CA I'll try them on a hop to SFO or something Yep, but their costs and debt keep rising...and these k
78 Enilria : SFO was FAR, FAR, FAR from the most competitive market in the country when it announced that would be its hub. There was hardly any LCC service and s
79 Mariner : Any number of airlines buy load factor when they start up - or start new routes. Virgin America's improving numbers suggest that it is working for th
80 Huaiwei : Yeap this line is a dead give away:
81 BMI727 : There will always be people who think that they can make a buck flying planes. Most of them will be wrong. Like others have said, all startups do tha
82 AsoRock : Richard Branson really put his heart into the Virgin America project, unlike Virgin Nigeria where he put little capital and milked that airline dry in
83 F9Animal : I think VX should steer clear of competing with WN. They are too small, and not strong enough to go head to head with them. While I somewhat agree wi
84 Sevenheavy : I agree, their Y product is very similar I was thinking about B6 at the time, and probably should of quantified my statement......by "full service" I
85 AusA380 : What I would like to see is better round the world ticket integration between VX and VS/VA/DJ. I recently had a round the world business trip and want
86 MaverickM11 : Virgin Express? It helps if you don't want to go out of business The bay area had plenty of competition, never mind the West Coast corridor. Granted
87 Live2fly83 : love em, but their STILL loosing money both sides are technically speculating well see whats up when their 3Q financials post
88 Lightsaber : Yes and no. FLYI was improving, but the CRJ costs put them in a death spiral. By the time they had a chance... people realized they were doomed and t
89 Mariner : One of my uglier nightmares. mariner
90 F9Animal : No mistake about B6 in comparison with VX. I agree with you there. I was just saying, many were giving B6 grief, saying they would never make it. If
91 Flighty : No-one was arguing the US is in need of capacity. What we do need is better quality. VX is an animal that can provide better quality. That is how cap
92 Lightsaber : Touche' As an enthusiast web site, we each cheer on different teams. Lightsaber
93 SANFan : VX and WN already compete on 4 routes out ot SFO: SAN, SNA, LAX and LAS. There is not much similarity between the frequencies offered by WN and VX on
94 AirbusA322 : I do note VX's fleet numbers of a significant size, and considering they have grown so fast and have had to ride out extreme fuel prices and the GFC,
95 UALWN : Selective quoting should be frowned upon. This is what I wrote: "Mixed? I think VA fighting it off against BA throughout all these years is enough to
96 MaverickM11 : B6 has recently started focusing more on the mix of local/flow which does allow them to push up their RASM. VX obviously doesn't really have that opt
97 ThegreatRDU : With $500 a month labor Yes and that can be attributed to them finding their niche and staying in it.....
98 MAN2SIN2BKK : I agree, I hope that with the entry of VX to the market that the US legacy carriers will be forced by their customers to improve the level of service
99 Aerokiwi : Indeed. It seems a strange contradiction of Maverick's argument that at once Virgin America isn't big enough (destinations, frequencies) yet examples
100 Flighty : Oh I agree that VX investors can expect a very risky future. It's not what you call intelligent investing. But I do like what VX is doing to the airl
101 XT6Wagon : Yes its nice what they are trying. This is the problem. VX was started with no expectation of any ROI. Naked attempt to distort the market and wreck
102 Slinky09 : And look at how AA nakedly moved into STN to destroy MaxJet, then as soon as they had, moved out again. Cool. Nice legacy.
103 TG992 : Can't be the worst if they are here to stay
104 LACA773 : Actually on certain days of the week VX has more departures than AA-4 vs 3 on AA (LAX route). Since AA flies 73Hs, their capcity is basically the sam
105 Mariner : I thought the first bank of investors did okay. It wasn't a huge return on their money - 8%? - but it was a lot better than a poke in the eye with a
106 Aviators99 : Once this DOT stuff is over, they can get on with their (real) business plan. Then you'll have to switch to a different argument, like you did from t
107 Enilria : True, but I salute those who try even if they destroy their nest egg in the process. Neeleman has started how many airlines now? So, you are saying t
108 MaverickM11 : Which would be? That's never been the case, and even it if it was WN will have long killed UA and VX before VX does much meaningful damage. Getting t
109 Mozart : I am happy to add my European perspective: Legacy carriers from the USA to me (and most Europeans) are like God's message that man isn't supposed to
110 MaverickM11 : I think you're confusing legacy carriers with the EU government
111 Enilria : So you are saying, that when B6 started at JFK (pre-Air Train) it was very hard to get there relative to the ease of SFO? So, doesn't that support my
112 MaverickM11 : B6' plan was the stereotypical 'generate demand using out-of-the-way airports' plan with a revolutionary (at the time) product. There's nothing parti
113 Post contains links and images Airport : And if there is a market that desires it, what's wrong with that? The "iPod" of airlines? That statement alone seems to imply that they in fact are d
114 Aerokiwi : You seem to rely on this as some sort of basis for dissing VX. But it doesn't really make sense - you've yet t oexplain why an airline has to bring s
115 Flighty : They should hope to be the iPod of airlines. This would give them a majority market share and large profits each quarter. And, of course, some detrac
116 MaverickM11 : Turn up the lights and you have B6, F9, AC, DL, or soon CO... I've never said that. I don't know but I keep seeing it repeated in the press and I'm p
117 Anonms : We're referring to it with the mood lighting on. And frankly, I find flying on VX more pleasurable than WN. The mood lighting relaxes me. By this poi
118 Atomsareenough : Why are the LCC and new entrant ASMs less legitimate or acceptable than the legacy carriers? Why can't it be a legacy carrier that "folds or merges"?
119 ThegreatRDU : Believable Give me a break JFK is New York's primary airport.. Let's not be hypocrites... Right now, they are still pricing below costs....this isn't
120 Post contains links Airport : Thanks for the comment. Here's a post I made on the subject. It'd start off with only a couple of destinations with Beech 1900s...as low-risk as poss
121 MaverickM11 : So it is the mood lighting What I'm hearing is that legacy overcapacity and buying market share = bad but VX doing the same thing = good.
122 Kevin752 : You will not be seeing me flying them. However, time will tell how well they are doing or not. I think that is the best way to say it. They really too
123 Anonms : Well, for me, it's certainly a factor. It sounds trivial, but it's cool and, along with the seat colors, definitely gives the cabin a break from the
124 DocLightning : I agree. Packaging goes a long way. The whole branding of the aircraft on board speaks to a very different kind of experience. And that's exactly wha
125 Flyinghighboy : Flew VX from SFO to LAX WOW! Just amazing. I've flown a few domestic flights in the US on US, AA, UA and CO. Honestly I found the service average on t
126 Aerokiwi : Umm, haven't you been arguing throughout this thread that VX doing what the legacies are doing = bad...? That is, "buying" marketshare, operating the
127 Joemac547 : I agree completely. Last year (and 8 OF THE PREVIOUS TEN YEARS ) : 1k on UA. This year 25,000 miles, the rest on VX (and SQ). I just got tired of bei
128 DocLightning : The big issue that I have with VX is the lack of an alliance. I wish the Virgin airlines had some reciprocity for, say, FF programs. Unfortunately, be
129 ZweiBierebitte : Definitely have to agree here. IMO there is nothing more terrible than stepping on board a plane before the sun rises only to have the harsh fluoresc
130 MaverickM11 : Pretty much.
131 Anonms : For sure, I had the last flight to SAN out of SFO on a really stormy day. My flight wound up delayed by 4 hours and I was freaking out. And then I ge
132 Dfambro : Nice to see folks like the mood lighting, but IMO it looks like my 4 year old daughter designed it, all pink and purple. It doesn't do much for me, bl
133 Atomsareenough : You can hear whatever you want to, but I'm saying that they should be held to the SAME standard. On the other hand, *you* are the one who seems to be
134 MaverickM11 : You're arguing the same thing that I am. No, not at all. They're the same in that regard.
135 Atomsareenough : Okay then, I guess I must have misconstrued your comment in post #69 of this thread. At any rate, I'm glad we agree!
136 ThegreatRDU : How is SFO-FLL doing?
137 Live2fly83 : ? I would atribute that to B6 early years VA is 2+ years old, 10 cities and fleet of 28
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