Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7586 posts, RR: 58 Posted (1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3533 times:
BA posted a record net loss of 217 million pounds ($360 million) in the six months ended Septemteber 30, widening from 49 million pounds a year earlier. Sales fell 14 percent in the six months to 4.1 billion pounds and are likely to decline by 1 billion pounds for the full year. That suggests the slide will slow to 8.2 percent in the second half.
However, the situation seems to be normalising considering that BA gained as much as 8.1 percent in London trading after the carrier said premium traffic fell only 1.4 percent last month versus a 7.9 decline in September and that volumes and yields, a measure of revenue per passenger, apparently are now stable.
This will not deter the airline to continue its cost cutting measures and more staff will be reduced. It plans to cut a further 1,200 jobs and continue its cost cutting measures including the review of onboard service and reduction in capacity.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16782 posts, RR: 58 Reply 1, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3524 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter): BA posted a record net loss of 217 million pounds ($360 million) in the six months ended Septemteber 30, widening from 49 million pounds a year earlier.
For comparison, FR earned a net profit for the half-year of £347m (€387m/$575m) - despite yields falling 17%. Moreover, FR's Oct pax figures increased 15% to 6.2m, verses a 4% reduction with BA to 1.6m.
Good to see BA taking hopefully decisive action, although I hope short-term action does not come back to bite it later.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7586 posts, RR: 58 Reply 2, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3464 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1): Good to see BA taking hopefully decisive action, although I hope short-term action does not come back to bite it later.
And there is also another structural issue which will keep affecting BA results: the fact that BA operates highly premium configuration aircraft and this will continue underminig BA results since it is difficult to take remedial measures in the short to medium term.
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3260 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3396 times:
Poor BA seems like an airline in big trouble. Too bad because I have always enjoyed my flights on BA - I hope they make it out of this mess!
Good luck to all of the people who are going to be out of work as well. This is a tough time to be out there looking for a job.
Cloudyapple From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jul 2005, 1952 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3323 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter): the situation seems to be normalising considering that BA gained as much as 8.1 percent in London trading after the carrier said premium traffic fell only 1.4 percent last month versus a 7.9 decline in September and that volumes and yields, a measure of revenue per passenger, apparently are now stable.
I am skeptical about this statistics. 1.4% decline in October 2009 compared to October 2008 - which was the month in which the things first went crazy. And we have 7.9% decline for September 2009 compared to a modest month of September 2008. Is it really getting any better?
Jfk777 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3484 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3249 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 3): Poor BA seems like an airline in big trouble. Too bad because I have always enjoyed my flights on BA - I hope they make it out of this mess!
Good luck to all of the people who are going to be out of work as well. This is a tough time to be out there looking for a job.
Why doesn't BA just take out some Club World and add coach seats, it hasn't done that. So many other airline have done this, BA is too Premuim.
Caribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3142 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Why doesn't BA just take out some Club World and add coach seats, it hasn't done that. So many other airline have done this, BA is too Premuim.
My view is that the market is becoming so much differentiate.
There is a Jet-Set that still can afford premium service and there is aswell a big majority that want to pay for the transport service and nothing else. And that gap is increasing at high speed.
In this climate, IMHO, the Companies have to take the difficult decision about which part of the market they want to cover.
You can go either for the premium (high margins, low volumes) or for the general public (low margins, higher volumes).
But being in the middle point, as BA is now, will create big losses.
The "mixed" companies (premium+LCC) are meant to disappear in the near future.
AirNz From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3120 times:
Quoting Caribillo (Reply 6): The "mixed" companies (premium+LCC) are meant to disappear in the near future.
Sorry, but could you clarify that please as you seem to be saying flying is either Premium or LCC? Such a view is complete nonsense.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7586 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
Quoting Caribillo (Reply 6): My view is that the market is becoming so much differentiate.
There is a Jet-Set that still can afford premium service and there is aswell a big majority that want to pay for the transport service and nothing else. And that gap is increasing at high speed.
In this climate, IMHO, the Companies have to take the difficult decision about which part of the market they want to cover.
You can go either for the premium (high margins, low volumes) or for the general public (low margins, higher volumes).
But being in the middle point, as BA is now, will create big losses.
The "mixed" companies (premium+LCC) are meant to disappear in the near future.
IB apparently is well prepared to weather the current difficult scenario. It has aircraft configuration with 2 well defined classes, a good sized premium cabin offering a good product (IB recently decided to remove one row of seats from business class to transform seats into lie flat - 180 degrees) while it also enjoys a niche market strategy focusing on Latin America, a market less affected by the recession.
BA as mentioned has a poor configuration with excessive premium seats, while its focus on the North American market where it directs a significant share of capacity also seems to backfire.
Last but not least, there is the LHR hub problem, which is an airport many pax avoid due to its inherit problems.
Caribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2959 times:
Quoting AirNz (Reply 7): Sorry, but could you clarify that please as you seem to be saying flying is either Premium or LCC? Such a view is complete nonsense.
I meant that the market is more polarized than before.
FR would agree with my view, and the new BA A318 could be a symptom of that.
Nonsense is a very strong word, by the way. If you don't agree with me, show me your point and try to be polite, please.
Thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 950 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2917 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Why doesn't BA just take out some Club World and add coach seats, it hasn't done that. So many other airline have done this, BA is too Premuim.
I agree, BA needs to get rid of some premium seats, especially on the 777. 48 Club World seats seems too much on certain routes, such as YUL. That could explain why they now switch to 763 during the winter season.
Now, on to a more important question. What routes will be axed because of this mess?
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
AirNz From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
Quoting Caribillo (Reply 9): I meant that the market is more polarized than before.
FR would agree with my view, and the new BA A318 could be a symptom of that.
That's fair enough, but why not simply describe it that way......seemed a bit arrogant to be putting it across as there is only premium and LCC. Doesn't matter what FR agree/don't agree with as it's about BA, and an entirely different thing altogether. The new BA A318 could be a symbol of what exactly, or what are you implying in that regard? In fact, I completely fail to see what the A318 has anything to do with the discussion at all.
Quoting Caribillo (Reply 9): Nonsense is a very strong word, by the way. If you don't agree with me, show me your point and try to be polite, please.
I wasn't trying to be impolite. It had nothing to do with either agreeing, or disagreeing with you and the point I was making was that the 'view' which you stated was what I said.....nonsense. However, you've now said that's not what you meant.....therefore, I wouldn't have applied it had you actually said what you meant in the first place.
Mutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 401 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2609 times:
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 10): Now, on to a more important question. What routes will be axed because of this mess?
None other than the capacity cuts already implemented (these losss were entirely expected). Liquidity at £4bn means the issue is getting costs in shape sooner rather than later, as opposed to "survival" albeit the CEO did use that word sme months ago when he was (and actually still is ) fighting multiple fronts - unions, regulators and IB management
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 10): I agree, BA needs to get rid of some premium seats, especially on the 777. 48 Club World seats seems too much on certain routes, such as YUL. That could explain why they now switch to 763 during the winter season.
I think there are many airlines with hi premium configurations (including Y+ increasingly) in the marketplace. The majority of BA 744s have 52J seats. The 777s have fewer. What are the actual numbers for AF, LH etc? How about a proper comparison before accusing BA of being premium heavy.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8): BA as mentioned has a poor configuration with excessive premium seats, while its focus on the North American market where it directs a significant share of capacity also seems to backfire
Ditto. As to USA coverage, well whether they like it or not, UK US traffic is very substantial so that is where longhaul airlines oughtto be focussed (VS similarly has a very large % flying programme TATL). Where else should BA fly (remember to operate a new flight they have to can another one due to slot constraints) where there is strong UK demand?
Many years ago before planes could fly the ranges they can today, LHR was a necessary stopping point from USA to Africa and Middle East and BA was able to provide connectivity. Now much of that traffic flies non stop point to point by passing LHR (and other euro hubs). So fundamentally BA flies where UK business links are strong. The UK is (was!) strong in financial services, pharma, professional services and specialist engineering, but not much else. So lets have some suggestions for new routes that would be MORE profitable than their US network!
Yellowtail From Belize, joined Jun 2005, 2314 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2590 times:
Quoting Mutu (Reply 12): So lets have some suggestions for new routes that would be MORE profitable than their US network!
LGW-BZE-PTY......good mix of Y,J,F on all segments. Stellar cargo on all segments (in fact, there would be more cargo than space on LGW-BZE and BZE-LG), UK MoD support etc etc....
Pellegrine From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1218 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
I guess the "ENHANCED Seating Policy" scheme didn't keep them in the black afterall!
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Why doesn't BA just take out some Club World and add coach seats, it hasn't done that. So many other airline have done this, BA is too Premuim.
For this to be beneficial, one would have to assume BA would be selling WT seats (many already heavily discounted) at a worthwhile price to offset the loss of J seats. On many routes that would be assuming too much.
Non-Farm Payroll = time to gain or lose 100+ pips on my P/L ehh...
AirNz From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
Quoting Mutu (Reply 12): How about a proper comparison before accusing BA of being premium heavy.
Why do you need/want a comparison of anything? The subject under discussion is regarding BA, and has nothing whatever to do with AF, LH or any other airline. Likewise, any other airline's seat configurations have nothing to do with BA., and the route they chose to take. I don't see the need to be comparing anything to simply find a 'reason' for diluting facts you find unpalatable.
Quoting Mutu (Reply 12): So fundamentally BA flies where UK business links are strong.
Fundamentally, BA do nothing of the sort. They fly whatever routes they see as premium, and that was their mistake. UK business links do not necessarily mean high premium traffic which is what they solely went after.
Sketty222 From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14): I guess the "ENHANCED Seating Policy" scheme didn't keep them in the black afterall!
Although you have added a smiley, I think that the seating thing is a longer term project rather than a quick fix
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Why doesn't BA just take out some Club World and add coach seats, it hasn't done that. So many other airline have done this, BA is too Premuim
TBH, its not all about how many Y seats you have its all about the yield. BA could reduce the seats in J to 16 and add extra Y seats, but what would be the point if the extra seats didnt bring in extra yield?
Thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 950 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2255 times:
Quoting Mutu (Reply 12): What are the actual numbers for AF, LH etc? How about a proper comparison before accusing BA of being premium heavy.
AF
B744 - 40J or 17J, depending on the config, no first class in either.
B772 - 49J
B77W - 36J or 57J, depending on config
A343 - 30J or 36J, depending on config, no First class in either.
A332 - 40J, no first class.
LH
B744 - 80J
A333 - 48J
A343 - 44J or 48J, depending on config.
A346 - 60J or 66J
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2094 times:
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 16): TBH, its not all about how many Y seats you have its all about the yield. BA could reduce the seats in J to 16 and add extra Y seats, but what would be the point if the extra seats didnt bring in extra yield?
It's equally all about Y seats, in addition to Y+, J or F and this is something that so many armchair experts on a.net can't seem to grasp in their constant 'expertise' on alleged premium travel. There are extensive formula's involved and what plays a big role is volume. Irrespective of this constant 'expertise', such people here can't seem to 'explain' why all premium class configuration doesn't work (except rare routes like SQ's ULH). There is far too much of this "airline revenue is solely dependent on premium revenue", and which is absolute cobblers.
Equally, don't get carried away and ignore that premium travel is often heavily discounted, but such then upsets a few ego's and sensitivities here.
TN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 378 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2046 times:
Quoting Spkyflyer (Reply 17): think the QF-BA proposed tie-up wasnt such a bad idea
In what context do you make this statement. IMHO QF quite rightly gave it a miss because of the pojected lossess, the debt burden, and the Pension liabilities, and the "control" thing.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7586 posts, RR: 58 Reply 23, posted (1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 719 times:
Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 18): AF
B744 - 40J or 17J, depending on the config, no first class in either.
B772 - 49J
B77W - 36J or 57J, depending on config
A343 - 30J or 36J, depending on config, no First class in either.
A332 - 40J, no first class.
LH
B744 - 80J
A333 - 48J
A343 - 44J or 48J, depending on config.
A346 - 60J or 66J
As compared to AF we could conclude that BA is clearly premium heavy and less so as compared to LH. If you compare to other airlines such as KLM, IB, and AZ, which have a configuration even less premium than AF and do not offer F, then BA would seem extremely premium.
BA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 38 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 402 times:
Just out of interest do BA still have some internal ground staff in the UK regions as the women that checked me in a few weeks back at NCL was in a full BA uniform? or are these just Swissport staff in BA uniforms?
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it's 14J (for Carribean/indian ocean leisure destinations) or 67J for "mainline" long-haul routes
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