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UA And CO  
User currently offlineJolau1701 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8047 times:

I keep wondering how come even after only a week and a half after CO officially joined Star Alliance, (And even before when CO was still in Skyteam) that CO was going to merge with UA?

They're only in the same marketing alliance, not merging. Otherwise US and UA would have merged by now.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2512 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7890 times:

I have no idea what the answer to your question is. Rather i have another question about these 2 airlines.

As well all know, UA and CO started domestic codesharing yesterday.Now, I heard that no 2 US airlines can revenue share. If this is true, than what is the point of UA and CO codesharing?

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7510 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 1):
no 2 US airlines can revenue share. If this is true, than what is the point of UA and CO codesharing?

Because UA and CO will pick up additional connecting passengers on each other's flights to/from destinations they don't serve online since a codeshare connection showing the same carrier code on both flights has higher display priority in reservations systems than an interline connection.


User currently offlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 628 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Well US and UA did talk seriously about merging in 2008, didn't they?

User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2512 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7257 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Because UA and CO will pick up additional connecting passengers on each other's flights to/from destinations they don't serve online since a codeshare connection showing the same carrier code on both flights has higher display priority in reservations systems than an interline connection.

Granted, but on a domestic level, both these airlines and their regional feeders have extensive domestic coverage across the States. So the routes that one serves and the other doesn't are minimal, thus the additional passengers gained are minimal.

All this to say, what is the point of codesharing on a domestic level, especially with no revenue sharing. Intl codesharing i understand, because CO and UA serve markets the other doesnt. i.e CO serves TLV and UA doesnt. UA serves DME and CO doesnt.
Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2009-11-06 21:12:10 by thenoflyzone]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7123 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
Granted, but on a domestic level, both these airlines and their regional feeders have extensive domestic coverage across the States. So the routes that one serves and the other doesn't are minimal, thus the additional passengers gained are minimal.

I would disagree, because while you are right overall, there are many cases where there isn't explicit overlap. For instance, from CMH-DCA, US flies this n/s using CRJs. UA does not fly the route; you have to either connect via ORD or go out to IAD and hop an ERJ to CMH. Likewise, CO flies to EWR out of CMH, but neither US or UA do, so you would have to codeshare there. I realize that DCA and IAD are in the same market, but they are far enough apart that that can make a difference, and if someone likes the convenience of DCA (say they have a meeting right in downtown DC, as opposed to the VA suburbs), that could win them over. So I think there is plenty of room for alliance carriers to mutually benefit from codesharing domestically. They can compete on price as well, so say NYC-LAX, UA's PS out of JFK and CO out of EWR can compete on price and location (since some prefer one over the other) and hopefully snag a flier who otherwise might hop the AA JFK-LAX flight, for instance. I'm not saying that all airlines in alliances think altruistically, but just that I'm sure they'd rather you book a codeshare on an alliance partner so they at least get something rather than you fly somebody else outside the alliance.


User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6733 times:

they cant revenue share domestically, but as part of their partnership with LH and AC (I think), They WILL revenue share over the north atlantic. it's part of their joint venture, that the DOT approved earlier this year. it's similar to the already-existing revenue share relationship between UA and LH - just now CO (and i'm pretty sure AC) will join the party.... and it's similar to what DL/NW/AF/KL are doing over the Atlantic.

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 1):

I have no idea what the answer to your question is. Rather i have another question about these 2 airlines.

As well all know, UA and CO started domestic codesharing yesterday.Now, I heard that no 2 US airlines can revenue share. If this is true, than what is the point of UA and CO codesharing?

Thenoflyzone



User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6679 times:

A merge with Continental and United Airlines would be a very hard thing for me to digest. I can't see what CO would want with UA. Since CO got out of bankruptcy and the end of Frank Lorenzo, they have been a force to be reckoned with.

CO has benefited from an agreement with Boeing, solid employee moral and JD powers awards year after year. They have a solid business structure with slow but steady growth in the international market.

The most disheartening aspect of UA is their inability to come to key agreements with management and employees. This can spell disaster for an airline.

CO and AA is where it's at. Continental would benefit from AA's vast South American structure, and both have like aircraft. Together they would become an airline worthy of the old school US airlines.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5462 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6585 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 7):
I can't see what CO would want with UA.

You have to ask yourself: do CO and UA, in their present alliance, have enough marketing power to compete successfully with much larger DL or not?

If they do, then a merger isn't vital - at least for competitive reasons. If they don't, then they will feel forced to merge.

You could argue that success is possible for a smaller airline (Alaska? Hawaiian?), but the CO and UA managements probably wouldn't agree.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineEastern747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6067 times:

I don't know how anyone else feels, but CO would be stupid to take on UA and all it's baggage.(pun not intended). Lousy moral, aging fleet, poor customer service etc. etc. etc.UA will never be what a great carrier it used to be. You can't wave a magic wond and turn back the clock. CO would be taking on an albatros.

User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5973 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 7):
I can't see what CO would want with UA. Since CO got out of bankruptcy and the end of Frank Lorenzo, they have been a force to be reckoned with.

 bigthumbsup  , I think CO could only benefit from UA's vast asian network and its brand name worldwide recognition. But on UA's behalf, it seems like they are trying hard to redo the whole company, new seats, uniforms and whatever else, so they are trying.


User currently offlineHuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5936 times:



Quoting Eastern747 (Reply 9):
UA will never be what a great carrier it used to be. You can't wave a magic wond and turn back the clock. CO would be taking on an albatros.

I am pretty sure there was one time when CO wasn't exactly in the good books of the American travelling public either, but look how far it has gone. Things may falter over time, but that doesn't negate all opportunity for a revival.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineTu154 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 376 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5683 times:



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 11):


Quoting Eastern747 (Reply 9):
UA will never be what a great carrier it used to be. You can't wave a magic wond and turn back the clock. CO would be taking on an albatros.

I am pretty sure there was one time when CO wasn't exactly in the good books of the American travelling public either, but look how far it has gone. Things may falter over time, but that doesn't negate all opportunity for a revival.

Exactly. I remember when CO was the absolute worst airline, with an abysmal reputation.
Look at them now. Time and new management did wonders for CO.



FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5569 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 10):
it seems like they are trying hard to redo the whole company, new seats, uniforms and whatever else, so they are trying.



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 11):
I am pretty sure there was one time when CO wasn't exactly in the good books of the American travelling public either

I agree, but there is something different about this scenario, something I can't quite put my finger on. Continental, although in bad shape in the 80's and 90's still had a moral about it. Frank Lozenzo vs empoyees. The employees knew what a good airline could be, Frank did everything in his power to drag them to their knees.

When he was finally stripped of power, it gave employees a new lease on life. Although I was young, I vividly remember the change. My father was flying DC9's at the time, four and five legs a day with a 30% pay cut.

When they emerged from bankruptcy, not only did they begin getting new aircraft, but a change was made throughout and that included the way employees were treated.

“We believe that employees should always be treated with dignity and respect, especially when we are forced to make these tough decisions,” Gordon Bethune

This was the philosophy of the new CO. It's been the same ever since.

UA's problems lie within their employees as much as their management. They clash heads and refuse to give into eachother. Sometimes I think they would rather go bust than give the smallest concession for the greater good of the company.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4952 times:



Quoting Eastern747 (Reply 9):
I don't know how anyone else feels, but CO would be stupid to take on UA and all it's baggage.(pun not intended). Lousy moral, aging fleet, poor customer service etc. etc. etc.UA will never be what a great carrier it used to be. You can't wave a magic wond and turn back the clock. CO would be taking on an albatros.

Nonsense..it's been done before..an airline called ......Continental............


User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4744 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 13):
When they emerged from bankruptcy, not only did they begin getting new aircraft, but a change was made throughout and that included the way employees were treated.

"We believe that employees should always be treated with dignity and respect, especially when we are forced to make these tough decisions," Gordon Bethune

This was the philosophy of the new CO. It's been the same ever since.

There has been a change since Bethune left; I've heard employees describe Continental - under Kellner's management - as in a race from "First to Worst," an obvious play on Bethune's book title.

I've already heard CO's next CEO Jeff Smisek described as "Frank Lorenzo in a better suit."

First heard from a CO flight attendant, but at other times, too is, "Continental: knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing." Bethune was certainly cost conscious but he also understood value, he was famous for saying, "You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it." So true.

It seems that bean-counters can't see the forest for the beans.

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 14):
Nonsense..it's been done before..an airline called ......Continental............

Yes, I hope that the pendulum at Continental will swing back in the other - better - direction soon.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4630 times:



Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 15):
Yes, I hope that the pendulum at Continental will swing back in the other - better - direction soon.

I think it is, hopefully with this alliance it will give them more code-sharing oppurtunities, they are getting new seats on the 757's,777's and I guess eventually some of the 767's and getting rid of the old 733's and is putting DIRECTV on all of 737's. Kind of a facelift, not that they really needed it, but it will make there product offering even more competitive.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11704 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

Putting aside the seemingly-insurmountable challenges that a merger would bring, including labor, fleets, etc., if one were to look at a Continental-United integration from a purely route perspective, my God would that be an incredible powerhouse of a network.

Some of the most strategically valuable hubs - in some of the largest cities, largest economies, and best locations, in America - including New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston, San Francisco, Washington and Denver. The best route network to Asia of any U.S. airline, an excellent network to Latin America via Continental/Houston, and an excellent and well-balanced Europe system keyed to two dynamic hubs in New York and Washington.

That network would put every single other U.S. airline's to shame.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9506 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4599 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
All this to say, what is the point of codesharing on a domestic level, especially with no revenue sharing. Intl codesharing i understand, because CO and UA serve markets the other doesnt. i.e CO serves TLV and UA doesnt. UA serves DME and CO doesnt.
Thenoflyzone

Try getting on a UA flight to ANC,PBI,RSW,FLL ect. CO flys to citys UA doesn't and i bet US has the same(intr-Cal market comes to mind). Its the same reason why UA codeshares with US, DL with AS,NW(pre merger) most the US airlines do it.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4496 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 16):
think it is, hopefully with this alliance it will give them more code-sharing oppurtunities, they are getting new seats on the 757's,777's and I guess eventually some of the 767's and getting rid of the old 733's and is putting DIRECTV on all of 737's. Kind of a facelift, not that they really needed it, but it will make there product offering even more competitive.

It's true there's an investment in the aircraft and facilities, but the pendulum I was referring to was the morale of the employee groups.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4474 times:



Quoting Jolau1701 (Thread starter):
It's true there's an investment in the aircraft and facilities, but the pendulum I was referring to was the morale of the employee groups.

Im sorry, It seems like there morale is pretty strong and they love Larry Kellner, but who knows what will come with Jeff never heard of the guy even if he was still high up in CO's management.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9506 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4407 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):

That is why i wanted Delta to merge with UA. The Network of UA and CO or DL/UA(and the reason why I liked DL/UA a little more was due to the ATL hub, UA/CO still wouldn't have a great SE hub(BUT IAH will work for them).
Network wise UA/CO or UA/DL might have been/will be a monster. DL's best bet now is UA goes into Chap 7 and they try to out bid CO for assests. I'm sure AA would also like this too. (Can you just think of the bidding war over ORD and SFO?)



yep.
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2911 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4398 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Are these discussions talk about the benefit to all classes of travel? I divide my 250,000 paid business miles a year between CO and UA and I have to say (with UA's F&C upgrades) I find both airlines quite fantastic on all levels, with CO having and edge on Food.
From a customer perspective and a *A slave, this is the best it gets.
The only thing I can't get my head around is that One Pass isn't as good as Mileage Plus and that there is nothing from CO that comes close to Global Services.
Question: If I fly from EWR to FRA do I get double miles, plus fare bonus on CO as I do on LH? Anyone know?



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently onlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 773 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4398 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 20):
Im sorry, It seems like there morale is pretty strong and they love Larry Kellner, but who knows what will come with Jeff never heard of the guy even if he was still high up in CO's management.

I wouldn't say anyone loves Larry Kellner. He is not Gordon Bethune. He is a bean counter that is more intersted in the numbers on the spreadsheets than walking around and taking a look at the operation and seeing how it is really going. Smisek is more of the same. While DAL, UAL, AA, and now WN are adding WiFi we will proceed with DirecTV because it costs us no beans to install. Every day another topping gets removed from the pizza that Gordon baked and the crust gets a little staler.


User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4286 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 20):
Im sorry, It seems like there morale is pretty strong and they love Larry Kellner, but who knows what will come with Jeff never heard of the guy even if he was still high up in CO's management.

From what I've seen and heard, there's a huge gap between the P.R. "spin" and the reality.

But I have hope that it can be turned around. I think that the "ingredients" of a solid operation are still there.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
25 Post contains images CODC10 : Employees know Kellner is a good guy and genuinely gives a damn, but he has not been able to shake the derisive 'bean counter' sobriquet. Morale is a
26 Iaherj : His "pedigree" is not the problem for labor. I think everyone wants the smartest/brightest running the airline. What scares the heck out of me is the
27 Mcdu : Are you familiar with the CAL lite experiment and some of the history of CAL? Your statement doesn't reflect the reality of what is actually occurrin
28 FlyHossD : It's not the pedigree that concerns the employees that I know. Yes, this part of what concerns me. Are free meals soon to be a thing of the past? I'v
29 DualQual : This is what scares the employees. I really don't care where a CEO comes from as long as they are interested in promoting the culture and continuing
30 United787 : I am flying UA next month in an E170 from ORD to RSW.
31 MasseyBrown : Kellner gave what was almost the equivalent of Kaiser Wilhelm's "Hun" speech once. Ominously: "They call us bean counters; let us BE bean counters!"
32 DualQual : Technically you aren't flying UA from ORD to RSW if it is an E170
33 Junction : I'm not necessarily doubting this, but can you give some examples?
34 SlimShady : I wish all this merge talk and speculation would simply go away. They dont need to "merge". UA will keep hemmoraging money and doing the same thing th
35 DualQual : He's already come out and said he has no "sacred cows" vis a vis free meals at mealtime, baggage fees, etc. He has also stated that a la carte pricin
36 FlyHossD : Reportedly, Smisek told employees at a recent meeting in Houston that he wasn't committed to guarenteeing their pension. I don't know about you, but
37 ThePinnacleKid : Yes... so true... that would be why the employee cafeteria at IAH has the real name: "Gordon's Galley" and the nickname: "Larry's Concessions"..... I
38 Ual777 : When does the UA Chap. 11 talk ever end??!? I have been hearing this same crap since 2003 here! UA is outperforming Wallstreet's expectations and is
39 Nws2002 : +1 I wouldn't mind his intro so much, if I didn't have to stand in the aisle smiling while he rambles on and on.
40 Post contains links OP3000 : Slightly off topic, here's a pretty good article as to how/why UA (just like most other legacies) have gone wrong on the customer side. Hopefully CO d
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