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New Zealand Aviation Thread #65  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11292 times:
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Welcome to thread #65. In #64 New Zealand Aviation Thread #64 (by 777ER Oct 16 2009 in Civil Aviation) we learnt and discussed:

- NZ removing child fares from its cheapest domestic fares
- SA)">ZK-FREs EOL check updates
- NZ confirm seat beds for economy pax
- NZ and SA star code-sharing
- Hawkes Bay runway extension cleared for take off
- Jetstar told to pay CAA levies
- DJ expand SYD services from WLG and AKL over the summer period
- A320s will replace NZ domestic jet fleet
- Pacific Blue's services operated by PBoz and PBnz

Lets get thread #65 going

210 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11291 times:
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Kiwi Bank have now launched their new NZ airpoints credit cards called 'Gofly'. Interesting to see that every Thursday 'Gofly' card holders get special grabaseat deals. Last Thursday oneway BNE fares were between $50 - $80

http://www.kiwibank.co.nz/personal-banking/credit-cards/gofly/


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11276 times:

On the last thread I wrote that the 77L would have fitted Air NZ's network better than the 77E, which led to responses along the lines of:

- "but Air NZ doesn't need to take the risk of ULH" or
-"but the 789 was always due to replace the 77E".

Two points here.

Firstly, even without ULH, the 77L has better operating economics on any flight above 8.5 hours - which means every single long-haul existing Air NZ flight.

Secondly, it's increasingly doubtful that any 789 aircraft will be delivered before 2014-15.

For goodness sake, the airline sends 744s to Vancouver much of the time because the 77E can't get there with a viable load.

It's not about Air NZ blazing a ULH trail. It's about the most efficient aircraft for the mission, and the 77E is a sorry substitute for the 77L in Air NZ's network.


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11257 times:

Koruman - can you provide some facts and figures about the 77E vs. the 77L, taking into account the $ cost of 'abusing' the 77L on the daily Tasman runs, the $ saving by operating it on NZ's specific routes given our passenger and cargo loadings, and the lincreased lease/purchase costs of the 77L - taking into account the ORIGINAL 787 delivery dates specified by Boeing? If the 787 had arrived on time, how quickly would the increased cost of acquiring the 77L have been absorbed by the savings on NZ's longhaul routes?

Thanks.



-
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11174 times:



Quoting TG992 (Reply 3):
can you provide some facts and figures about the 77E vs. the 77L

I'm an enthusiast, not a professional, but I'll try to address your points......

Quoting TG992 (Reply 3):
taking into account the $ cost of 'abusing' the 77L on the daily Tasman runs, the $ saving by operating it on NZ's specific routes given our passenger and cargo loadings, and the lincreased lease/purchase costs of the 77L -

Firstly, why do we need to factor the Tasman runs in? It was always understood that until the 789s arrived that there would be 763, 320 and either 744 (or 77W) aircraft to undertake those functions. At worst, the airline could have had four 77E aircraft to cover some Tasman flying as well as longer haul, and 4 77L aircraft dedicated to sectors over 10 hours.

But even there, we keep being told that while the passenger yields on the China routes are junk level, the flights are kept viable by freight. Well, the 77L would be much more efficient for that than the 77E.

Quoting TG992 (Reply 3):
taking into account the ORIGINAL 787 delivery dates specified by Boeing?

Sorry, but what's the original date got to do with anything? The 789, like any new aircraft, was always a risk in terms of delivery date, not least because the 788 (which I still maintain is a better fit for Air NZ) was always due for much earlier delivery.

It is a common misperception that the 77L is an ultra-long haul aircraft, but that is only really when it has the three additional fuel tanks, which would never have been of interest to Air NZ. What it really is is the most efficient aircraft in service for routes of between 9 and 14 hours' length.

What's more, it would have fitted really well alongside a subfleet of 77Es.


User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11168 times:

With the 787 delivery delays, can we expect ZK-NCG to be still flying in NZ colours when she is 20 years old?

User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11160 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 2):
For goodness sake, the airline sends 744s to Vancouver much of the time because the 77E can't get there with a viable load.

Koruman , I can't believe this is the reason why the 744 is used on the YVR run. After all CO uses the type every day on JFK-HKG a sector in excess of 7000nm. So they have about 20 less seats but that is not the difference.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 2):
Koruman - can you provide some facts and figures about the 77E vs. the 77L,

A quote from Widebodyphotog pertinent to TG992's question.

Without spewing out strings of calculations and rather obscure data I will try to break it down to very simple particulars. The improvement in TSFC, propulsive efficiency, and airframe L/D more than negate the drag penalty of the relatively small increase in structural weight of 777-200LR vs 777-200ER. Those improvements allow the airplane about a 3% better fuel burn/unit payload than 777-200ER at ranges beyond 2,000nm. At the design payload and range of the 777-200ER the 777-200LR need only takeoff at 665,000lbs, only 9,000lbs above the structural MTOW of 777-200ER. The difference in TOW's is significantly less than the difference in OEW of the two aircraft. This difference in TOW weights and the increase in OEW of 777-200LR is all fuel, which is a lower at that payload range point for 777-200LR. This lower fuel requirement is due entirely to the better airframe/engine performance of 777-200LR.
Additionally, newer build GE90-110B1L and -115B1 engines will have a .8% improvement in SFC over previously delivered engines. This combined with new wing vortex generators should give a total of 1.3% improvement in payload range performance when first implemented on 775,000lb MTOW versions of 777-300ER and subsequently 777-200LR.

Here is an annotated P/R chart showing some details in capabilities:

http://theaviationspecialist.com/777-200lr_er_super_pr_chart.gif

Quoting TG992 (Reply 3):
taking into account the $ cost of 'abusing' the 77L on the daily Tasman runs, the $ saving by operating it on NZ's specific routes given our passenger and cargo loadings, and the lincreased lease/purchase costs of the 77L -

When NZ made the decision to go with the 772 the full capabilities of the 77L were not known , also the price per frame at that time was allegedly many million dollars more. Certainly the trans-Tasman runs are too short for the 77L but the TT utilization of the type
is about .786 hrs /day out of 116.56hrs /day for the fleet. Insignificant in my view.
Certainly the 77L would permit higher cargo loadings assuming space / density parameters.
The payload/ range chart referenced above suggests an additional 31K pounds for the 77L upto about 5800nm and more for sectors beyond that.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11158 times:

Regarding WLG-CBR - what "weekend away" and "corporate" traffic? There are no corporates in Wellington anymore - the financial sector moved to Auckland (branch offices of Sydney and Melbourne) a while back now and most corporate HQs are there - why would corporates want to go to Canberra anyway?

If, as claimed, a fair bit of "government" travel is undertaken by consultants, are there really 100 or so, three times a week heading in each direction? I suspect, not, especially now with serious restraints on travel allowances. And given the Qantas stronghold on QF-side traffic (contracts) and an awful lot of NZ Ministries, Departments and Agencies, any connection would have to be undertaken by Qantas, diluting their existing SYD and MEL service to WLG = unlikely.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11134 times:
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Virgin Blue is in the final stages of ordering upto 70 aircraft including B739ERs!

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=18418


User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3077 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11129 times:

There's a discussion here Aeroplan/Star Alliance Points Bookings (by Kaiarahi Nov 7 2009 in Aviation Polls) regarding a dubious AC / Aeroplan practice that may be of interest to any NZ Airpoints members thinking of booking a *Alliance reward that involves travel on AC.


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25712 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11112 times:
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Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 7):
Regarding WLG-CBR - what "weekend away" and "corporate" traffic?

I'd be a week-end away. Or, I'd combine a trip to Canberra with a visit to somewhere else in Oz that isn't necessarily Sydney or Melbourne.

I haven't been to Canberra for ten years, but I'm Australian (resident here) and I've always enjoyed the capital city. There's plenty there that interests me for a few days, and I get bored with beaches.

If there were direct flights, I'd probably go out of my way to use them.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10999 times:

I spent 25 years living in Canberra and every time we asked airlines about international services we were always, told, nah, market too small. Canberra is so close to Sydney that everyone, including NZ passengers flies through there, with the added time of changing terminals.

IF IF IF Qantas and AirNZ had been allowed to do their joint service agreement, Canberra NZ services were on their list of things to do. IF IF IF Australia NZ became one domestic market, and IF IF IF AirNZ or Qantas became interested in 100 seater jets, like Embraer 190s, then Canberra services from Wellington and Auckland might be a possibility. There are NZ agencies who want to send people to meet Australian Government Departments - direct flights could save those people about 5 hours in each direction. Are there enough of those poeple, well I dunno.

Leisure? Canberra does have people who like to travel, though they seem to take NZ for granted - it is always there. I do not think NZ Tourism has ever done a promo in Canberra, as in visited shopping centres. Certainly, Canberra Travel Agents think NZ is a better destination than Tasmania (sorry Tasmania). As a place to visit, I think people enjoy Canberra when they get there. A lot of people in NZ are not sure what they are supposed to see in Canberra, a whole lot of big buildings. Canberra does not really have its own beach, but Canberra people drive down to Batemans Bay which is two hours away, down the terrible Clyde Mountain. That is Canberra on Sea.

I can say that a person from South Australian Tourism came to Canberra and thought that Canberra's coffee shops were better than Adelaide's. The Floriade in September is the best time of year to visit Canberra. May to September is chilly. January is boiling.


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10976 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
The improvement in TSFC, propulsive efficiency, and airframe L/D more than negate the drag penalty of the relatively small increase in structural weight of 777-200LR vs 777-200ER. Those improvements allow the airplane about a 3% better fuel burn/unit payload than 777-200ER at ranges beyond 2,000nm.

Looking at the graph Sunrise Valley has provided, it would appear that for all of Air NZ's long-haul routes apart from AKL-HNL (which is operated by a 763 anyway) the 777-200LR would be roughly 6% more fuel-efficient than the existing 777-200ER.

Whenever I point that out people say "the 77L is for ultra long-haul, so the more expensive fuel gets the less efficient it is". Quite the opposite: a 6% fuel advantage on existing Air NZ routes becomes more desirable the more expensive fuel gets.

Let's be clear about this: a 77L is basically a 77E attached to a 77W's wings and engines. The interior can and would be identical to the existing 77E interior.

We know that the 77E fleet has all been sold and leased back, that the new 77W fleet with new hard product arrives in around a year and that Boeing owes Air NZ compensation for 789 delays.

I would be looking to use that compensation to get the 77E fleet replaced by 10 year leases for 77L aircraft with the new 77W interior product, for delivery at the same time as the 77W in 2011.

That would ensure that Air NZ had the most fuel-efficient fleet available for its existing long-haul operations, both in the likely period before 789 delivery (which could be as late as 2015) and after. That 2011-15 period is a long time in aviation, equivalent to the service life of the reconfigured 744 fleet. Can Air NZ really afford to be operating 77E aircraft on 77L-optimised routes? Isn't that a bit like trying to operate an A340-600 on a 777-300ER route?

Air NZ has just gone with Airbus for its narrowbody fleet, and Boeing probably harbours fears that when the 789 inevitably slips further that Air NZ will replace the order with A350s, not least because it does Hawaiian's long-haul maintenance and it has chosen the A350.

Now might be a great time to use all the leverage available to get Boeing to trade in the 77E fleet for more efficient 77L aircraft.


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10956 times:

By the way, the other thing which noone seems to be picking up on is this.......

I suspect that domestic-configured A320s are going to be used to fly all-economy services from AKL/CHC/WLG to destinations like the Gold Coast, on the narrow-body services to BNE and on services from SYD to Rotorua and Dunedin.

I also strongly doubt the 171 seat configuration postulated: surely the only difference from the current fleet will be the loss of 8 Business Class seats and their replacement with 18 Economy Class seats, for a new all-Economy seat count of 156 seats.

I think that a 156 seat aircraft is just fine as the smallest jet in the fleet. Routes which can't sustain a 156 seater really can be operated by a turboprop or abandoned as far as I can see.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10956 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 12):
Now might be a great time to use all the leverage available to get Boeing to trade in the 77E fleet for more efficient 77L aircraft.

plus get the 777 series long haul fleet with a common engine type. Sell off the power-by-the-hour deal with R-R on the 77E along with the aircraft. I am sure it is quite attractive given the time period in which it was negotiated.


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10938 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 12):
Now might be a great time to use all the leverage available to get Boeing to trade in the 77E fleet for more efficient 77L aircraft.



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 14):
plus get the 777 series long haul fleet with a common engine type. Sell off the power-by-the-hour deal with R-R on the 77E along with the aircraft

More and more information is coming to light about what V Australia has ordered: essentially 6 x 777-200LR to fly SYD-JFK and BNE-LAX, with existing 777-300ERs to fly SYD-LAX and MEL-LAX.

This means that Air New Zealand's 777-300ER order is now looking like a very poor decision, given that the feed from BNE and MEL into Trans-Pacific services is now severely endangered. (I was horrified on Wednesday to board NZ135 AKL-BNE and find myself on a 763, when I'd been planning to sleep on a 744 or 77E. If I'd known that there wasn't going to be Business Premier I'd just have flown on an A320 into my local airport, OOL).

(By the way, this is not unusual. In summer the Trans-Pacific flights into AKL land around 330 am Australian time, and the only way to avoid jetlag is to sleep around four hours on the HNL/SFO/LAX/YVR sector, then for another three hours on the daylight AKL-Australia sector, which equates to around 530-830 am Australian time. I've been picking Air NZ for years because it allows this, but I was a wreck at work this Wednesday after the 763-operated Tasman sector, and it made me seriously wonder whether the day is coming where I have to fly V Australia or - less likely - Qantas).

The downguaging of NZ135 several days per week shows that V Australia is already eating away at Air NZ's Australian feed into long-haul.

As I see it, Air NZ therefore has only three options with regards to Trans-Pacific services, as follows:

1. Buy V Australia +/- Virgin Blue.
2. Operate small (77L) aircraft itself non-stop between MEL/BNE-LAX/SFO.
3. Do nothing and die, as the 30% of Trans-Pacific high-yielding Business Premier and Premium Economy passengers originating or terminating in MEL and BNE switch to V Australia.

Why do I suspect that Air New Zealand is going to opt for Option 3?


User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10905 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 2):
On the last thread I wrote that the 77L would have fitted Air NZ's network better than the 77E, which led to responses along the lines of:

- "but Air NZ doesn't need to take the risk of ULH" or
-"but the 789 was always due to replace the 77E".

Two points here.

I guess we have to remember, 2004 - 763's coming off contract. There was need for a second 747 to LHR (taking away the 744 for LAX and SFO). NZ needed to replace the 763 with North American range and the 77E could do it likewise so could the yet to certified LR.

They could do 1 or 3 things

1. Renew the 763 leases and not fly second daily to the UK.
2. Wait for the LR and run the risk of delays such as the 789 and have 763's coming off lease.
3. Get the 772 on short term lease commit to the 789 programe but have an adequate aircraft capable of doing the job if there are delays and send the 744's to the UK or send a 77E to the UK and keep some on the North America routes.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!



-
User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10851 times:

I have been going through the search function, and I cannot find the thread, but I know that Emirates have expressed disappointment with the 777-200LR in their operation. They are encouraging Boeing to give them a substantially improved 777-300ERX, which might have improvements of up to 15% compared with current 777-300ERs. So the improvements that Koruman was shown on the back of a napkin, do not seem to be obvious to Emirates, who actually operate the type. We know that Delta got into the type because they got a huge discount, and presumably that is what has got V Australia's attention.

The 77L is a very slow selling model for Boeing. It has failed to interest a lot of airlines.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5829 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10837 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):
More and more information is coming to light about what V Australia has ordered: essentially 6 x 777-200LR to fly SYD-JFK and BNE-LAX, with existing 777-300ERs to fly SYD-LAX and MEL-LAX.

This seems very, very unlikely given the DJ Statement in: Virgin Australia To Order Upto 70 Boeing Aircraft (by Aviationbuff Nov 7 2009 in Civil Aviation) reply30

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25712 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10831 times:
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I must be a bit dim, because I have seen no statement from Virgin saying that they have ordered anything.

The only "official" statement from them - that I have seen - is here:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/

"But truthfully we ain’t close to new aircraft order for V. Right now we have our hands full preparing for our fourth V Australia 777-300ER and the launch of services to Phuket, Fiji and Melbourne-Los Angeles operations this month and next."

Note that they specifically say they aren't close to a new order for V. That leaves the door open to orders for Virgin/Pacific Blue, I guess.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10794 times:
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Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
I suspect that domestic-configured A320s are going to be used to fly all-economy services from AKL/CHC/WLG to destinations like the Gold Coast, on the narrow-body services to BNE and on services from SYD to Rotorua and Dunedin.

NZs current B733 fleet is 15, NZs current A320 fleet is 12. Thats a fleet drop of 3 aircraft once all the B733s are gone if NZ ONLY sticks with the A320 for domestic and doesn't order any A319s for smaller capicity routes. How can NZ also operate all economy services on the International routes you've said with a fleet of 12 A320s when the 15x B733s are gone?

Quoting Koruman (Reply 13):
I also strongly doubt the 171 seat configuration postulated: surely the only difference from the current fleet will be the loss of 8 Business Class seats and their replacement with 18 Economy Class seats, for a new all-Economy seat count of 156 seats.

Yes its easy to get the 171 seat count. If JQ can do it, then NZ can do it also

Quoting Koruman (Reply 15):

1. Buy V Australia +/- Virgin Blue.
2. Operate small (77L) aircraft itself non-stop between MEL/BNE-LAX/SFO.
3. Do nothing and die, as the 30% of Trans-Pacific high-yielding Business Premier and Premium Economy passengers originating or terminating in MEL and BNE switch to V Australia.

Why do I have a feeling that NZ is doing/thinking of something different to combat this new problem?


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10775 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):

An interesting quote from that article is this

For what it’s worth some of the team are also visiting Embraer so we wait with baited breath to read about what we’re ordering there this week and where we are going to fly them.

Please some Ejets for Pacific Blue!


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10774 times:

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 17):
Emirates have expressed disappointment with the 777-200LR in their operation. They are encouraging Boeing to give them a substantially improved 777-300ERX, which might have improvements of up to 15% compared with current 777-300ERs

This is more a reflection of the Emirates business model than of the relative qualities of the 77E and 77L.

Emirates is in the business of moving large volumes of traffic, with the bulk of its routes being at the medium end of long-haul. It would obviously prefer a long range 350 seater to a 280 seater, which explains what you have written.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 17):
The 77L is a very slow selling model for Boeing. It has failed to interest a lot of airlines.

That is because most airlines' long-haul operations are predominantly Trans-Atlantic (6-9 hours) or Europe-Asia (7-12 hours flying).

Those operations correspond to Boeing's "B market" which makes the 77E and 77W a perfect pairing.

The problem is that Air New Zealand's long-haul operations are closer to Boeing's "C market", for which the notional pair is the 77L and 77W. The 77E is slightly underdone for Trans-Pacific operations, and pays a significant cost in terms of fuel economy, which is why Delta, for example, operates the 77L instead.

I'm arguing that with the 789 probably at least five to six years from delivery it would be worthwhile for Air NZ to exchange its 77Es for 77Ls now. In fact, preferably they would have both and operate long-haul from Australia.

Unfortunately, it is becoming ever clearer that Air New Zealand management's strategy of fleet, volume and frequency reductions is not just its response to NZ's recession but also to competition in the Australian long-haul marketplace. Air New Zealand really had 2009 as its window of opportunity to protect its higher-yielding Australian market, either by buying V Australia or by competing out of Brisbane and Melbourne.

But they have instead clearly decided that their only response will be to try to shore up their NZ market share while allowing their Australian passengers to junp ship, and it's happening. The downguaging of NZ135/136 tells the whole story: the Queensland economy and outbound Queensland passenger numbers are growing but Air NZ is going backwards.

If you remember the "Jungle Book" movie, Air NZ's current strategy is to be King Louie, trying to hold up the last broken bit of the roof while the whole building crumbles around him. It's a strategy alright, but it's one which can only end in heartache.

I'm not going to mince words about where Air New Zealand stands without its Australian feed. It will become PLUNA, servicing a domestic market of 4 million people in a poor developed country with a fleet of 7 Regional Jets. Take away long-haul Australian feed and Air New Zealand becomes an airline unable to afford its 763s, let alone 777 or 787 aircraft, and which will have to depend upon codesharing on services to the USA by bigger carriers.

I really think that that is Air NZ's choice today. Salvage the ability to remain an international carrier by retaining (or growing) its long-haul Australian market, or concentrate on the New Zealand market and abandon international operations.

[Edited 2009-11-07 21:02:53]

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10753 times:



Quoting 777ER (Reply 20):
Yes its easy to get the 171 seat count. If JQ can do it, then NZ can do it also

Surely NZ want to send a message of "luxury" over JQ when they get their A320s. JQ have IIRC a seat pitch of 31" and if they can fit 171 seats in, NZ certainly can. However I'm under the impression that they'll keep Space+ meaning that some seats will have around about 35", cutting the capacity down by a little.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10702 times:
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Quoting NZ107 (Reply 23):

Yes NZ are keeping space+ on the domestic A320s so the total seat count will be around 160, but I was only saying that if NZ really do want 171 seats then its real easy to do it.


25 Post contains links and images HLZCPH : I was at AKL today (8/11) and saw a Czech Airlines machine, an A320 I think, coming into land. Anyone know why it would be here? It's a long way from
26 Post contains links and images QF175 : HLZCPH, the OK A320 is operating on behalf of Air Calin while their sole A320 has maintenance work carried out. Registration is OK-GEB. View Large Vi
27 Aerokiwi : Everyone says that when they're asked, until... ...crunch! The market isn't there and the airlines know it. They would be cannibalising existing serv
28 Cchan : In the 3 options above, option 1 involves a large capital investment and is very risky. Option 2 also involves a large capital investment but less ri
29 Alangirvan : Well Qantas and AirNZ could have chartered the 76 seater SkyAirWorld E-170, though even that would have been a bit too big. One airline did express s
30 Koruman : I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Air New Zealand's entire operation is basically supported by the fact that it gets US$ and sterling denominated i
31 Aerokiwi : Actually I think Air Pacific gave it a go a while back - don;t think the experiment lasted long.
32 Mariner : I don't know what anyone else does. I only know what I would do. I don't know if the market is there or not, but when I go back to Oz for a holiday n
33 Cchan : Although these look like the routes which are making good money, other routes also make a valuable contribution to the business. Those which are not
34 Xiaotung : This following Norm Thompson's visit to Japan Airlines recently comes as no surprise. Rob Fyfe once said KIX and NRT would have been non stop to AKL
35 Travelhound : If I remember correctly 25% of all people flying Australia - USA, do so via a secondary airport not located in Australia. At a guess, I'd say Air NZ
36 Koruman : Quite true, but NZ's China and Japan services are heavily loss-making and marginal respectively, and are propped up by revenue from profitable parts
37 Koruman : Air New Zealand picks up the vast majority of these passengers, but they tend to be passengers from Greater Melbourne and SE Queensland whose markets
38 Cchan : The AKL-HKG market has grown after the introduction of the HKG-LHR sector. I was on HKG-AKL-HKG last month, both flights were on the days which the s
39 Koruman : I've never frowned upon HKG services in the way that I do with services to poor, undeveloped markets like PVG or PEK. Having said that, you'd expect
40 Cchan : I have not been on these services before. A friend who went on PVG-AKL reported that the plane was filled with Chinese tour groups whose members were
41 Xiaotung : A common thing with Chinese tour groups I have to say. We still have a lot to learn apparently since opening our boarders for only about what 15 year
42 777ER : Any idea how long Czech's A320 will be down here for? NZ can still fly the Tasman if it gives up long haul, its called narrowbody aircraft like the A
43 SunriseValley : This is typical Tim Clark, always pushing for something more than what is there at the time. They know exactly what they were getting with the 77L; w
44 Cchan : It is probably something to do with social values, not only with Chinese tourists. In NZ, for example, one needs to be considerate, and those who are
45 Mariner : I agree. And it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I don't think it is likely to happen, but in these changing times, who knows what the Tasma
46 Zkpilot : "Growing up"? well thats certainly one view. I think most people were opposed to this deal for the simple reason that it is not a good idea to let st
47 Mariner : Yes, it is. And a strongly held one. You will, however, get no argument from me about selling off the railways. I agree it should never have happened
48 TG992 : Or you have convinced yourself of this. Perhaps V Australia have the wrong aircraft for the route and will fail. We quickly forget that just over 2 y
49 Cchan : The other consideration here is, as Koruman suggested, what routes will VA/DJ be operating by that time. VA seems to prefer trying out routes which h
50 Alangirvan : Just wondering about the travel arrangements after the recent All Blacks vs Wallabies in Tokyo. Did both teams carry on to UK in JAL? They could both
51 Mariner : While I disagree with your conclusions (or perhaps the immediacy of them, I doubt V Oz will be in a position to buy anyone), I think your reasoning,
52 DavidByrne : I agere that there's a problem, and I also agree that it's critical that NZ looks to where it has an advantage over other carriers if it's to weather
53 Zkpilot : Well said. Good ideas. YVR-JFK just isn't feasible IMHO, for one thing it is backtracking to a certain extent, the yields would be low and unlike QF'
54 SunriseValley : Needs more than 240-minutes.Fly around at 240 adds about 350nm. Westbound might require payload penalties. In part it all depends how far the carrier
55 DavidByrne : Maybe, maybe not. It obviously is further - about 1hr additional flying time, countered by a quicker on-line transit at YVR than would be possible ch
56 SunriseValley : Well said by each of you. What I don't understand is the absolute silence by Fyfe on the VA initiatives. It is not as if NZ is bleeding like a stuck
57 Aerokiwi : 1. What control? the only control exerted has been the blocking of a cashed-up foreign investor and the opposition to developmnet of Whenuapai, argua
58 Viscount724 : Canada's capital, Ottawa, long had the same problem as CBR -- no international service (except a few shorthaul transborder flights to the U.S.) due t
59 Koruman : Actually, New Caledonia and French Polynesia between them have around the GDP of US$15 billion, which almost exactly equals the combined GDP of Chris
60 Koruman : It is quite instructive to sequence these various thoughts in that order. The history of aviation is full of examples of airlines using predatory tac
61 Mariner : It is just as silly as Southwest bidding for Frontier in the US and not winning. Polynesian should have been a natural partner for Air NZ and allowed
62 Aerokiwi : Dominance of one carrier and the likelihood of predatory pricing to undermine any attempted new entrant. Why go through all that palava when you can
63 Mariner : I doubt that was in the mind of the World Bank when they put the deal together. But again, the presence of Air NZ on a number of routes has not stopp
64 DavidByrne : I believe that the region has adequate service to and from Australia and New Zealand, but what is really lacking (and which is a major disincentive t
65 Cchan : The recent code sharing announcement between NZ and SA probably signals NZ has given up plans to fly its own metal to South Africa.
66 TG992 : Okay lets wait and see. Same points posted on about 5 posts now
67 Antskip : I don't think many Australians are sure what to see in Canberra, either - apart from Parliament and the War Memorial. It is a strange city. The equiv
68 Mariner : When they built Canberra they ruined a perfectly good sheep station? I'll be more than happy in the National Gallery for a couple of days. And there
69 777ER : I can see the Tasman in 5 years being ruled by narrowbody aircraft in the forms of B737s, A320 familys, Ejets and C series connecting places like AKL
70 Aerokiwi : Urm, the World Bank? Are you kidding? Competition is usually at the forefront of their mind. I used to dream about this too, but have concluded that
71 Mariner : I guess we all perceive things differently, but that has little to do with their charter and a lot of the places they deal with are lucky to have one
72 Antskip : Can some say why NZ does not consider flying on to LHR etc from PER? They fly AKL-PER now, and it would seem to me that the recent decision of V Austr
73 DavidByrne : Could be done, I suppose, but the range of the 340 might be a bit of a limiting factor, and I understand the Q300 has longer legs. Mind you, the HS74
74 NZ107 : The last 50 odd NZ Av threads could help explaining too The risk especially for NZ not having any feed to PER other than from AKL could be high. You'
75 DavidByrne : Subsequent reports from Virgin Blue have explicitly denied this, and unequivocally stated that there were no discussions on VA's potential purchase o
76 TG992 : Sorry my point should have been AKL to past the west coast. Ground TG992
77 Post contains images VirginFlyer : West? You have to go a long way west of Canberra to hit water - somewhere in SA in fact!   But yes, east of Canberra is a very pretty area - the rol
78 Antskip : Thank you, NZ107 and DavidByrne for your insights, Just a few asides: 1) Despite the moves of V Australia, I would rate NZ's future far brighter. 2) T
79 Post contains images Antskip : Very sorry   ! That was some typo! or maybe a brain slip? (it is 35C here today!) So often I go West from Melbourne to the Great Southern Ocean (ou
80 777ER : DJ have denied V Australia is getting B772LRs. Where is it confirmed that VA is flying PER-LHR? So wouldn't you think with FJ flying to APW that FJ a
81 777ER : I certainly hope NZ launch either a DEN or IAH service. The service would be popular for East Coast connections and I know it would be well used duri
82 Mariner : For Kiwis, not a lot. There aren't many reasons to go. The main beach is a coral lagoon and you wouldn't want to go barefoot. All the better beaches
83 Kiwiandrew : I think ( hope) that VirginFlyer was not seriously suggesting an AKL-GUM flight but merely taking a gentle poke at some of the other 'daydream' route
84 Alangirvan : Somebody told Koruman, so it must be true.
85 DavidByrne : Yes, it's a strategy that could work, but sending pax on FJ from NAN-LAX is hardly going to support NZ's fragile APW-LAX and RAR-LAX routes - which i
86 NZ107 : TN/Air Tahiti, if French Polynesia isn't too far away? How about using their AT7s?
87 DavidByrne : That's possible, though I'd wonder about the traffic rights available to a French-based carrier between Pacific islands. It would be better in that c
88 Koruman : Because Air NZ management haven't grasped that Western Australia has the southern hemisphere's highest per capita income levels, and that Qantas woef
89 Post contains images Kiwiandrew : A few not quite random thoughts . Firstly , I agree with a lot of K'mans arguments , I too have been disappointed to see NZ fail to take advantage of
90 Kiwiandrew : Do we actually know with any degree of certainty that NZ has the rights from both Australia and the UK in order to do this ? I have been caught out b
91 NZ107 : Alone? Just PER-LHR? It needs feeds regardless; they are priceless to NZ. Why lose revenue on the flights from SYD/MEL/BNE if it's so glaringly obvio
92 VirginFlyer : Hehehehe, actually I was thinking there could be demand for a twice daily GUM-IVC in 777-300ERs when they come online. V/F
93 Koruman : Yes, just PER-LHR point to point. At present there are reportedly around 1,000 passengers per day who fly Perth-London, and they all stop at either S
94 Kiwiandrew : Thanks for the info K'man , I thought that the new agreement UK-New Zealand was pretty liberal , but I didnt realise quite how liberal . ( and yes ,
95 777ER : Thanks for the information. I was certain I read somewhere that UA was downgrading its DEN hub due to competition from SWA and F9's increasing market
96 SunriseValley : A N.Z. to India service has been bandied around from time to time. The bi-lateral agreement has been put in place . Clearly it would be at least a one
97 Post contains links Kiwiandrew : Do you know what the bilateral actually says about enroute stops , freedoms etc ? edited to add : found this link to a fragment of a news item re the
98 SunriseValley : John Macilree has said that frequently there are "codicils' attached to air operating agreements that are undisclosed. Not sure why since any interest
99 777ER : For a BOM/DEL service the quickest route is via SIN at 12329kms. Next option is via CNS at 12530kms, or via PER at 12629kms
100 KiwiRob : Maybe you should send him a letter, or a link to airliners.net.
101 Kiwiandrew : A minor quibble , but I think you mean 'shortest distance' which , in aviation, is not always the same thing as 'quickest' . In any case a 300km diff
102 SunriseValley : Exactly bigthumbsup}
103 Post contains links PA515 : Air Rarotonga (GZ) has one 34 seat Saab 340A (SF3) E5-EFS (c/n 340A-049) leased from SAAB and it is not an ex NZ aircraft (ex HB-AHK and G-GNTA). The
104 Post contains links NZ107 : Anyway it sounds as though the AT7 might be here for a little while longer: CAE wins contract for Mount Cook Airlines ATR 72 simulator Surely you woul
105 SunriseValley : What have Mt. Cook been using up to now?
106 TG992 : Again - I think we are way of track. NZ is not going to be flying IVC-SYD WLG-CBR PER-LHR or fly a Q300 around the mid pacific ANYTIME soon. Why would
107 DavidByrne : Explain? Is it the size, the speed/distances, or the likely support? Or some combination? Size: I can't see anything much larger than a Q300 being ve
108 Mariner : I don't think there should be an onslaught. Or you should not take it amiss if there is. I don't think anyone here, in the absence of Realdeal, serio
109 SunriseValley : For NZ to do either of these routes with their own metal they and the regulator will have to be very confident of their twin-engine fleet to handle h
110 Mr AirNZ : The guys (and gals) have been doing checks in Bangkok for the past umpten years.
111 SunriseValley : A nice break from the regular routine
112 NZdsgnr : NZ1 did say that they are on 'hire-purchase" and would be owned by NZ eventually.
113 NZ107 : I know, but it still sends a signal that they'll be around for a little while longer. The amount needed to purchase these planes shouldn't be too muc
114 Alangirvan : An aircraft which could have been a possibility is the Saab 2000. I think an airline in the Marshall Islands did order one. 50 seats, and much higher
115 Aerokiwi : Define "realistic". If you can't charge a rpemium for a nonstop service that's never been tested before, then why bother at all? But does NZ have slo
116 DavidByrne : Yes, IIRC they used to operate twice weekly from Majuro to Fiji, via Tarawa and Funafuti, weekly to Nadi and weekly to Suva. And dredging the deepest
117 TG992 : How much inter-island demand is there? And would you be willing to spend 3 hours on a Q300? E-Jets the investment for return is not viable. You need
118 JaseWGTN : I wonder if (And IF AirNZ could get traffic rights on all sectors), a AKL - PER - JNB/CPT - SCL/EZE - AKL route would work and vice versa?
119 Cchan : That is exactly what I am thinking about. I hope they are replacing the EMB soon, these things probably are close to 30 years old now and they fly a
120 NZ107 : Oh well, sounds better than taking lake-worthy ferries..
121 SunriseValley : The problem westbound on both routes is that the winds reduce the ground distances from the alternate aerodromes. The standard is, for one engine ino
122 Aerokiwi : You'd probably get a few backpackers on their RTWs heading back to Sweden, a few aid and government officials aaaaaand that's about it. It's not like
123 NZ1 : They are being purchased as the lease expires. All bar MCW will be in NZ ownership by the end of the year. NZ1
124 777ER : Are you talking about twice weekly or twice daily? Whats so bad about spending 3 hours in a Q300 then spending 3 hours in a CRJ?
125 HLZCPH : Thanks for the quick reply QF175! It's a long way to go to source another aircraft, price must have been right?
126 JaseWGTN : Yeah, I was kinda suprised by it too. It had an interesting route from Prague to Noumea stopping over in Muscat, Bangkok and Darwin. The wet lease in
127 RichardJF : Does the step up to A320 at 171 seats for NZ domestically mean somethings finally in the works for a 100 seater jet to replace the ATR?. It's probably
128 SunriseValley : No argument from me
129 HLZCPH : Interesting. I wonder who is doing the maint work on the Aircalin A320? Surely they wouldn't send it to France....or would they?!
130 CHCalfonzo : I think I read somewhere that it was going to Hong Kong. I could be wrong.
131 RichardJF : Napier wouldn't be extending the runway to 1750m rather than 1900m without some sort of indication from NZ.
132 NZ107 : It's Jetstar who also want to use the runway which they currently can't. The locals have been wanting jets for years.
133 RichardJF : 180 seaters to Napier???.....Jetstar would be in Dunedin and Hamilton now if it was so attractive
134 TG992 : Everything unless you like flying. Firstly 171 seats - no they will be about 150-160 with seat plus. Secondly no E-Jets - we will see a replacement o
135 NZ747 : I might be a bit late in the discussion, but as a Boeing man, I must say I was hoping Air NZ would go for the B737NG. A type proven on the New Zealand
136 Post contains images VirginFlyer : Coincidentally (I'm assuming), the A310 Aircalin used to fly is now with CSA: I wonder whether they have some sort of ongoing technical cooperation,
137 777ER : What about the 1900D, or would the Q300 replace the 1900Ds? Why add the E190 when it adds another aircraft type with extra crew costs when you could
138 DavidByrne : I agree - I think that we're getting a bit precious these days about what's "acceptable" in flying terms. Practically speaking, the choice right now
139 Aerokiwi : And for what reason would you be travelling between the islands in the first place?
140 767er : Interesting news.................... PILOT PROJECT TO FACILITATE PASSENGERS BETWEEN NEW ZEALAND AND THE UNITED STATES New Zealand travellers will be t
141 777ER : I think what you said about whats acceptable in terms of flying these days is the problem that passengers have in terms of what aircraft is used. You
142 DavidByrne : For whatever reason I chose. But seriously, I look back at my OAG from Dec 1985, and I see PH operating a weekly 737-200 RAR-APW, increasing to 2x we
143 DavidByrne : Agree - but if there are no services whatsoever on a route (or in the case of the mid-South Pacific, on any route) then pax will fly on whatever is o
144 Aerokiwi : The operative word here being "inside", as in domestically, which I fully agree should be encouraged. But the reality is that there is very little so
145 Koruman : TG992, I don't understand your logic. Perth is the Australian market with the strongest UK links by far, both economically and in terms of leisure tr
146 DavidByrne : I'd respectfully disagree on some levels, though you're certainly correct that the connection is limited at present - not least by the lack of physic
147 DavidByrne : This is a really excellent way of testing that route out. Pity the 77L wasn't available when NZ re-equipped . . . Oh well, there's always the 789 . .
148 NZ1 : Its at HAECO in HKG. Due out end of next week I believe. Was to have been done in CHC, but they are chokka. NZ1
149 Kiwiandrew : Unfortunately I am inclined to agree with you on this ( wow , that must be at least twice this week I have agreed with you - one of us is slipping )
150 VirginFlyer : I'd throw Learmonth out there. Diversion en route probably wouldn't make to much of a dent, but since the calculation is to do with carrying alternat
151 Kiwiandrew : I do have a slight problem with this , if I understood you correctly you were saying that this service would work well for Western Australian busines
152 Cchan : Unlikely, since they have now purchased the ATR-72s. To use a Q300 for inter-island operations is just a silly idea. Why would NZ or even DJ want to
153 SunriseValley : They would fly the established air ways once they crossed into India. The GC is close to MAA and BOM both of which would have nearby air ways to Euro
154 SXI899 : Iran isn't really a problem when it comes to overflights, even the US carriers overfly the country (Northwest even had a DC-10 divert to Tehran once
155 SunriseValley : Would you be able to get a flight time, westbound ,PER-LHR off your software ? I am interested in what the average head wind component might be. I wa
156 DavidByrne : I find it disappointing that the idea is dismissed as "silly" without any analysis or serious commentary. Truth is, there is a long history of the us
157 Mariner : Don't quit! I'm with you. It's the reason why I wish Air NZ had won the bid for Polynesian - it might have given them Apia as a base for some small i
158 MainMAN : Or why AKL-PEK has more potential than AKL-HKG-MAN, or even AKL-SYD-HKG-MAN !! But wasn't the original idea of LHR via HKG the fact that the London/H
159 Post contains links CHCalfonzo : Pac Blue launches market assualt with new seats A few interesting little tidbits in there. New flights are coming in the next year.
160 777ER : I think PacBlue will do well with Y+ over the Tasman and the Pacific Island flights - especially from Australia, but I'm not so sure about domestic.
161 VirginFlyer : This begs the obvious question of what (if anything) NZ will do in response? V/F
162 Cchan : Sadly to say, an airline is a business. For example, a passenger wants to get from RAR to APW one way: if you operate a direct service between the tw
163 777ER : What can NZ do thou? I suppose NZ could easily change the name of Space+ to 'domesticY+' and for Tasman/Island flights re-name it to 'short haul Y+'
164 777ER : A Gulf Air A340 landed in WLG as flight GF8301 at 5.30pm from SYD with the Bahrain soccer team on board to play the All White's at the Westpac Stadium
165 Post contains links 777ER : Branson and Virgin Blue battle over name - http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...attle-over-name-20091106-i0zu.html
166 NZ107 : Must have been some sight to see that come into WLG! Then the departure is going to be just as amazing to see. Is that the first A340 to visit WLG?
167 777ER : First A340 to land at WLG, but the biggest was a UA and NZ B747
168 DavidByrne : I was sure there had been a BA 747 diversion back in the days when BA still served NZ?
169 HLZCPH : It would be a pretty light A340 with just a soccer team (sorry football) and a few extras. Should get off the Wellington runway ok! I've experienced A
170 DavidByrne : I'm sure that NZ is not unhappy at carrying pax by such a route with a flying time of nine hours. But if DJ were to be persuaded by the Samoan govern
171 777ER : In the last week I read somewhere that around 80 people support team/fans/players will be on the plane and a mate at the airport today said that ther
172 Cchan : If there is a direct service, people will go on a direct service. Considering that there are plenty of Fijians in RAR and RAR-NAN is a better market
173 Koruman : Cchan's comments reflect the sort of lack of understanding of the history of Air NZ's network which I sometimes suspect the current CEO of. I may be
174 Post contains images Aerokiwi : Oh that was me - and I stand by it. Offended? From you Koruman? Thee who denigrates the Chinese and Japanese markets at any and every opportunity? NE
175 SXI899 : You'd be about right. I plotted it with the forecast winds based on a departure from PER on the 12th at 1400UTC. Zero-wind gives a flight time in a B
176 Koruman : No, no, no. Air New Zealand has done a magnificent job of driving away higher-yielding European and North American visitors from its Pacific Island s
177 Koruman : And that is why PER-LHR would work (but in a 77L, not a 77E). Current Qantas flights are hours longer (22h 45 outbound cf 17.47), as are Singapore Ai
178 Xiaotung : I found your comment purely based on your stereotype (some would definitely find it racist). Who are those every other western airlines? Last time I
179 Koruman : How can this be racist? I am arguing that Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan are mature, sophisticated markets (with high per capita GDP, significant de
180 Cchan : "History" is the keyword here. The economic climate has changed in recent years and NZ need to change to adapt too. It is very nice that visitors fro
181 Post contains links Mariner : I told you not to quit - as you see, you've opened quite a can of worms. This such an enormous subject - and an important one - that it's hard to kno
182 DavidByrne : I couldn't have said it better - this is exactly my concern. This isn't really about whether NZ buys GZ or uses a Q300 around the Pacific Islands, bu
183 Cchan : Many of the Chinese passengers on NZ's AKL-HKG flights are residents in southern China, such as Guangzhou. Hong Kong residents usually go with CX. Al
184 ZKNEA : Did anyone get any photos of the GF aircraft? I have some videos of the landing and water cannon salute but don't know if/how I can post them on here
185 Aerokiwi : Yes, you do. Something about cheap and nasty keeps springs to mind. You only stopped banging on about it after I presented data that proved Chinese a
186 Xiaotung : The tour groups fly which airline is irrelevent here. My point was about the average number of days tour group spend downunder, 13 days. Because you
187 777ER : I would love to see some proof of this I think the problem with NZs code-sharing on FJ and TN is that NZ don't allow airpoints accural on their servi
188 Mariner : I'd somewhat disagree with that. The major European holidays are still when they were and Paris in August is still deserted of French except for the
189 777ER : I wouldn't be surprised to see NZ quickly try and think of something/expand its AKL-PI-LAX flights to include more codeshares from as many Star partn
190 Mariner : I hope they think quick, because the foundations for it are being laid now, right before out very eyes. Not what I suggested necessarily, but somethi
191 DavidByrne : Might be easy for the 77W range-wise, but it might be hard to lift a decent load off APW's 9,800 ft runway with a flight that long? Any views on that
192 Mariner : Me? No, no views at all. I don't buy into the technical stuff, I'm a Luddite, I have trouble with an on/off switch. It is only speculation, laying ou
193 Aerokiwi : Oh I'm not disputing the reasons for the rise of LCCs. I'm simply saying that where they emerge, vacation ptterns do tend to change. I read an employ
194 RichardJF : Seems likely to me that NZ will be going to a pretty high density A320. After all 171 seats was stated and matches JQ and DJ . So....320's flying to D
195 Mariner : I'm sure that's true, I know among my own family in the UK think of a Big Summer Holiday and big-ish winter one. Or v.v. And sure, even NZ has change
196 Koruman : I still think that the same misconceptions which have impaired Air NZ's understanding of its Pacific network have now clouded people's minds. I'm fra
197 Zkpilot : There has also been talk of PER upgrading its ILS due to its isolation
198 Mariner : I'll agree with that. When I was coming back down here to live from the States, I wanted to give myself a few days in Samoa. The dogs would be in qua
199 777ER : How would a SYD-PPT-ATL route or SYD-NAN-ATL route work for the B77W? NZ will NOT HAVE 171 seats in their A320s. How on earth would they fit the spac
200 Cchan : Agreed. IMO, the best strategy for NZ and DJ wrt financially troubled airlines like TN is to do nothing and let them collapse or even put on the comp
201 Post contains links DavidByrne : The airline's own announcement said that they would . . . http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/about...omestic-boeing-737300s-03nov09.htm
202 NZ107 : That's a really poor decision if they do decide to put Space+ in.. It'll mean that the rest of the cabin will have less legroom than even Jetstar.
203 Cchan : Maybe they will have regular economy and Space- instead?
204 777ER : The announcement said "around 171 seats", so that doesn't mean it will have exactly 171 seats. I highly doubt NZ will remove Space+ as it woud loose
205 Post contains links 777ER : New Zealand Aviation Thread #66 (by 777ER Nov 13 2009 in Civil Aviation)
206 MillwallSean : Lets get real. Those Europeans that want a stopover today usually take it in their favourite holidayspot SE Asia. Travelling over the US isnt an opti
207 Mariner : Sorry, disagree, both from personal and business experience. My Australian business partner is heavily involved in (high end) South Pacific vacations
208 MillwallSean : Jetset and Turkey in the same sentence? Must be some misunderstanding there. Turkey is a famliy vacation spot attracting large number of package holi
209 Mariner : Please read what I actually wrote: The jetset fled Turkey. They fled Turkey when the family vacationers discovered it, but it was the jetset who disc
210 Post contains links EI787 : Please continue here: New Zealand Aviation Thread #66 (by 777ER Nov 13 2009 in Civil Aviation)
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