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AF CDG-NRT 12:30 Hours Or 14:30 Hours?  
User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 197 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Hi there !

I was looking at AF schedule from NRT to CDG and saw the following flights :

AF 279 NRT - CDG 332 12 HRS 40 MIN
AF 275 NRT - CDG 77W 12 HRS 30 MIN
AF 277 NRT - CDG 77W 14 HRS 30 MIN


How comes that flight AF 277 takes 2 more hours if all the flights are non stop ?

This is a night flight, but I do not think it has anything to do, right ? I mean, maybe it takes an alternative route that makes the trip 2 hours longer ??

Cheers !

[Edited 2009-11-07 11:06:39]

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

I have heard several times before that the night flight takes a bit longer than all the other flights, it takes a longer route or flies at slower speeds to make for a good arrival time at CDG. However, I only heard this from JAL staff so I am unable to say I am 100% sure. Hope it helps.


Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4901 times:

The fact that AF277 is a night flight is part of the answer. It departs NRT at 9:55 pm and it's the last passenger flight leaving NRT (at least in term 1) before the airport closes. Then with its 14h30 flight time, it lands at CDG at ... 4:25 am  coffee  . It's the first AF flight arriving at CDG.
So this flight cannot leave NRT later ant it cannot decently arrive at CDG earlier than 4:30 am, even if there is no curfew at night at CDG. So they just fly not as fast as the other flights to extend the flight time. I love this flight because it allows you to have a complete working day in Tokyo, a long night on board  cloudnine   zzz  and a complete working day in Paris (or elsewhere if you take an early connection in CDG).


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4901 times:

If flying at normal speed or the normal route, AF277 would arrive at 2:30AM in CDG...
As the flight can not leave NRT later (because f the crfew), it's taking a longer route (further north) and is reducing speed not to arrive in CDG too early


User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

Hi,

Thanks for the answers !

If I am not wrong, this flight used to land at CDG at 02.30 or 02:15 at CDG. Its surprising that now the flight arrives at 04:30 am ( with no curfew at all at CDG ). I guess that even if the flight goes at lower speed, 2two extra hours must represent a LOT more fuel, isn´t ? Does it really make sense economicwise ?


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4852 times:



Quoting SQ773 (Reply 4):
I guess that even if the flight goes at lower speed, 2two extra hours must represent a LOT more fuel, isn´t ? Does it really make sense economicwise ?

I'm not an expert in fuel consumption at various speed, so I don't know. There are probably some experts on line on A.net who can give us their opinion on this. But what I can say is that this flight is "strategic" for AF and is very appreciated by business pax for the reason I mentionned in reply #2. In addition, this flight ensures the connection with the SB (Air Calin) flight from NOU (AF code-shared). So AF277 is an important flight for AF.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4784 times:



Quoting SQ773 (Reply 4):
If I am not wrong, this flight used to land at CDG at 02.30 or 02:15 at CDG. Its surprising that now the flight arrives at 04:30 am ( with no curfew at all at CDG ).

This flight always had the same schedule and never landed in CDG at 2:15 or 2:30AM.

Beforme being operated with a B77W, it was the flight that was coming from NOU at the time AF operated the route with its own metal (B744).


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4655 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
Beforme being operated with a B77W, it was the flight that was coming from NOU at the time AF operated the route with its own metal (B744).

Before AF277 moved to 77W, there was also a period (2001-2002 I think) where AF was still operating the NRT-NOU sector with its own metal but it was disconnected from the NRT-CDG sector. NRT-NOU was operated by an A343 based in NOU and the connecting NRT-CDG was still a B744


User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

There is a price difference aswell for AF277, AF must know that more business flyers would be on this flight because its more convienient.
I did HKG - CDG a few years ago left HGK at 00:30 and arrived in CDG at 06:00 (local times) but a 12 hour flight so no business flyer would lose a day by being up in the air.

Plus I think a lot of the connection flights at CDG start around 06:00, so an arrival at 04:30 would be better then at 02:30.

Grimey


User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4269 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4520 times:



Quoting SQ773 (Reply 4):
I guess that even if the flight goes at lower speed, 2two extra hours must represent a LOT more fuel, isn´t ? Does it really make sense economicwise ?

Usually operating at a lower cost index base, means longer flighttime, but reducing fuel comsumption.
Of course, AF can standard already plan a longer route over Siberia. There are several routings possible, and depending on the winds, they might differ up to 45 minutes between these routes. Also then, I don't know how flexible AF is with their Russia-Siberia routings, since these choices have been acknowledged and agreed by governments too.

And, these are the scheduled times. So, does this AF277 flight actually arrive quite a bit before it's scheduled arrival time in CDG? Or do they always stick close to the published times? Due to enroute winds at cruising altitude, arrival times might be brought either forward or backward several times during such longhaul flights, so that is an item which is, even with preflight planning, not always easy to control



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4298 times:



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 9):
And, these are the scheduled times. So, does this AF277 flight actually arrive quite a bit before it's scheduled arrival time in CDG? Or do they always stick close to the published times? Due to enroute winds at cruising altitude, arrival times might be brought either forward or backward several times during such longhaul flights, so that is an item which is, even with preflight planning, not always easy to control

Generally, they try their best to not arrive earlier, simply because there will be nobody to welcome it at CDG (no AF staff, no police for immigration, etc). Sometimes, due to the factor you mentionned in your post, it may arrive 10-15 min earlier than the scheduled time but never more than that.


User currently offlineHBJZA From Switzerland, joined Jan 2006, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4245 times:

Why then not change completely the schedule because as it has been already said, lower the speed and taking longer route is not really environement friendly. How do the other majors do with their NRT-europe flights ? LX, KL, IB, LH, etc...

User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4269 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4209 times:



Quoting HBJZA (Reply 11):
Why then not change completely the schedule because as it has been already said, lower the speed and taking longer route is not really environement friendly.

Route use depends very strictly on ETOPS operations. They must always fly withing a 180 minute from a enroute alternate which is available for them to land (above weather minima). So, one can imagine that with the weather in Siberia, and many airports having 1 runway only, not all airports are available in the season between October and April.
Then also, Russian federation provides a couple of routes to each airline (some carriers have different routes then others to use), and the airline have to use one of these routes.
Also, a longer route does not always mean use of more fuel. It depends on upper air winds too. Flightplanning can adjust the rating of engines to reduce fuelconsumption with positive winds.

There is one possibility that this flight is always using the 'Mongolia' route? This is a route over Siberia which is non-Etops and overflies Mongolian airspace, Northern part of China and South-Korea. Flighttime is quite a bit longer, but you can always operate is since you don't follow the ETOPS regulations. Said that, it depends if Mongolia has granted overfly permissions for this flight on a daily base. Maybe somebody from AF can confirm?



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4188 times:



Quoting HBJZA (Reply 11):
How do the other majors do with their NRT-europe flights ? LX, KL, IB, LH, etc...

They don't have night flight from NRT to europe.

Quoting HBJZA (Reply 11):
Why then not change completely the schedule

Because there is no other schedule possible if AF wants to continue to offer this (popular) night flight.
As said before, a later take off from NRT is not possible because of the curfew.

AF offers two other flights NRT-CDG :

AF279 leaves NRT at 09:30AM to land in CDG at 14h10
AF275 leaves NRT at 12h45 to land in CDG at 17h15

When introducing the A380 on the route, AF will reduce its frequencies to 2 x Daily on CDG-NRT-CDG but will open next winter 2010/2011 a daily CDG-HND-CDG


User currently offlineAirCatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

If flying like this is not as efficent as flying at normal speed and there is no curfew at CDG, why not just fly at normal speed and then let the pax rest/sleep in the plane upon landing at CDG?

User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

F/C may like longer flight to have enough sleep before arriving to Paris, but economy passengers would like to escape as soon as possible, especially from AF's celebrate 10-abreast 77W. I would rather arrive 2:30am and lie down wherever carpet-floor.

Other extreme example: KE's YYZ-ICN flight leaves 23:50 and arrive ICN at 2:30. Transportation at 2:30 is horrible, so KE operates special buses (not complimentary) to downtown.


User currently offlineLuckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3356 times:



Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 15):
Other extreme example: KE's YYZ-ICN flight leaves 23:50 and arrive ICN at 2:30. Transportation at 2:30 is horrible, so KE operates special buses (not complimentary) to downtown.

I would imagine that flight relies a little more on connections than NRT-CDG. Is there a bank in ICN at that time of the morning a la Dubai and other Middle Eastern airports?


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3356 times:



Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 14):
If flying like this is not as efficent as flying at normal speed and there is no curfew at CDG, why not just fly at normal speed and then let the pax rest/sleep in the plane upon landing at CDG?

Totally unfeasible in practice : some pax will want to leave, some others will want to stay on-board... An airplane on the ground at its destination airport is not an hotel.
AF seems to be very happy with the performances of this flight and the pax like it, so what more do you want ?


User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2935 times:



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 16):
Is there a bank in ICN at that time of the morning a la Dubai and other Middle Eastern airports?

Unlike DXB, in which 2am is sort of busiest hour of a day, ICN is deserted in this time around - no bank, almost no shops. I think it is same for CDG. No departures between midnight and 8am in usual, and arrival rush begins around 4-5am.


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