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Why No More Life For UA 757?  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2885 posts, RR: 10
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15343 times:
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If UA is looking to replace its 94 757's, why aren't they outfitting some to be transatlantic?
UA, while has maily "truck routes" it seems like they could use some of their 757's for routes like IAD to DUB, LIS, MAD and many more. What about northern Brazil?
What will they use to replace the beloved p.s. planes? Why don't they have p.s. to SF and LA from IAD since so many flights from Europe and the middle east to the west coast need that service for F & C tansfers?
I know they aint young. But what's the plan? It seems like a renovated 757 is perfect sized for for some trans atlantic routes and more?
Any insight?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3204 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15328 times:



Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
If UA is looking to replace its 94 757's,

96, currently, as one ship was just returned to lessor... ship 5430, if memory serves.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Why don't they have p.s. to SF and LA from IAD since so many flights from Europe and the middle east to the west coast need that service for F & C tansfers?

Insufficient premium demand.

Besides, there are quite a few widebodies on the routes with 3-cabins anyway.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Any insight?

I think all of us are just hoping and waiting to see what the RFP brings for fleet replacement.

Come on 772LR  Big grin  crossfingers 


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9328 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15176 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
Come on 772LR

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
wouldn't mind a 77W order also  Wink



yep.
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15126 times:

Could these be of any use to AA? I cant remember the engine type on the UA metal.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15056 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
I think all of us are just hoping and waiting to see what the RFP brings for fleet replacement.

I think so too. Airbus is prepring a pimped up A321. But even that will not be able to replace the 757 1 to 1 on the longer US routes in term of payload/range.



Interestingly a combination of a UA and DL RFP could push either Airbus or Boeing to come up with something new. They have the scale.

There a discussion on the topic on tech ops: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/258892/


User currently offlineJolau1701 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15033 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
I think all of us are just hoping and waiting to see what the RFP brings for fleet replacement.

Come on 772LR

Four words: Guppy, The Next Generation!


User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14934 times:



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
Could these be of any use to AA?

AA is not very happy with the economics of the 757 either.

757 No Longer Working For AA (by ArniePie Jul 15 2009 in Civil Aviation)



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineAirman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 975 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14170 times:

AA's 757's have RR's I do believe that they did get rid of all the EX TWA 757's as they had PW engines. UA's 757's also are PW powered


Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13910 times:

For what UA does with their 757-200s the 737-900ER would be a good replacement, it has a similar capacity at a lower CASM. It would also have commonality with CO's own 737-900ER fleet, should a merger be in their future.

With regards to the PS flights, again if CO/UA merge CO's 767-200ER fleet would be perfect for the P.S. flights.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13582 times:

it's one thing to be upset with a plane's economics (heck, i'm sure those 744 operators are not gloating either), but the bigger problem with the 757 is the lack of suitable alternatives, esp in the long-n-thin or hot-n-high markets that the A321 can't match.

i've always advocated the Boeing 737-700ER (the BBJ-derived one with the 10,000 km range) for even longer and even thinner TATL routes, but just surprised no one really took it up (and the only major known user is ANA from NGO to BOM, if it's not cancelled yet). UA can sure use a few of these for IAD to Europe, or even ORD to western Europe.

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 6):
AA is not very happy with the economics of the 757 either.



User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13514 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
For what UA does with their 757-200s the 737-900ER would be a good replacement, it has a similar capacity at a lower CASM. It would also have commonality with CO's own 737-900ER fleet, should a merger be in their future.

I would expect UA to go with an A321-200HGW to leverage their A319 and A320 fleet. They either just sent or will soon send the last of their 737 Classics to the Rest Home in the Desert so I expect all those pilots and FOs either have or are working on their A320 family ratings.

I imagine the real issue for UA is that the bulk of their narrowbody order will be delivered in a timeframe where many feel will be when new families will be available or will almost be ready. So if they're not careful, they could end up with scores of the "old" model and scores of the "new" or be receiving their entire order as the "old" model just as the "new" model comes out. And neither Boeing nor Airbus have leaked any serious data on the projected performance of their design studies, so it remains to be seen if either will actually have a model capable of flying 200/225 people 4000nm/7500km.

It's possible that UA's less-than-bedrock financial position is not the only reason they want the airframe manufacturer to take on all the risks in their current RFP - they might want to be sure they're not caught out by committing to the 737NG or A320 just to have Boeing launch the "797" or Airbus the "A30X" and put them at a disadvantage to their competition who order the new models to replace their existing 737NG/A320 fleets.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5173 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13310 times:



Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 9):
i've always advocated the Boeing 737-700ER (the BBJ-derived one with the 10,000 km range) for even longer and even thinner TATL routes, but just surprised no one really took it up (and the only major known user is ANA from NGO to BOM, if it's not cancelled yet). UA can sure use a few of these for IAD to Europe, or even ORD to western Europe.

The 737-700ER is not economically feasible for those types of routes, that's why its not that popular honestly. Its a niche aircraft for a more high yielding premium layout - if you try and outfit that aircraft in a typical 115 or 120 or so seat layout the CASM would be horrendous - especially on the competitive North Atlantic runs.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13283 times:
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The only way you could transport 115-125 people in a 737-700ER is if they all had carry-ons. The auxiliary fuel tanks take up too much hold volume and TOW to allow them one piece of baggage, much less two or more.

User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12829 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
And neither Boeing nor Airbus have leaked any serious data on the projected performance of their design studies, so it remains to be seen if either will actually have a model capable of flying 200/225 people 4000nm/7500km.

I find it amazing neither of these two companies have thought of an economical airliner that can do the 200/225 people with 4,000nm abilities, especially since so many airlines have found a new life for the 757. So it's starting, people like UA are looking to replace a huge fleet of 757's with no great alternative.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
With regards to the PS flights, again if CO/UA merge CO's 767-200ER fleet would be perfect for the P.S. flights.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
It's possible that UA's less-than-bedrock financial position

Let's hope the last statement prevents the first one from happening. I'm convinced their 757 problem is one of bad route decisions and not the 757's fault.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12338 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 13):
I find it amazing neither of these two companies have thought of an economical airliner that can do the 200/225 people with 4,000nm abilities,

I am sure they have, but planes that can carry 180 people 3,000NM is probably more profitable.

Quoting Airman99o (Reply 7):
I do believe that they did get rid of all the EX TWA 757's as they had PW engines.

They are with DL now.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12214 times:

Quoting Manfredj (Reply 13):
I'm convinced their 757 problem is one of bad route decisions and not the 757's fault.

What's wrong with how UA uses their 757-200s, they for the most part are not capable of doing trans-Atlantic flights (no ETOPS etc..).

[Edited 2009-11-09 08:16:13]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11972 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
I expect all those pilots and FOs either have or are working on their A320 family ratings.

Some of the Capts might be. Many of the Junior Capts are in F/O training s they can't hold Capt anymore. Many of the F/O's are out of a job.


User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11616 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
What's wrong with how UA uses their 757-200s, they for the most part are not capable of doing trans-Atlantic flights

This has been discussed many times on ANet..

Simply put, United has no interest in operating the 757 trans atlantic.

The 767-300ER allows a much more comfortable product.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11075 times:
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UA is the only US-flagged carrier (and one of a diminishing pool of carriers, period) who fly three-classes of service on all of their intercontinental and transoceanic services. So if UA were to launch TATL 757 service, one would expect they'd have to do three-classes there, as well.

UA does have the three-class p.s. birds serving the SFO/LAX-JFK route, however with the replacement of seats with suites on the 767, all UA intercontinental and transoceanic services have a suite product in First Class.

The p.s. First Class product is the old SQ Spacebed. And the Business Class product is the "reclining" seats now being phased out of the widebody fleet in favor of new lie-flat seating. So flying p.s. planes across the Atlantic would provide a less comfortable experience than taking a UA widebody. And if UA tried to fit suites and lie-dlat seats in the 757, I expect the CASM would be ridiculous resulting in very expensive fares to generate respectable yields - something UA might not be able to command as they would be using these planes for services to "secondary" cities (within their own network).


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10924 times:

Given that UA does not fly the 757 over the Atlantic, they don't REALLY need the 757 at all. The A319 is very good at challenging hot and high flights. It also has a lot of range.

AA is betting their 757 will soldier on with winglets and new interiors. It might work well. Or, maybe it's better to just buy 739ER or A321. Improved engines alone could get the necessary range from those aircraft. Or if not, it's not impossible to just do without the 757.

Or, a few 757 can be kept for the really tough missions, scrapping 75+ of the rest!


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10881 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Interestingly a combination of a UA and DL RFP could push either Airbus or Boeing to come up with something new. They have the scale.

I'm really surprised that neither Airbus or Boeing have attempted a true 757 replacement given how many DL and UA alone need to replace. Then add in the rest of the 757 operators who are happy with the aircraft it seems like it would be worth bringing out a 757 replacement before the Y1

Could they maybe do a scaled down 787 (narrow body version) using available engines before the Y1


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10804 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
And the Business Class product is the "reclining" seats now being phased out of the widebody fleet in favor of new lie-flat seating.



The new lie-flat seating is only being installed in their international 767s and 777s. The Business Class seats in the P.S. 757s are the same or similar to the domestic 767s and 777s...


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10659 times:

Why is there a general assumption in this thread that UA's 757s will going away in the near term?

I know they put out an RFP, but that seems a little wing and prayer like considering that UA is asking the manufacturers to assume nearly all the risks of ownership (again, if UA gets away with that, other airlines will want to as well and that changes the business pretty substantially).


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5173 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10492 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
The A319 is very good at challenging hot and high flights. It also has a lot of range.

The 319 is not a 757 replacement; not unless they can figure out how to put an additional 62 seats in em. We'll see what Airbus can offer in its improved A321 to UA, but otherwise right now the 739ER is a better replacement for the 757.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9579 times:
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Quoting United787 (Reply 21):
The new lie-flat seating is only being installed in their international 767s and 777s.

According to UA, they are installing it on their 747s, as well.


25 Tommy777 : Already installed on the 747s, 777s in 2010. Strange that CO which is the most successful of the legacy carriers over the Atlantic can get economics
26 Warreng24 : UA needs the 752 for the West Coast to Hawaii runs that can't support a 763.
27 DLPhoenix : The 757 has an edge in a niche market of aprox 100 frames: - "Short" and thin TATL routes. - Heavy load US transcons. In both cases airlines can use
28 Stitch : CO's BusinessFirst was a much more acceptable TATL premium product compared to AA's domestic First Class, which allowed CO to actually charge a "prem
29 Rb211tristar : The new UA C-class is so nice, I now go out of my way to fly those routes... and I'm sure UA knows this. Therefore, I agree that it would not venture
30 United1P : I believe he was saying that the P.S. biz seats are the same as the old international biz seats that have since been phased out of the 747 (except fo
31 Post contains images Keesje : One of the few realitic low risk options seems a rewinged/ reengined / stretched A320 series, an A325/26 subseries. Break even could IMO be reached w
32 PGNCS : Almost assuredly not. Pratts. Correct; DL now operates the bulk of them (maybe all, I don't count tail numbers). The number of routes that require th
33 United1 : According to what has been posted on previous threads he RFP that UA has out does not cover replacing all of the 757s. Only the oldest are slated to
34 FLY777UAL : UA not operating the 757 trans-Atlantic has nothing to do with the aircraft being single aisle--with the advent of the IPTE product for inter-contine
35 Flighty : I was only suggesting it can fly those few routes where a 739ER or new A321 can't do it. As far as Hawaii goes, a 737 can do the flights, but more li
36 PlaneAdmirer : I feel like we are talking about a plane in the prime of it's life, sure it's getting older, but it's got plenty of life left and ability in it and he
37 Flylku : Yes but there would be no development savings. It would be certificated as a new aircraft.
38 Transpac787 : Something that would actually be a hinderance to UA's operation Given how their A319's and A320's can't take cans, why would they want their A321's (
39 UnitedFA07 : When I was based in NYC I had also heard that the PS First Class seats were old SQ seats. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPQGijfpdvQ&feature=quickli
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