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Boeing To Build 737s Into The 2020s  
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12321 times:

just in
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/south_king/ren/news/67092097.html

"Boeing expects to continue building the world’s most popular jetliner, the 737, into the 2020s in Renton, a top Boeing official [Mike Bair] said in an economic speech Tuesday."

Next question...will it have LEAP X or GTF engines?

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12300 times:

well i dont see why they shouldn't?
737 is most popular Aircraft ever build and the demand is still up!

Long way to go baby!!!!



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 12158 times:

I feel like there will be some engine improvements or something between now and 2020 for the 737 for it to remain efficient and competitive. Not really surprising with the huge backlog Boeing has

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 12170 times:

They just have to wait and see if the 737 will be marketable by 2020. I image they planned to continue to build 757s til the early 2010s if asked in 1999, still they closed the production line by 2004 due to lack of demand.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineACKattack From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11926 times:

This means that we could possibly see 50 years of continuous 737 production, which would be amazing feat.

User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31382 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11903 times:
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Even if Boeing does decide to launch a new narrowbody commercial airliner family in the late 2010's, there is still the P-8 program which will likely be churning out frames into the 2020's for the USN and foreign militaries.

User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 11678 times:

Interesting. So it raises a few questions:

Besides the brakes, what are other major possibilities for substantial weight reduction?

What Are the aerodynamic improvements which can be made, if any?

What sort of maintenance improvements are there?

Can passenger comfort be improved?



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 11624 times:
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Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
"Boeing expects to continue building the world's most popular jetliner, the 737, into the 2020s in Renton, a top Boeing official [Mike Bair] said in an economic speech Tuesday."

I guess this makes sense. The really new engine developments will be available by then. It is also more or less in accordance with the year 2024 or so that Airbus has stated for the EIS of a successor of the A320. Both planes will probably see another upgrade which will keep them fit enough to stay attractive until the successor will become available to the airliners.  Wink


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 11476 times:



Quoting ACKattack (Reply 4):
This means that we could possibly see 50 years of continuous 737 production, which would be amazing feat.

Amazing yes, but when compared to the C-130, which has been in continuous for 55 years and has a current backlog of 5 or 6 years, it loses a little of its luster.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8492 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11418 times:
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Why build a 787 junior until the economics make sense. Engine technology can be advanced on a 737-1000.

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11379 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
They just have to wait and see if the 737 will be marketable by 2020. I image they planned to continue to build 757s til the early 2010s if asked in 1999, still they closed the production line by 2004 due to lack of demand.

Was it lack of demand for the 757 or was the 737-800 and 900 order list at that time, lackadaisical?
...........

I was told on my annual tour in October, Boeing was to build 2000 more 737's.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11311 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Even if Boeing does decide to launch a new narrowbody commercial airliner family in the late 2010's, there is still the P-8 program which will likely be churning out frames into the 2020's for the USN and foreign militaries.

That's the first thing I thought of.

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 6):
Besides the brakes, what are other major possibilities for substantial weight reduction?

What Are the aerodynamic improvements which can be made, if any?

What sort of maintenance improvements are there?

Can passenger comfort be improved?

-For weight, I would imagine interior materials change.
-For aerodynamics, I would imagine slight re-profiling of the wing, leading edges, etc.
-For maintenance, I would guess, the same types of improvements Airbus is doing for the A330 mx-interval improvements.
-For passenger comfort, they've already planned an upgraded interior:
http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2...boeing-rolls-out-new-737-interior/



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11245 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
"Boeing expects to continue building the world’s most popular jetliner, the 737, into the 2020s in Renton

God forbid!!!
 Yeah sure


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11239 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 8):
Amazing yes, but when compared to the C-130, which has been in continuous for 55 years and has a current backlog of 5 or 6 years, it loses a little of its luster.

And the C-130 takes second place to the Beechcraft Bonanza, in continuous production now for 62 years and counting.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11099 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 13):
And the C-130 takes second place to the Beechcraft Bonanza, in continuous production now for 62 years and counting.

But Beechcraft Bonanza's built today have almost nothing in common with the Bonanza built 62 years ago.


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User currently offlineODwyerPW From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 895 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10953 times:

We had a very nice thread going for the last two weeks or so about longevity of the 737 and how much more evolved it will become.

How Much More Evolved Will The 737 Become? (by C5LOAD Oct 26 2009 in Civil Aviation)

very enjoyable thread....lots of good contributions from some of the more knowledgeable members.



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10859 times:

The question comes to mind regarding what Boeing and Airbus will do if fuel prices go through the roof again and appear to not be coming back down soon. Would that change their plans with respect to their smallest narrow body airliners? Would Boeing start from a clean sheet of paper to design a 737 replacement? Popularity can change in a heart beat under the right set of circumstances.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10518 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
But Beechcraft Bonanza's built today have almost nothing in common with the Bonanza built 62 years ago.

...and 737-900ERs have almost nothing in common with 737-100s.

If you think about it, the 737 was introduced about 12 years ago and it still gathers a lot of orders. 2020 isn't that far into the future. They should have no problem getting orders until then, especially if they get a GTF engine on it.



You know nothing Jon Snow
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10325 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
But Beechcraft Bonanza's built today have almost nothing in common with the Bonanza built 62 years ago.

More than a 731 and a 739 do.

The C-130 has the advantage of being sold primarily to government customers--much less incentive for wholesale improvement unlike the 737 or Bonanza.


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9987 times:

I just see a statement like this as telling the world, "we have no plans on producing an all new 100-200 pax variant, so mr competition, feel free to take a large piece of our pie."

The first manufacturer to produce a new 737/320 variant will be successful indeed.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9802 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9874 times:



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 6):


Besides the brakes, what are other major possibilities for substantial weight reduction?

The carbon fiber brakes have been available for over a year. There are other opportunities out there, but they require a large capital expenditure. The 737 is already lighter than the A320 since it has gone through so many transformations to improve its performance. The low hanging fruit are gone.

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 6):

Can passenger comfort be improved?

Yes and it will happen next year. The new interior with pivot bins from the 777/787 and redesigned lighting/interior will improve comfort. FlyDubai will be the first customer.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 10):

Was it lack of demand for the 757 or was the 737-800 and 900 order list at that time, lackadaisical?

The 737NG's ability to do transcons in the US did a good job of killing the 757. The 737 on a transcon can beat the seat mile costs of a 757 and it also has versatility to do shorter flights as well. The 757 does have a niche market and is an awesome plane, but its market was not big enough to sustain an entire platform of a rate of 1 plane per year.

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 17):

...and 737-900ERs have almost nothing in common with 737-100s.

Actually that is not true. Many components are shared. In fact there are quite a few parts that date back to the 727. The mechanical components share many commonalities since it has always been the theme of change the minimum possible unless it has a positive payback. They might be inconsequential to the passenger, but systems are the most expensive component to design. From the steering tiller to the hydraulic system, there are a lot of shared components. Boeing does not design new parts if it does not have to. The 737NG has many parts that were hand drawn on paper many years ago with people who are no longer with us. Trust me, I had to decipher many of them.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9800 times:



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 1):
737 is most popular Aircraft ever build and the demand is still up!

It's the most popular *jetliner*. The title of most popular aircraft, I believe, goes to the Cessna Skyhawk. Most popular large aircraft would probably be the DC-3.

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 6):
What Are the aerodynamic improvements which can be made, if any?

Is the 737 still running on a non-supercritical wing? If so, that would be an obvious option.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 20):

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 17):

...and 737-900ERs have almost nothing in common with 737-100s.

Actually that is not true. Many components are shared.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 20):
From the steering tiller to the hydraulic system, there are a lot of shared components.

Are they truly shared components (same P/N) or just same pedigree (same architecture and/or same base P/N but a different dash number)? In my experience, commonality between the 737-300/400/500 and the 737NG is way higher than between the 737-100/200 and the 737NG.

Tom.


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5294 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9788 times:



Quoting Chiad (Reply 12):
Boeing expects to continue building the world’s most popular jetliner, the 737, into the 2020s in Renton

Most popular? Nah, according to the backlogs that will be the A318/319/320/321 family.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9770 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 19):
I just see a statement like this as telling the world, "we have no plans on producing an all new 100-200 pax variant, so mr competition, feel free to take a large piece of our pie."

The first manufacturer to produce a new 737/320 variant will be successful indeed.

Will they? Quite honestly I have my doubts. Aircraft manufacturers are running up against the wall of mature technology. Yes, some small improvements can be made in aerodynamics, and perhaps slightly larger ones in propulsion technology, but as a percentage of improvement, you won't see the differences you saw with the introduction of pressurized cabins, or jet engines, or turbofan engines, etc.

The next generation of narrow-body aircraft will still fly at Mach .80, will still seat around 125 -175 passengers, and will still seem essentially the same as today's 737's to 99% of the flying population. Now, if you were the CEO of Boeing, would you invest several billion dollars to create a new aircraft that does things 99% the same way as your current (profitable) aircraft does? If you were the CEO of an airline, would you want to pay $45M for a tried and proven aircraft, or $65M for one that does exactly the same job as the one that costs 1/3 less? How long would it take for a 5% fuel savings of advanced engines and aerodynamics to pay for the extra $20M per aircraft they would cost? Do you see any major airframe manufacturer jumping at the chance to spend those uncounted billions in order to 'maybe' usurp Boeing's lead and take 'their piece of the pie'? Not me.

An awful lot of people here want to see Boeing jump feet first into designing a 737 replacement. But I think you may have to get used to the fact that the cost of doing so outweighs any small benefit to the manufacturer or the customers.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineJayspilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9150 times:

Using the Winglet addition as a cost basis for fuel savings and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the winglet on the 737 save 3% in fuel and take about 18 months to pay for itself at current prices costing about 1 million per set?

25 Dw747400 : Excellent point. I have no doubt that a clean-sheet design from Boeing could beat the performance and operating costs of the 737 or A320 family in mo
26 HAL : I think it actually takes longer, but using those numbers, if you had a 3% fuel savings with a new-generation aircraft, an extra $20M in cost for the
27 Odwyerpw : HAL, couple of nice posts there. that's why i think we will still see evolutionary changes for another 12 years (then let it be between 2022 - 2025...
28 RoseFlyer : There are a lot of parts that have not rolled part numbers. For example the steering tiller just saw its first part number roll since 1962. While at
29 KGAIflyer : " target=_blank>http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2...rior/ Wow! Some interesting reader-responses on this link. Otherwise, it looks like wider seat
30 Manfredj : The 767 has come and will eventually be replaced by 787. Seeing that the 767 was originally conceived well after the 737-100, one must ask....why rep
31 EA772LR : But that's not entirely fair. The gap in performance between the A330 and 767 was far wider than the evenness of the A320737 platforms. Plus the 737N
32 FrmrCAPCADET : 737/320 line, are optimized for relatively short flights. There are current opportunities for efficiencies on long flights which do not come into pla
33 Planemaker : I think that there will be several improvements as the avionics & systems architecture will more than likely benefit from an upgrade. I would expect
34 Parapente : Much as I like the new interior it seems very much at odds with the new requirements of the all powerful LCC's.They are taking air transport (profitab
35 Ruscoe : Yes but a problem may arise in the ability of the manufacturer to produce frames quickly enough to take advantage of the improved saleability of thei
36 Tdscanuck : You lost me. The new interior has pivot bins that hold more than the bins in the current interior. More head room, more luggage space...why would the
37 HAWK21M : Not sure the A319/20/21 series would agree on popularity,But def a very Mx friendly aircraft. The B737NG stopped the B757 run. regds MEL.
38 Parapente : More overhead luggage space,more (overhead) head room,same fuse...Hmmmm I must be missing something here -perhaps I am. Its more of a general narrow b
39 Astuteman : It's lighter because it's smaller, I would have thought... smaller fuselage, smaller engines, smaller landing gear...... Because the A330 stopped the
40 Roseflyer : Yes it is smaller, but a 737-800 can usually fit a few more seats in which can give it higher capacity. It also has a touch more rance. So while smal
41 Aesma : But the wings are not the same, the tail is not the same, the engines are not the same, the length is not the same, the cockpit is not the same... It
42 474218 : I think you should go back and read what I said in Reply 14?[Edited 2009-11-14 08:18:17]
43 Aesma : Hmm, sorry, I'm learning this new forum ! The quoting system is quite strange but now I got it, I think. The quote with the correct poster :
44 Post contains links Tdscanuck : Yes. You're missing how pivot bins work. No. That's the entire point of pivot bins. The current conventional bins are straight horizontal...their flo
45 Post contains images RoseFlyer : You are looking at it from the outside, but not the inside. The outside of the tail is not the same, but the inside often is carryover. The most expe
46 Planemaker : Don't forget that there is also the space under the seat in front of you. And given that not everyone brings a full size suitcase, there is a good ch
47 Parapente : Thanks for the link Tom.Very interesting.Indeed the 774 pivot bins look very the new 737 ones. I did also notice though that the company offered a 200
48 ADent : How is the 737 holding up to the A320? Seeing the 737 leave the fleets of UA, LH, NZ, USAir, F9 seems like 737 is loosing its edge? Or am I missing a
49 Parapente : Re ADent above.See news on A320 winglets.If as you suggest the tide has been turning against the 737 (I have no idea) - then its going to turn into a
50 EPA001 : And combined with the improved MTOW upgrade Airbus has offered, the A320 is outperforming the B737-NG. But will cause a landslide in new orders? No,
51 LTBEWR : To me what will really change the market for the 737 and A320 series aircraft will be the costs of fuel in the future and the expected development of
52 Tdscanuck : Most of those replacements are 737-Classics (-300/400/500) going to A32x. Changes from 737NG to A32x are very rare (as are the other direction). I th
53 Aesma : I never said it was totally different, I just think that putting all 737 versions in the same bag and telling it's A very successful airplane since t
54 Aesma : It's still switching, isn't it ? Coming from the 737 classic, the obvious choice is the 737NG. Of course, things like the state of the airline fleet
55 PPVRA : I wonder what Embraer is thinking right now with this development. . . they have stated that they are looking into this segment. . .
56 XT6Wagon : most "switched" when the 737NG wasn't even on the design boards.
57 Planemaker : While they are "looking" at the segment, they are "designing" a stretch to the E195 to contest the CS130 market niche. Whether it goes into productio
58 VirginFlyer : I wonder what the chances are of the 737 hitting 10,000 frames. As of the end of October, the 737 order book stood at 8300, of which 6199 had been del
59 Tdscanuck : Run the orders report for all customers and look for "Integrated Defense Systems", "United States Navy", and "United States Air Force" Tom.
60 Lightsaber : Engines. In particular, the compressor rotors. It is my understanding the 737NG is half way between the classic wing and a supercritical wing. So the
61 Ckfred : At what point do the airlines start saying that they want a new plane that is substantially better than the 737NG in terms of fuel consumption and mai
62 Stitch : They're saying it now, but if wishes were horses... JL, for example, have stated they want the 737 replacement to be 50% more efficient than the 737N
63 HAL : Seriously? What do the Chinese or Japanese engineers know about aeronautical engineering that Boeing or Airbus don't? Is there some secret formula th
64 Planemaker : Even if the CSeries is a commercial success (i.e. the program doesn't lose money), it will nevertheless still be small potatoes in relative terms to
65 ODwyerPW : Pretty good thread. appreciate some of the really well thoughout proofs. Too bad the info from this can't be combined with the 737-evolve thread. I gu
66 Planemaker : The thing to remember is that there has been a fairly constant evolution of even minor details that add up and that continue to make the 737 very for
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