Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta Suspends NRT - Ho Chi Minh City  
User currently offlineCokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9585 times:

This didn't last long. I am glad they are reacting quickly to unprofitable
routes. Eff Mar 27, 2010

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Not surprising with Vietnam Airlines joining ST.

User currently offlinePlanenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9527 times:

It was always interesting to see that DL 757 parked between an EVA Air 777 and Qatar A330.
Always looked so small. I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route, especially with UA and their 744 taking up half the apron.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9087 times:



Quoting Planenutz (Reply 2):
I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route, especially with UA and their 744 taking up half the apron.

NRT-SGN was a good experiment for DL. While not being allowed to carry any local traffic, I guess DL thought the connecting traffic would be sufficient. With flights from JFK, DTW, ATL, MSP, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and HNL... one would have thought the flight could have survived. I guess not  Sad

Quoting CokePopper (Thread starter):
I am glad they are reacting quickly to unprofitable
routes.

To play devil's advocate, they hardly gave it any time to become profitable...


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1764 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9032 times:



Quoting Planenutz (Reply 2):
I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route

I'm sure they never did, it was very short lived. I would imagine it was difficult to differentiate themselves in the SGN market since there are a plethora of other one-stop options to the USA, but they were at a severe disadvantage since they would be the only carrier who couldn't market their stop as a destination as well.

Did anyone ever see advertisements for DL in Vietnam? I'm curious what their angle would have been since they didn't really have a particular city in the USA to advertise (unless they, in fact, advertised themselves as one-stop service to all of LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SLC, MSP, ATL, DTW, and JFK). It would be an uphill battle even against UA, as they are fairly well established with one-stop USA service and (I would imagine) known to serve both SFO and ORD.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8965 times:

Interesting.
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3768 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8942 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.

Not to mention the Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.



PHX based
User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8701 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.

AFAIK, Delta also codeshared on CI's TPE-SGN flights (I'm not sure); the SFO-TPE flight had a good amount of people transiting to Vietnam (DL and VN codeshare on CI's TPAC flights). I don't know if they were on DL's or CI's or VN's code, but that could've been a factor for DL's less traffic.



This is my signature.
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8315 times:



Quoting 777STL (Reply 6):
Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.

That reminds me of Grand Torino! A great movie if I do say so myself.

As for NRT-SGN, I imagine the route probably needed to carry local traffic to make it - UA can carry local pax from HKG to SGN and back in addition to those connecting from the U.S. I wonder if a NGO/KIX-SGN might have been more successful, assuming they could carry local traffic on those sectors (I think I remember hearing that the bilateral allowed full rights through any city other than Tokyo?).



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8299 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 8):
(I think I remember hearing that the bilateral allowed full rights through any city other than Tokyo?).

It did, IIRC (VN has traffic rights on LAX-NGO). The trouble, though, is they lose all the NRT feed if they do that. They can have either feed or local Japan-Vietnam traffic but not both.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineVietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8233 times:



Quoting Steex (Reply 4):
Did anyone ever see advertisements for DL in Vietnam? I'm curious what their angle would have been since they didn't really have a particular city in the USA to advertise (unless they, in fact, advertised themselves as one-stop service to all of LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SLC, MSP, ATL, DTW, and JFK).

Yeah, the DL ads in Vietnam did mention about connect to many city in US, but do not advertise any thing about products or foods...etc.

As I believe, VN local/ and VN oversea in the US usually still look for Asian carriers.


User currently offlineCyberual From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8027 times:

tickets were like $600ish not too long ago lax-sgn. I guess yield is not that good either. Plus the food and service are better on Asian carriers like BR, CI, KE, OZ .

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4417 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7810 times:

Star Alliance carries the day yet again!!!!


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1295 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7687 times:

Its quite interesting to read certain posts about this route in another thread. DL had so much potential and wouldn't have any problem competing with the established players in Vietnam, not with DL feed etc etc etc
Some fanboys have yet again shown their difficulty in analysing anything that has to do with Delta. In short, a big egg on their faces.
Hopefully they will learn their lessons and stop their tiring overestimations of anything that has to do with DL.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7691 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 12):
Star Alliance carries the day yet again!!!!

How exactly? The problems that DL had with this route seem to have been lower yield VFR traffic and an inability to carry any local traffic. Very little of it had to do with Star especially given the fact that many of the airlines that cater to the largest numbers of US-SGN travelers are either unalligned or in alliances other than Star.

[Edited 2009-11-12 21:30:21]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7570 times:



Quoting Vietsky (Reply 10):
Yeah, the DL ads in Vietnam did mention about connect to many city in US, but do not advertise any thing about products or foods...etc.

Foods sounds like a potentially captivating way to try and advertise a number of US cities at once. I believe that from overseas many of the regions of the US don't appear distinctively different. I imagine a magazine spread that shows food from each city DL connects to NRT would be something anyone could relate to, and could be used to pique interest in the carrier more directly than a list of airports or a map or pictures of skylines.

Two ideas off the top of my head are: to focus on differences, a highlight dish from each city (say, salmon from SEA and soul food from DTW and Southern barbeque from ATL), or, to present on variations on a theme, a hamburger from each city from a famous venue there (say Tommy's or In 'N' Out from LAX, The Varsity from ATL, Dick's Drive In near SEA?) A Cincinnati chili burger would be a way to present CVG; note that a mild chili burger is the signature menu item for the 1000+ outlet MOS Burger chain in Japan.


User currently offlineVietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7377 times:



Quoting BOSSAN (Reply 15):
Two ideas off the top of my head are: to focus on differences, a highlight dish from each city (say, salmon from SEA and soul food from DTW and Southern barbeque from ATL), or, to present on variations on a theme, a hamburger from each city from a famous venue there (say Tommy's or In 'N' Out from LAX, The Varsity from ATL, Dick's Drive In near SEA?) A Cincinnati chili burger would be a way to present CVG; note that a mild chili burger is the signature menu item for the 1000+ outlet MOS Burger chain in Japan.

haha... sounds such a nice idea. But what i am talking regarding products or foods is actually the service of an airlines.

Such as Koran Airlines which advertise in Vietnam, besides the map of US destinations (connect from Korea), they do focus on Hard Product such as their SEATS, and MEALS.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6939 times:

SGN is a very low yielding market - primarily VFR traffic from the US, with some leisure and business pax thrown in the mix.

Other Asian carriers (BR, CI, and KE/OZ especially) have marketed well to this base for years and their lower cost structure makes it profitable. The service is also better in premium and economy classes on all of the above carriers. DL has a higher cost structure and an inferior service - doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this didn't work. It also doesn't help that DL poorly marketed the service within Vietnam (and the US for that matter).

NW managed to hang on to a wide variety of destinations in Asia with their NRT hub and strong presence throughout Asia. It will be interesting to see how successful DL will be in attempting to further penetrate Asia directly from the US. Asian carriers are known for their fantastic service, are well known within the Asian and VFR communities, have lower costs, and with global alliances, offer the same benefits that you would get flying on a US legacy.


User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6847 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
DL has a higher cost structure and an inferior service - doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this didn't work.

And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineScorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6249 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?

The UA flights to SGN use the newly configured 744's with an excellent hard product and the local HKG crews.

I took the flight DTW-ORD-HKG-SGN a few months ago in C and was very impressed with the experience.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6139 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 12):
Star Alliance carries the day yet again!!!!

Dude, chill out. UA doesnt operate NRT-SGN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Interesting.
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.

The problem with US-Vietnam traffic is that its virtually all low yielding VFR and no business traffic. You can take the largest VFR markets to Vietnam (Orange County, San Jose, Houston, Dallas, Washington DC, and Seattle in that order) and probably still couldnt find a way to fill the planes profitably. A flight from NRT on an American carrier or a flight from the states will still struggle.

[Edited 2009-11-13 06:01:11]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6110 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?

I think UA has held its own given its strong position in the Asian market (and also in the west coast gateways of LAX/SFO), because the back of the bus in the 744 is bigger and can better match capacity with demand by class, and because UA has been in the market longer and has been willing to invest in the market long-term. DL seems to think they can enter new markets, especially developing markets, with no advertising or local presence on the ground and succeed immediately. We've seen this in Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, and Latin America. Vietnam seems to be the kind of market where its worth sticking it out given the annual increases in the economy.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5779 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN?

I'm not sure UA is so much "holding its own" as "holding on". UA is probably just losing less because it's a shorter stage length and they can sell the local segment.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
The problems that DL had with this route seem to have been lower yield VFR traffic and an inability to carry any local traffic

It's mostly the former; the latter wouldn't have fixed the route. BKK probably looks more or less the same. It's just another reason why DL is fighting for JL.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7691 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5630 times:



Quoting CokePopper (Thread starter):
This didn't last long. I am glad they are reacting quickly to unprofitable
routes. Eff Mar 27, 2010

There's going to be more. In a recent press release they listed all their new international services and the number of NRT departures for this Summer. If you added the new stuff to the existing total it was 4 RTs too many. This must be one of the things to go, but there appear to be 3 more.


User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 753 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5395 times:



Quoting 777STL (Reply 6):
Not to mention the Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.

Precisely. I lived in the upper midwest for several years and there is indeed a relatively large Hmong presence up there. I was therefore expecting NRT-SGN to do well for DL/NW bolstered by the daily MSP-NRT flight.



Jack @ AUS
25 Lawair : I think with regard to BKK-US traffic, this is probably true (predominantly VFR). But I think it makes a big difference that DL has local traffic on
26 LAXdude1023 : The Hmongs in Minneapolis arent really from Vietnam. They mostly come from Laos and a few from Thailand.
27 Western727 : Cambodia as well. You're right; they aren't technically from Vietnam; this is what intrigues me about the Hmong people - the fact that they're nomadi
28 Panamair : Not necessarily. I dont' think it's that straightforward - The press release said that next summer, Delta will have "Delta will offer Narita customer
29 LAXdude1023 : Youre right. The Hmongs are a facinating group of people. They are nomads. My fiance who is from Thailand says they are like Gypsys. Hmongs are looke
30 Western727 : No wonder I had never heard of them while growing up in Seattle which has a large Asian community. Further, YVR (where my wife is from) has a HUGE As
31 MaverickM11 : If you ever use an ATM in an area with a large Hmong population the language options are usually English, Spanish, and Hmoob. DL does get local traff
32 HSVflier : i have flown the BKK-NRT flight on both UA and DL, the service was night and day better on DL. Additionaly the flights were both very full in fact th
33 Lawair : It's probably more for the businesses on the Japanese end. I couldn't explain who's loyal to whom, but considering that NW had significant operations
34 DLPhoenix : IMHO DL started the route hoping to take advantage of niche business markets where they had an edge over UA and the Asian airlines. Some examples wher
35 AznCSA4QF744ER : Full flight doesn't mean they are making money. This was the same issue UA had on its LAX-HKG-SGN route. I believe they travel in J due to upgrade. S
36 Vietcolin : Actually DL time schedule doesn't differentiate them self. Among the US carriers operate in SGN, UA arrives around 10PM ex HKG and DL arrives around
37 MaverickM11 : No that's the problem, DL gets almost zilch in terms of high yield local traffic for a multitude of reasons but primarily their schedule and network
38 Lawair : Did DL dismantle most of NW's NRT network? (I'm not up-to-date on that myself.) I'm going to defer to you on whether high yielding passenger traffic
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
UAL Flight To Ho Chi Minh Starting Today? posted Thu Dec 16 2004 04:22:41 by Airbus3801
Ho Chi Minh City But Still SGN? posted Sat Dec 11 2004 08:59:26 by Dahawaiian
Transaero To Add Kuala Lumpur And Ho Chi Mihn City posted Thu Dec 28 2006 01:46:12 by Kevin
MD80 S7-ASK In Ho Chi Mihn. posted Mon Nov 18 2002 11:55:34 by Cx flyboy
NW Suspends JFK-NRT posted Wed Sep 7 2005 23:09:29 by BigGSFO
AF CDG-NRT 12:30 Hours Or 14:30 Hours? posted Sat Nov 7 2009 11:05:46 by SQ773
AirAsiaX Suspends KUL-TSN (Tianjin) posted Thu Nov 5 2009 15:47:58 by Flybeq400
QF Suspends Pilots For Not Lowering Gear posted Wed Nov 4 2009 06:33:26 by Hawaiian763
JL Introduces 777-300ER On NRT-ORD And NRT-LAX posted Wed Oct 28 2009 02:36:17 by Tradewinds
Etihad Airways To Start AUH - NRT/NGO posted Mon Oct 26 2009 16:30:41 by Ojas