Planenutz From United States, joined Dec 1999, 1189 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7002 times:
It was always interesting to see that DL 757 parked between an EVA Air 777 and Qatar A330.
Always looked so small. I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route, especially with UA and their 744 taking up half the apron.
Transpac787 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 16 Reply 3, posted (3 weeks 2 days 16 hours 19 minutes ago) and read 6562 times:
Quoting Planenutz (Reply 2): I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route, especially with UA and their 744 taking up half the apron.
NRT-SGN was a good experiment for DL. While not being allowed to carry any local traffic, I guess DL thought the connecting traffic would be sufficient. With flights from JFK, DTW, ATL, MSP, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and HNL... one would have thought the flight could have survived. I guess not
Quoting CokePopper (Thread starter): I am glad they are reacting quickly to unprofitable
routes.
To play devil's advocate, they hardly gave it any time to become profitable...
Steex From United States, joined Jun 2007, 468 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (3 weeks 2 days 16 hours 11 minutes ago) and read 6507 times:
Quoting Planenutz (Reply 2): I'm surprided they were able to ever turn a profit on this route
I'm sure they never did, it was very short lived. I would imagine it was difficult to differentiate themselves in the SGN market since there are a plethora of other one-stop options to the USA, but they were at a severe disadvantage since they would be the only carrier who couldn't market their stop as a destination as well.
Did anyone ever see advertisements for DL in Vietnam? I'm curious what their angle would have been since they didn't really have a particular city in the USA to advertise (unless they, in fact, advertised themselves as one-stop service to all of LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SLC, MSP, ATL, DTW, and JFK). It would be an uphill battle even against UA, as they are fairly well established with one-stop USA service and (I would imagine) known to serve both SFO and ORD.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12161 posts, RR: 22 Reply 5, posted (3 weeks 2 days 16 hours 5 minutes ago) and read 6440 times:
Interesting.
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
777STL From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2342 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (3 weeks 2 days 16 hours 3 minutes ago) and read 6417 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.
Not to mention the Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.
Anonms From United States, joined Dec 2007, 382 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 weeks 2 days 15 hours 3 minutes ago) and read 6176 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.
AFAIK, Delta also codeshared on CI's TPE-SGN flights (I'm not sure); the SFO-TPE flight had a good amount of people transiting to Vietnam (DL and VN codeshare on CI's TPAC flights). I don't know if they were on DL's or CI's or VN's code, but that could've been a factor for DL's less traffic.
SurfandSnow From United States, joined Jan 2009, 667 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 weeks 2 days 12 hours 17 minutes ago) and read 5790 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 6): Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.
That reminds me of Grand Torino! A great movie if I do say so myself.
As for NRT-SGN, I imagine the route probably needed to carry local traffic to make it - UA can carry local pax from HKG to SGN and back in addition to those connecting from the U.S. I wonder if a NGO/KIX-SGN might have been more successful, assuming they could carry local traffic on those sectors (I think I remember hearing that the bilateral allowed full rights through any city other than Tokyo?).
Cubsrule From United States, joined May 2004, 13605 posts, RR: 14 Reply 9, posted (3 weeks 2 days 12 hours 13 minutes ago) and read 5774 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 8): (I think I remember hearing that the bilateral allowed full rights through any city other than Tokyo?).
It did, IIRC (VN has traffic rights on LAX-NGO). The trouble, though, is they lose all the NRT feed if they do that. They can have either feed or local Japan-Vietnam traffic but not both.
Vietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 weeks 2 days 12 hours 2 minutes ago) and read 5708 times:
Quoting Steex (Reply 4): Did anyone ever see advertisements for DL in Vietnam? I'm curious what their angle would have been since they didn't really have a particular city in the USA to advertise (unless they, in fact, advertised themselves as one-stop service to all of LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, SLC, MSP, ATL, DTW, and JFK).
Yeah, the DL ads in Vietnam did mention about connect to many city in US, but do not advertise any thing about products or foods...etc.
As I believe, VN local/ and VN oversea in the US usually still look for Asian carriers.
Cyberual From United States, joined Dec 1999, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 weeks 2 days 10 hours 58 minutes ago) and read 5502 times:
tickets were like $600ish not too long ago lax-sgn. I guess yield is not that good either. Plus the food and service are better on Asian carriers like BR, CI, KE, OZ .
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 552 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 weeks 2 days 9 hours 18 minutes ago) and read 5162 times:
Its quite interesting to read certain posts about this route in another thread. DL had so much potential and wouldn't have any problem competing with the established players in Vietnam, not with DL feed etc etc etc
Some fanboys have yet again shown their difficulty in analysing anything that has to do with Delta. In short, a big egg on their faces.
Hopefully they will learn their lessons and stop their tiring overestimations of anything that has to do with DL.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care. Millwall against the world!
OA412 From United States, joined Dec 2000, 2190 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (3 weeks 2 days 9 hours 17 minutes ago) and read 5166 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 12): Star Alliance carries the day yet again!!!!
How exactly? The problems that DL had with this route seem to have been lower yield VFR traffic and an inability to carry any local traffic. Very little of it had to do with Star especially given the fact that many of the airlines that cater to the largest numbers of US-SGN travelers are either unalligned or in alliances other than Star.
BOSSAN From United States, joined Aug 2004, 223 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 weeks 2 days 8 hours 25 minutes ago) and read 5045 times:
Quoting Vietsky (Reply 10): Yeah, the DL ads in Vietnam did mention about connect to many city in US, but do not advertise any thing about products or foods...etc.
Foods sounds like a potentially captivating way to try and advertise a number of US cities at once. I believe that from overseas many of the regions of the US don't appear distinctively different. I imagine a magazine spread that shows food from each city DL connects to NRT would be something anyone could relate to, and could be used to pique interest in the carrier more directly than a list of airports or a map or pictures of skylines.
Two ideas off the top of my head are: to focus on differences, a highlight dish from each city (say, salmon from SEA and soul food from DTW and Southern barbeque from ATL), or, to present on variations on a theme, a hamburger from each city from a famous venue there (say Tommy's or In 'N' Out from LAX, The Varsity from ATL, Dick's Drive In near SEA?) A Cincinnati chili burger would be a way to present CVG; note that a mild chili burger is the signature menu item for the 1000+ outlet MOS Burger chain in Japan.
Vietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 weeks 2 days 6 hours 56 minutes ago) and read 4852 times:
Quoting BOSSAN (Reply 15): Two ideas off the top of my head are: to focus on differences, a highlight dish from each city (say, salmon from SEA and soul food from DTW and Southern barbeque from ATL), or, to present on variations on a theme, a hamburger from each city from a famous venue there (say Tommy's or In 'N' Out from LAX, The Varsity from ATL, Dick's Drive In near SEA?) A Cincinnati chili burger would be a way to present CVG; note that a mild chili burger is the signature menu item for the 1000+ outlet MOS Burger chain in Japan.
haha... sounds such a nice idea. But what i am talking regarding products or foods is actually the service of an airlines.
Such as Koran Airlines which advertise in Vietnam, besides the map of US destinations (connect from Korea), they do focus on Hard Product such as their SEATS, and MEALS.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2538 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (3 weeks 2 days 3 hours 54 minutes ago) and read 4414 times:
SGN is a very low yielding market - primarily VFR traffic from the US, with some leisure and business pax thrown in the mix.
Other Asian carriers (BR, CI, and KE/OZ especially) have marketed well to this base for years and their lower cost structure makes it profitable. The service is also better in premium and economy classes on all of the above carriers. DL has a higher cost structure and an inferior service - doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this didn't work. It also doesn't help that DL poorly marketed the service within Vietnam (and the US for that matter).
NW managed to hang on to a wide variety of destinations in Asia with their NRT hub and strong presence throughout Asia. It will be interesting to see how successful DL will be in attempting to further penetrate Asia directly from the US. Asian carriers are known for their fantastic service, are well known within the Asian and VFR communities, have lower costs, and with global alliances, offer the same benefits that you would get flying on a US legacy.
OA412 From United States, joined Dec 2000, 2190 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (3 weeks 2 days 3 hours 16 minutes ago) and read 4322 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17): DL has a higher cost structure and an inferior service - doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this didn't work.
And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?
Scorpy From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3724 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 18): And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?
The UA flights to SGN use the newly configured 744's with an excellent hard product and the local HKG crews.
I took the flight DTW-ORD-HKG-SGN a few months ago in C and was very impressed with the experience.
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 4420 posts, RR: 22 Reply 20, posted (3 weeks 2 days 43 minutes ago) and read 3614 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 12): Star Alliance carries the day yet again!!!!
Dude, chill out. UA doesnt operate NRT-SGN.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): Interesting.
I know Delta has been trying hard to foster traffic from the Vietnamese travel community in Los Angeles. Guess it was not enough, or frankly probably quite low yielding anyhow. Seems carriers like BR, CI, CX and UA are the long established popular ones.
The problem with US-Vietnam traffic is that its virtually all low yielding VFR and no business traffic. You can take the largest VFR markets to Vietnam (Orange County, San Jose, Houston, Dallas, Washington DC, and Seattle in that order) and probably still couldnt find a way to fill the planes profitably. A flight from NRT on an American carrier or a flight from the states will still struggle.
Rwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2538 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (3 weeks 2 days 38 minutes ago) and read 3585 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 18): And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN? After all, UAs service isn't exactly anything to write home about. Could it be that cabin service isn't exactly the make or break factor you're making it out to be?
I think UA has held its own given its strong position in the Asian market (and also in the west coast gateways of LAX/SFO), because the back of the bus in the 744 is bigger and can better match capacity with demand by class, and because UA has been in the market longer and has been willing to invest in the market long-term. DL seems to think they can enter new markets, especially developing markets, with no advertising or local presence on the ground and succeed immediately. We've seen this in Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, and Latin America. Vietnam seems to be the kind of market where its worth sticking it out given the annual increases in the economy.
MaverickM11 From United States, joined Apr 2000, 11939 posts, RR: 51 Reply 22, posted (3 weeks 1 day 23 hours 46 minutes ago) and read 3254 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 18): And how do you explain UA's ability to hold its own in SGN?
I'm not sure UA is so much "holding its own" as "holding on". UA is probably just losing less because it's a shorter stage length and they can sell the local segment.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 14): The problems that DL had with this route seem to have been lower yield VFR traffic and an inability to carry any local traffic
It's mostly the former; the latter wouldn't have fixed the route. BKK probably looks more or less the same. It's just another reason why DL is fighting for JL.
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 2239 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (3 weeks 1 day 23 hours 28 minutes ago) and read 3105 times:
Quoting CokePopper (Thread starter): This didn't last long. I am glad they are reacting quickly to unprofitable
routes. Eff Mar 27, 2010
There's going to be more. In a recent press release they listed all their new international services and the number of NRT departures for this Summer. If you added the new stuff to the existing total it was 4 RTs too many. This must be one of the things to go, but there appear to be 3 more.
Western727 From United States, joined Jan 2007, 219 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (3 weeks 1 day 22 hours 49 minutes ago) and read 2870 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 6): Not to mention the Hmong ethnic group in the upper midwest.
Precisely. I lived in the upper midwest for several years and there is indeed a relatively large Hmong presence up there. I was therefore expecting NRT-SGN to do well for DL/NW bolstered by the daily MSP-NRT flight.
Lawair From United States, joined Jan 2009, 34 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (3 weeks 1 day 22 hours 40 minutes ago) and read 2808 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
The problems that DL had with this route seem to have been lower yield VFR traffic and an inability to carry any local traffic
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
It's mostly the former; the latter wouldn't have fixed the route. BKK probably looks more or less the same. It's just another reason why DL is fighting for JL.
I think with regard to BKK-US traffic, this is probably true (predominantly VFR). But I think it makes a big difference that DL has local traffic on the BKK-NRT route primarily because there's significantly more business traffic (and VFR) between BKK and NRT than between BKK and the US. (Whether DL is carrying the higher yielding passengers following its takeover of NW is another matter that I couldn't answer.) DL is using 332s on the route, and UA is flying 744s on NRT-BKK at the same time. I think there are 9 daily NRT-BKK flights in total, all on nothing smaller than NH's 763s. The route is really a mix of 777s and 744s. That should contrast with NRT-SGN pretty starkly.
26 LAXdude1023: The Hmongs in Minneapolis arent really from Vietnam. They mostly come from Laos and a few from Thailand.
27 Western727: Cambodia as well. You're right; they aren't technically from Vietnam; this is what intrigues me about the Hmong people - the fact that they're nomadi
28 Panamair: Not necessarily. I dont' think it's that straightforward - The press release said that next summer, Delta will have "Delta will offer Narita customer
29 LAXdude1023: Youre right. The Hmongs are a facinating group of people. They are nomads. My fiance who is from Thailand says they are like Gypsys. Hmongs are looke
30 Western727: No wonder I had never heard of them while growing up in Seattle which has a large Asian community. Further, YVR (where my wife is from) has a HUGE As
31 MaverickM11: If you ever use an ATM in an area with a large Hmong population the language options are usually English, Spanish, and Hmoob. DL does get local traff
32 HSVflier: i have flown the BKK-NRT flight on both UA and DL, the service was night and day better on DL. Additionaly the flights were both very full in fact th
33 Lawair: It's probably more for the businesses on the Japanese end. I couldn't explain who's loyal to whom, but considering that NW had significant operations
34 DLPhoenix: IMHO DL started the route hoping to take advantage of niche business markets where they had an edge over UA and the Asian airlines. Some examples wher
35 AznCSA4QF744ER: Full flight doesn't mean they are making money. This was the same issue UA had on its LAX-HKG-SGN route. I believe they travel in J due to upgrade. S
36 Vietcolin: Actually DL time schedule doesn't differentiate them self. Among the US carriers operate in SGN, UA arrives around 10PM ex HKG and DL arrives around
37 MaverickM11: No that's the problem, DL gets almost zilch in terms of high yield local traffic for a multitude of reasons but primarily their schedule and network
38 Lawair: Did DL dismantle most of NW's NRT network? (I'm not up-to-date on that myself.) I'm going to defer to you on whether high yielding passenger traffic
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