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AF New Offer For European Network  
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1832 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

AF gave a press conference this morning about the expected reorganization of their European product which is losing money at the moment. There were some rumors these last weeks saying that the short- and medium-haul product would be transformed in a low cost product but this was hopefully wrong and AF remains commited to offer a full service all-inclusive. As a whole, Personally, I think this is very good decision and offer by AF. The decrease of fares, including the full fares and the possibility to modify (for 50 €) all dicounted fares is very welcomed. Regarding cutting routes or frequencies, nothing is decided at the moment but some frequency reductions can be expected. All these changes will be introduced from april 1st, 2010.
For KLM, probably a similar offer but not before november 2010

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...ls-its-brand-new-european-service/
"Starting on 1st April 2010, Air France is offering a new service on its medium-haul network, aimed at better meeting the changing expectations of travellers seeking greater simplicity and clarity, and more affordable fares.

The essentials of the Air France service will remain, and the airline will continue to offer two clearly separate cabins, the "Voyageur" cabin and the "Premium" cabin. The Air France service will not be that of a low-cost carrier.

«Regarding short-haul travel, customer requirements have changed. They now want reliable, efficient air transport, with an appropriate service, at the lowest possible price, while retaining the «Air France touch». We designed our new medium-haul offering with this in mind», declared Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, Chief Executive Officer of Air France-KLM.

The Voyageur offering is designed for customers looking for a simple, inexpensive product, with all the essentials of the Air France service:

free carriage of hold baggage up to 23 kg, choice of seat at check-in, wide choice of newspapers, catering adapted to the flight time, and designated counters for customers requiring assistance.

When they make their reservation, customers can specify their preference for a window or aisle seat free of charge, and have their boarding pass sent to them by email.

For just 10 euros, Air France also proposes a «time to think», so that customers can keep their booking and the fare they have found for several days. Air France is the only airline to offer this service online.

Fares have been reduced and the simplified price range makes it easier to find the lowest price: the price displayed on the same web page combines the cheapest available fare for the outbound flight and the cheapest available fare for the return flight. Tickets are sold for round trips, but promotional fares are now available one-way. These tickets are not refundable but can be modified for an additional 50 euros.

The Premium offering is tailored to the requirements of business travellers seeking more flexibility, enhanced service, even greater efficiency and time-savings, at more affordable prices.

Premium customers have a choice between two products: the Premium Eco for those seeking flexibility and efficiency at the best prices and Premium Business for those who opt for more comfort and privacy.

In Premium Eco, the published fares are an average of 20% lower than the published fares for Tempo Challenge, and Premium Business fares are also lower than those of the current Affaires-Business Class.

All “Premium” tickets are available either round trip or one-way for all fares in the price range. They are can be refunded and modified free of charge.

Premium Business customers can choose their seat when they book their flight.

At the airport, all Premium customers benefit from a dedicated check-in area, dedicated security checkpoints, which are more numerous and faster at Paris-Charles de Gaulle and a priority boarding line. A dedicated Premium hotline is also at their disposal.

On board, they travel in a cabin at the front of the aircraft. The inflight catering has been upgraded both in presentation and content. Premium Business customers enjoy a wider seat, with no-one sitting next to them.

Furthermore, whatever class they are travelling in, all passengers continue to earn Flying Blue Miles, benefiting from a wide choice of destinations and flight frequencies thanks to the powerful Air France hub at Paris-Charles de Gaulle. They can use any of the Air France ticket offices downtown, Air France desks at the airport, call centers, and can be assisted by Air France staff at any time. They are taken care of by dedicated Air France departments such as the ROC (Reservations Operations Center), in the event of operating irregularities and malfunctions.

Air France also responds to the needs of customers with special needs via “Saphir”, a complimentary booking and information service reserved for disabled passengers and those with reduced mobility. There is also the “Family Service” designed for children travelling alone (UMs), which is free of charge on domestic flights. Every year Air France carries 400,000 Ums."

Video (duration 60 min) of the press conference at :
http://www.viewontv.com/airfrance/cp_121109/

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5041 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Thread starter):
There were some rumors these last weeks saying that the short- and medium-haul product would be transformed in a low cost product but this was hopefully wrong and AF remains commited to offer a full service all-inclusive

That's a big mistake. People dont need lounges or food and drinks onboard on short EU flights. Just the cheapest flight from A to B.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4828 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
That's a big mistake. People dont need lounges or food and drinks onboard on short EU flights. Just the cheapest flight from A to B.

That's your opinion and I respect it but many people disagree. What I found nice in the new AF offer is that they propose both a premium product for business pax and a cheap Y product but still all inclusive.


User currently offlineSkyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

I am so disappointed by this announcement...

First I read:

Quoting Goldorak (Thread starter):
«Regarding short-haul travel, customer requirements have changed.

then I read

Quoting Goldorak (Thread starter):
They now want reliable, efficient air transport, with an appropriate service, at the lowest possible price, while retaining the «Air France touch»

and I feel that they haven't understood anything that's going on in the air market recently,

Then I look at their study, on which they apparently based their strategy. They asked Flying Blue members to voice their opinion... and then I understand what went wrong. I am a Flying Blue member. I am therefore biased to AF as I am at least a bit loyal to them. I am more likely than anyone to be happy with the current service they're offering, otherwise, you could very well argue I wouldn't fly them and wouldn't be a FB member.

So when AF asks me, in a survey (which for the record, I didn't take, but i am assuming), if I feel it is necessary to get a free drink for a 90 mn flight, since I get that now and that's probably one of the reasons I fly AF, of course I am going to say "yes it's important to get a free drink for a 90 mn flight". 95% of the ppl said that. Of course !

What would have been interesting to survey (and they may have done but didn't talk about it in their PR file); ppl who used to fly AF and no longer do (in French research lingo, we call them "les abandonnistes"), and why they have stopped. They might have found that when ppl don't have luggage to check, they want to option of a cheaper ticket (like easyjet does) or that it doesn't matter if they don't get a free drink for a 90 mn flight if the fare is XX euros cheaper...

AF asked his own ppl to not have to change its model too much. If not pathetic, it's highly showing lack of vision.

And don't get me started on the "now we only have 2 classes, but in the Premium class, you have 2 different types of services, Premium Affaires and Premium Eco" which in essence means "we have 3 classes"... don't really see how that's improving anything but hey, I don't do marketing for AF, what do I know...

Rant over !  Smile
A.


User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3942 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4602 times:
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Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 3):
What would have been interesting to survey (and they may have done but didn't talk about it in their PR file); ppl who used to fly AF and no longer do

No matter what the industry, it's always useful to collect the opinion of former customers (and I am sure AF does it), but you also have to realize that sometimes the bridge between your product and your former customers' expectations is such that gaping it requires major changes to the product, with the very real risk that the changes might push away current customers.

AF seems to say their customers want all-inclusive no-surprise fares. How do you accomplish that while at the same time trying to meet the expectations of an easyJet crowd looking for discounted fares that do not include hold luggage and free drinks.

Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 3):
AF asked his own ppl to not have to change its model too much. If not pathetic, it's highly showing lack of vision.

AF would have been beyond stupid to not take into account the wishes of its existing customers. When they clash with potential new customers, a judgment call needs to be made. Will a change attract enough new customers to make up for the existing customers that will seek an alternative elsewhere ?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4575 times:



Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 3):
What would have been interesting to survey (and they may have done but didn't talk about it in their PR file); ppl who used to fly AF and no longer do (in French research lingo, we call them "les abandonnistes"), and why they have stopped. They might have found that when ppl don't have luggage to check, they want to option of a cheaper ticket (like easyjet does) or that it doesn't matter if they don't get a free drink for a 90 mn flight if the fare is XX euros cheaper...

I am a bit dissapointed too and can't agree more with you

To be honest I am an "abandonniste" myself: for years I was skyteam elite and agreed to pay more on short/medium haul.
Then I realized I could fly U2 and save around 50€ everytime, which is big when you fly often.

So yes I hate to have no seat assigned and the mess while boarding on U2 but learnt to swallow it thinking of the € I save

AF could have regained me as a customer if they decided to offer pax the opt in option for checked baggage like so many airlines nowadays.
It mechanically lowers the price of the ticket.
Like many other frequent short/medium pax I never have a bag to check in



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4444 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
That's a big mistake. People dont need lounges or food and drinks onboard on short EU flights. Just the cheapest flight from A to B.

As a generalist claim this if of course plain stupid.

There are many people indeed whose travel habits are such that they do not need this but look for price. So much is true

But there are many other people who are not price-sensitive and to whom the difference in comfort and service do make a big difference. Not only "feelgood"-wise, but also from a practical point of view. That is the so-called premium segment.

The trouble with AF is that they lost a big chunk of that premium segment because they cheaped down their product. They argued "you don't need real food and propoer lounges for short flights, so we reduce the money and effort on that" - but still charged high prices. People who had a choice left to other carriers, in Europe primarily to BA and the LH group for longhaul. Thus, AF lost its most lucrative segment.

They thought about going even further into the LCC direction. But I am convinced that they would not have succeeded. LCC means low *COST*, which includes reducing cost on things like food for the crews (they actually get quite lavish meals, while premium pax get fed crap), subsidies to the workers' council, and so on. The sense of entitlement of AF staff is monstruous, making any LCC strategy almost impossible to implement.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4322 times:

AF is simply introducing product differentiation into its pricing structure. They have identified that they don't want to be identified as a low fare carrier and so want to have some basic "freebies"included in the price while allowing passengers to choose the level of service they want - along w/ the price they are willing to pay.

Other large int'l network carriers have done the same thing. It is inevitable when network carriers must compete w/ low fare carriers.


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3808 times:



Quoting Mozart (Reply 6):

The trouble with AF is that they lost a big chunk of that premium segment because they cheaped down their product. They argued "you don't need real food and propoer lounges for short flights, so we reduce the money and effort on that" - but still charged high prices. People who had a choice left to other carriers, in Europe primarily to BA and the LH group for longhaul. Thus, AF lost its most lucrative segment.

That is exactly the point !

If you maintain (comaratively) high level fares but reduce amenities to LCC level then you can only loose against them !
On the long haul market it´s a bit different as you´re not fighting against LCC´s but still aginst other airlines with - very often - significantly lower labour expenses and a reduction in inflight service just drives passengers away if they get better service even for the same ticket price !!!



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3772 times:

The press release is lacking in actual facts, like what food, on what routes.

I am also assuming that Tempo Challenge is also being removed.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3675 times:

- How can you announce price reduction for the new product 6 months in advance?
- How can you expect that any price reduction wouldn't be immediately matched by competitors?
- How can you let the new business class product lose its biggest advantage - a cabin which is separated from ALL other cabins?
-
-


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3630 times:



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 9):
I am also assuming that Tempo Challenge is also being removed.

It's replaced by premium Eco

Quoting MOW (Reply 10):
- How can you announce price reduction for the new product 6 months in advance?

Why not ?

Quoting MOW (Reply 10):
- How can you let the new business class product lose its biggest advantage - a cabin which is separated from ALL other cabins?

In the case of European C class, I wouldn't say it's the biggest advantage. The biggest advantages IMO are dedicated check-in counters, security lanes, lounge acess, priority boarding and seating at the fron of the A/C for rapid disembarking


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3578 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 11):
It's replaced by premium Eco

with Y or C food?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3557 times:



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
with Y or C food?

It's not very clear at the moment but I understand from AF presentation that both premium (Y and C) may get the same food service (they say "modernized in terms of presentation and of what is served"


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3515 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 13):
modernized

Great word...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3499 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 11):
Why not ?

By doing that you just admit that you are clearly overpriced and ask people to continue buying your overpriced product for another 6 months.

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 11):
In the case of European C class, I wouldn't say it's the biggest advantage. The biggest advantages IMO are dedicated check-in counters, security lanes, lounge access, priority boarding and seating at the fron of the A/C for rapid disembarking

Well, IMO this all comes second - the primary airline product is what's onboard. Am I getting the best product the money can buy me? Does the airline make me feel distinguished enough? Not any longer. I am flying together with some folks who didn't even pay for their discounted corporate tickets - their companies did.

It's very difficult to get consistent quality product on the ground. Even in CDG the so called separate passport / security lanes can take quite some time to pass - it all depends on how well they are staffed. Separate lanes in some outposts are not even available.

Lounges might sound good, but in CDG 2E for example it is sometimes much quieter in public waiting areas than in the AF lounge in the basement.

Priority boarding is a joke feature in most European airports - regardless the service class / FFP status all passengers flock around the gate as soon as the boarding is announced. I'd rather wait until the dust settles and board the last.


User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3238 times:



Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 3):
What would have been interesting to survey (and they may have done but didn't talk about it in their PR file); ppl who used to fly AF and no longer do (in French research lingo, we call them "les abandonnistes"), and why they have stopped. They might have found that when ppl don't have luggage to check, they want to option of a cheaper ticket (like easyjet does) or that it doesn't matter if they don't get a free drink for a 90 mn flight if the fare is XX euros cheaper...

Thats what they needed to do. If you ask a loyal AF flier if they want to give up free drinks etc, they will obviously say no. They need to look at ex AF fliers, and what it takes to bring them back, as well as looking at competitors and seeing why they are loosing out so much.

I flew AF recently, and for the difference in the price of the ticket compared to other airlines, it was not worth it for a free drink and a muffin!


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3187 times:



Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 16):

COEI - you know its more than a free drink and a muffin - if thats all you believe that AF offers over and above Low Cost companies like Ryanair and Hybrid airlines then you know less about the industry than I thought.

Like the vast majority of carriers - the cost / value proposition has to be corrected - and if the only extra frill you see in AF is the muffin and juice then i recommend that you save your money and fly someone else.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

Well, it seems I am in the minority, but I think it is a good, sound plan; IF they implement it correctly and it is not just another way of saying we are cheapening the brand.

As has been discussed many times on this site, long haul are the bread-and-butter routes. That being said, people will shy away from your long haul product if they see that your short haul product is crap and does not have a redeeming feature. It may not happen quickly, but it will happen. The way to stop it is to make sure that people know that the "Air France" that they experienced on their flight from LAX-CDG is still there on the CDG-PRG sector, whether it was in business or eco (or now eco +).

Not everyone will jump ship to another carrier the second the fair goes up .03€, and honestly, I don't think it is wise to court those sorts of passengers from a long term perspective. I have talked to friends who used to fly AF and do not anymore because AF "cheapened the brand", i.e. they cut so many small service areas while keeping the same price that it was not worth the fare paid (both C and Y class). If AF wants to get pax like this back, they have to stop making "exterior" cuts to service, and instead focus on providing a slightly premium product for a competitive price, that makes people say "wow, that AF flight was much better than Ryanair", as opposed to saying "Why did I pay more for this again"


Lufthansa411



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2984 times:
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Is AF going to implement catering cuts on their European sectors like BA did? Or will they leave it the same or enhance it in the main cabin?

User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

If all flights can now be changed for 50 euros, what is the incentive for a business passengers to buy a more expensive ticket? He'll just buy the cheapest available ticket and change it for 50 euros when needed.

Bad product differentiation if you ask me: What business customers value most after price and schedule is flexibility. Best way to get the most money out of business passengers is charging the highest price for the right to be able to have all these features.


User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2907 times:



Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 16):


COEI - you know its more than a free drink and a muffin - if thats all you believe that AF offers over and above Low Cost companies like Ryanair and Hybrid airlines then you know less about the industry than I thought.

Like the vast majority of carriers - the cost / value proposition has to be corrected - and if the only extra frill you see in AF is the muffin and juice then i recommend that you save your money and fly someone else.

Well I only flew with them once and for a quick trip to CDG, so to me, it was expensive for what essentially was the same flight as EI etc, but with a muffin and free drinks. And to a lot of people, thats the only difference they see. Now, obviously they offer a lot more than just free drinks etc, but if theyre loosing money on europe, and cant compete with low cost carriers, they need to change


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2904 times:



Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 18):
The way to stop it is to make sure that people know that the "Air France" that they experienced on their flight from LAX-CDG is still there on the CDG-PRG sector, whether it was in business or eco (or now eco +).

Definitely agree with you. That's a tough situation anyway for AF and all other legacy airlines as these intra-European flights will always have a mix of Euro travelers (who may end up flying with U2 and FR if the added 'legacy touch' is no longer worth the extra fare) and long-haul connecting pax who expect a service somewhat consistent with what they are being offered on their long-haul segment. Who the airlines want to target in priority is up to them, but targeting the higher yields looks a smarter choice imho. Cheap travelers may be lost this way, but they bring substantially less revenue to the airline than business travalers.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineJouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2904 times:



Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 20):
If all flights can now be changed for 50 euros, what is the incentive for a business passengers to buy a more expensive ticket? He'll just buy the cheapest available ticket and change it for 50 euros when needed.

I guess this is the change fee, to which you must add the difference in price between the fare classes available at the time of booking and a the time of the change.


User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Hi,

As a flying blue Gold Member, I think AF still offers the best way to travel domestically in France while on business. I took easyJet (first time) some weeks ago --Cost saving, but without looking at the big picture, so pointless in that case--

The easyJet flight was a mess from the Check-in to the asked receipt for the checked bag (I did not made the reservation ...), and from the chaotic boarding to the bumpy departure.

The ticket was pretty expensive, around 260 euros where AirFrance was around 500 euros. Typical Full fare for this segment is around 650 euros with AirFrance for a 1 hour flight.

easyJet was truly the bad option. Had to fly CDG when my destination was 5 minutes around ORY. Had to flight the day before and return the day after, as easyJet schedule is optimized for Paris to province, not the opposite.

I flown this route several times on a full AF ticket in Y, which is more or less 650 euros. I love the flexibility, can change my flight all the time, no question, dedicate hot line, very efficient agents over the phone. At the airport, it's truly different. Rude staff. No way to board early because "it's a domestic flight, sorry" or "Sorry, you have to be Platinum for that". No way to check-in in ORY 2 hours ahead to leave the bag. Catering in the morning is a BIG joke with still frozen pastries, worst coffee ever. Domestic "Salon/patio" are also joke. CDG lounges are below average, and not on par with KLM, for example.

Flight departure is almost always slightly late, because late/longer turnaround seems to be a rule with AF.

Basically, where is the AF value? Flexibility. That's all. Value to money is bleak in that case.

I'm far from impressed with the new European offer. AF is obviously uncomfortable in the current market. The company can't find its place. AirFrance still run under a high cost structure, while shaving end user added value in order to cut it. Cost cutting in the back office must be quite sensitive  Smile

I leave the long haul aspect aside to stay on topic. That said, the shaving in value is even worst. Not to mention Flying Blue.

I still wish the best to AirFrance. it's overall a great company.

WCS



FLY SKYTEAM JETS
25 Skyhigh : Sorry to nitpick but Qantas also offers this service. They charge a deposit of $25 for International flights, which goes towards the final payment sh
26 Aerokiwi : God they're still hanging on to the no-one-way thing, bar the occasional promotion?! Pathetic. AF, Lufthansa, IB - dinosaur airlines that will resist
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