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New Zealand Aviation Thread #66  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12389 times:
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Welcome to Thread #66. Thread #65 only took 6 days to reach over 200 posts, so #65 has to be the fastest New Zealand Aviation Thread. In thread #65 New Zealand Aviation Thread #65 (by 777ER Nov 7 2009 in Civil Aviation) , we learnt and discussed:

- WLG-CBR possible traffic
- DJ is in the final stages of ordering upto 70x B738s/B739ERs and maybe more Ejets
- V Australia and their B777s
- SBs A320 away for MX and being replaced by a Czech A320
- What will NZs future hold
- Would an NZ Link adventure in the Pacific Islands work?
- Possible complications for NZ with the DJ/DL JV
- AKL-PER-LHR flights by NZ
- PacBlue introducing Y+ seats
- A GF A340 lands at WLG
- Japan and Chinese markets

Lets get Thread #66 underway

215 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12391 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

From Thread #65

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 201):

The announcement said "around 171 seats", so that doesn't mean it will have exactly 171 seats. I highly doubt NZ will remove Space+ as it woud loose its advantage for its FF passengers. If it did put in 171 seat as well as Space+ then NZ would quickly become THE WORST domestic airline in the worldvery quickly. Again, don't count on 171 seats


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12376 times:



Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
A GF A340 lands at WLG

I really hope someone gets a good photo of it departing. Something extraordinary similar to this would be one sight!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



There were reports that NZ put bigger planes into WLG for this weekend - Anyone have any clarity on this?



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineZKNEA From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12324 times:



Quoting NZ107 (Reply 2):
I really hope someone gets a good photo of it departing

My understanding is that it is either departing at 08:00 or 09:00 - not certain which of the two times it is though.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 2):
There were reports that NZ put bigger planes into WLG for this weekend

I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary today - perhaps tomorrow?


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12320 times:



Quoting ZKNEA (Reply 3):
My understanding is that it is either departing at 08:00 or 09:00 - not certain which of the two times it is though.

Right. Not in WLG anyway so it doesn't matter for me.

Quoting ZKNEA (Reply 3):
I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary today - perhaps tomorrow?

Just checked the NZ timetable and it shows a handful more 733s and one A320 tomorrow (don't know if that's a substitute or an actual schedule).



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12304 times:

Just noted that in Jul-Aug 2010 the frequencies of NZ's Tasman services ex ZQN is again increased compared with 2009:

ZQN-SYD 6x weekly
ZQN-BNE 4x weekly
ZQN-MEL 3x weekly

I think this is one extra flight per week for all three destinations compared with this year.

However, WLG-SYD is reduced to just 7x weekly, CHC-SYD down to 11 weekly, and ROT-SYD remains at 2x weekly. Has WLG-SYD ever before been down to the same frequency as WLG-BNE?



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

A number of LCCs have exit row add on for those who want the extra space, and the airline can earn a bit of money. Is it, by law, possible to have a jump seat add on, so the airline can earn another $50-100?

User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12188 times:



Quoting Cchan (Reply 6):
Is it, by law, possible to have a jump seat add on, so the airline can earn another $50-100?

If you're talking about cockpit jumpseat, no. Cabin crew jumpseats, I don't know of any regulation off the top of my head, but I'd suspect there would be some practicality issues around it.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12124 times:

On the last thread I was criticised for my assertion that a number of western airlines have sought to delay commencing or to suspend services to the People's Republic of China.

I'd just like to confirm that I have now researched this in depth, and that the following US airlines have applied to the DOT in the last 18 months to either delay commencing services to China, or to suspend them:

US Airways (PHL-PEK)
Continental (EWR-PVG, EWR-PEK)
Delta (ATL-PVG, SEA-PEK)
Northwest (DTW-PVG)
American Airlines (ORD-PEK)
United Airlines (SFO-CAN)

I've also used a well-known online tool to check Air New Zealand's loads to and from Beijing and Shanghai for every flight for the next four weeks. I should have realised earlier that because of the visa situation there are virtually no last minute changes except due to upgrades, so these loads can be considered definitive in terms of passenger revenue.

The way it works is like this:

For Business Premier, the maximum availability which can show in descending level of subclass is: C4 D4 Z4 J7.
(Sales of C4 D4 Z4 J3 would be quite alarming, but once the airline starts selling the more lucrative subclasses it is doing well, e.g. C4 D2 Z0 J0 would be a marginal but satisfactory performance, and C1 D0 Z0 J0 would be a successful outcome.)

For Premium Economy, the maximum availability which can show is U7 E7 O7 A7.
(Again, U7 E7 O7 A4 is a disaster, while U3 E0 O0 A0 is a success).

For Full Economy, the maximum availability which can show is Y7 M7 B7 H7.

Obviously in each class the lowest subclasses sell out first, for example for tonight's flight NZ2 LAX-LHR the availability is as follows:

C1 D0 Z0 J0
U1 E0 O0 A0

What this shows is that tonight's NZ2 LAX-AKL has 1 Business Class seat unsold and 1 Premium Economy seat unsold. The flight is a success: it is in profit even before a single Economy Class seat is sold, and every economy fare sold is pure profit.

In contrast, every single Air New Zealand flight I can find to or from Beijing or Shanghai for the next four weeks is showing as follows:

C4 D4 Z4 J7
U7 E7 O7 A7
Y7 M7 B7 H7

What this means for the airline is stark, and worrying.

Air New Zealand is not simply failing to sell Business Class seats to China, but it is not selling Premium Economy ones either. But the poisoned icing on the cake is that it isn't selling any Full Economy fares whatsoever either.

How can this be sustainable? Continental applies to postpone and reduce flights to Beijing and Shanghai from New York, Delta applies to do so from Atlanta and Seattle and American applies to do so from Chicago.

Yet Air New Zealand ploughs on flying from Auckland to the same two Chinese markets - actually increasing its services - with loads which we can see online are not so much low as non-existent in the subclasses which actually make an airline money. And we know that the claim that freight pays for these flights is impausible camouflage,

I've been flamed in the past for my suspicion that the murky nature of the FASCO opaque payments for cabin crew may conceal kickbacks or other hidden activity, even though its obvious that the airline no more needs to crew the aircraft on China services for Business Premier and Premium Economy than it does on its Beechcraft 1900D aircraft.

There's something really dodgy going on with these China routes. I'm not an investigative journalist, so I'm never going to get to the bottom of it, but someone should, because at the end of the day it's NZ taxpayers who are underwriting these ridiculous operations.

With LHR-LAX evidently selling well in the classes which matter, and Chinese services not, how on earth can the airline justify these flights when they now have the traffic rights to extend AKL-SFO to either LHR or MAN? Even the cost of an LHR slot pair would be more than offset by not carrying two premium cabins without revenue passengers in them.


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12101 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 8):
I'd just like to confirm that I have now researched this in depth, and that the following US airlines have applied to the DOT in the last 18 months to either delay commencing services to China, or to suspend them:

US Airways (PHL-PEK)
Continental (EWR-PVG, EWR-PEK)
Delta (ATL-PVG, SEA-PEK)
Northwest (DTW-PVG)
American Airlines (ORD-PEK)
United Airlines (SFO-CAN

Nice to see you actually researching something before posting. But you forget a little thing called context. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the world has suffered a bit of a blip in its economic growth in the past two years. Something along the lines of a collapse in premium traffic and yields in all classes along with freight springs to mind. All illustrated by the parking of freighters and the poor financial results of airlines overweighted in the premium class offering, like BA and SQ. Interestingly, a strategy you, Koruman, suggested Air NZ pursue not all that long ago, ie. replace economy seats with premium.

It's not surprising in the slightest that airlines, particularly US ones, would seek to postpone launch of these routes in the present climate. Some of these carriers have absolutely no current presence in China - and the US Airways one is more complex, as I stated earlier, in that it was part of a slot-swap with Delta.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 8):
What this shows is that tonight's NZ2 LAX-AKL has 1 Business Class seat unsold and 1 Premium Economy seat unsold. The flight is a success: it is in profit even before a single Economy Class seat is sold, and every economy fare sold is pure profit.

Weren't you saying in the last thread that Air NZ is failing to fill its planes over the Atlantic, partly because of the decline in Pacific Island stopover options?


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12031 times:



Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 9):
poor financial results of airlines overweighted in the premium class offering, like BA and SQ. Interestingly, a strategy you, Koruman, suggested Air NZ pursue not all that long ago, ie. replace economy seats with premium.

No, that is a comment which is not accurate at all, although it's often levelled at me.

Air New Zealand's old configuration on its Boeing 747 aircraft was 12 First, 64 Business, and worked fine.

I commented that it was absurd on the 777-200ER fleet, which was (and still is) being used on 747 replacement routes like AKL-HKG-LHR and AKL-LAX and AKL-SFO for the airline to have only 26 Business Premier seats, which is an increase of only two on the 763 number.

I specifically compared the two extremes of 77E utilisation: Air New Zealand with 26 Business Premier and 18 Premium Economy seats compared to 269 Economy and ANA with 70 Business and 36 Premium Economy seats compared to 111 Economy (or BA's 62/40/127).

My assertion, and I stick by it, was that Air New Zealand's 77E aircraft should have a BALANCED configuration of 36 Business Premier / 40 eight-abreast Premium Economy and 180 Economy seats.

In terms of the 77W, I argued that it must have the same premium seat count as the 744 it will replace, but NZ1 has already confirmed that that is already agreed policy..

It's true that airlines with an excessively premium heavy configuration such as SQ and BA have suffered, but I've never advocated that anyway.

What we now have is the opposite extreme: 77E aircraft which have so few premium seats (for the China market, which can't even 20% fill the paltry number that's fitted) that they are barely viable for flights to LAX, YVR and SFO.

I certainly see nothing in the recent recession to show that the airline couldn't sell 36 Business Premier and 40 Premium Economy seats to mature markets on the 77E. And even


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12016 times:



Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 9):
Weren't you saying in the last thread that Air NZ is failing to fill its planes over the Atlantic, partly because of the decline in Pacific Island stopover options?

It is my belief that the end of Pacific island connectivity has resulted in the loss of a significant number of passengers who used to fly NZ1/2 LHR-LAX. The airline has reduced Business/First class seat numbers on that sector from 76 daily until 2005 to 46 now.

My preference for Trans-Atlantic operations, which hasn't changed, is as follows:

Daily NZ1/2 AKL-LAX-LHR, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y
Daily NZ5/6 AKL-LAX-MAN, operated across the Pacific by a 77E and across the Atlantic by a 763 configured 24J / 46U / 153Y (the current configuration, but with Space Plus sold as Premium Economy which does better than lie-flat business from Manchester).
Daily NZ7/8 AKL-SFO-LHR, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y

These flights would feed in at LAX into a modern version of the old Pacific island network, as follows:

NZ XX AKL-NAN-LAX (3 x weekly, 763 configured as currently 24J / 46U / 153Y)
NZ XY AKL-RAR-PPT (daily A320) changing planes but not flight number when connecting as.....
NZ XY PPT-LAX (3x weekly, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y)
NZ XZ AKL-APW-LAX (2x weekly, 763 configured as above).

This model is almost certainly better utilisation of the 77E and 763 fleet than what currently happens.

Fiji and Tahiti immediately become viable destinations again for American and British visitors, with never more than 3 days between flights, Rarotonga becomes far more viable at 3x weekly instead of 1x weekly, and Apia also becomes do-able at twice weekly.

San Francisco-London is just begging to be operated, and the risk on MAN-LAX is minimal given that it only uses a 763 in its existing configuration and effectively replaces the earlier BD MAN-LAS flight.

And while the LAX-MAN-LAX sectors can't be done in 24 hours, the fact that there are five weekly 763s coming in AKL-NAN or APW-LAX means that they wouldn't sit on the tarmac at LAX for too long.

With Northwest vacating T2 at LAX, Air New Zealand would be back up to 5 widebody flights per day and would become the major tenant at T2, and in a position to have it rebuilt for its needs with through passengers AKL-LHR/MAN in mind.

And if that worked, I'd have a low threshold for adding PER-BNE-LAX and MEL-LAX 787 services to the airline's purpose built facilities. They would operate as point-to-point entities, but would probably attract significant numbers of BNE/MEL-MAN/LHR passengers too.

(BNE-SIN-DXB-MAN is no shorter than BNE-LAX-MAN when transit times are factored in).


User currently offlineXiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11975 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 8):
I'd just like to confirm that I have now researched this in depth, and that the following US airlines have applied to the DOT in the last 18 months to either delay commencing services to China, or to suspend them:

US Airways (PHL-PEK)
Continental (EWR-PVG, EWR-PEK)
Delta (ATL-PVG, SEA-PEK)
Northwest (DTW-PVG)
American Airlines (ORD-PEK)
United Airlines (SFO-CAN)

One thing you might have missed is all those American airlines are not giving up on China routes. Their decision was merely a reflection of the current global market condition. I doubt if they are willing to surrender their routes to others. Also as for as I can recall, the only routes that are in question are US's PHL-PEK and UA's SFO-CAN. All the other routes are still operating or still on schedule.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 11):
And if that worked, I'd have a low threshold for adding PER-BNE-LAX and MEL-LAX 787 services to the airline's purpose built facilities. They would operate as point-to-point entities, but would probably attract significant numbers of BNE/MEL-MAN/LHR passengers too.

(BNE-SIN-DXB-MAN is no shorter than BNE-LAX-MAN when transit times are factored in).

I can see your input has your selfish reasons. I once lived in BNE too. As much as I want to see NZ operating a AKL-BNE-PVG route, (in fact, read from an old magazine, the QLD government was once courting the then CEO Ralf Norris for a BNE-PVG route before NZ started China routes), I don't think that's how an airline is run. At the moment, I can see NZ simply not have enough resource to concentrate on long haul routes. Including Rob Fyfe himself their focus is probably at home. Remember NZ is a small airline on the world stage. One has to be realistic.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24999 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11948 times:
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Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 12):
Remember NZ is a small airline on the world stage. One has to be realistic.

Oh, dear.

For the past eleven years I have followed - intently - a small US airline with a single hub. It would be foolish to compare the two. for obvious reasons, but certain things remain constant.

Out of affection for the airline I have defended the single hub with a deal of passion but with almost no conviction because I think the criticism of the singe hub strategy is valid - it is all the eggs in one basket.

I watched that small airline try to break away from the single hub, but they played it "safe" and it didn't work and when the single hub came under assault it all ended in the bankruptcy court.

I am not comparing the two airlines, I am comparing the situations. Air NZ's core market is 4 million people and that core market is under serious assault.

Routes like AKL-BNE-PVG (or AKL-BNE-XXX) are exactly the routes they should be looking at, to expand that core market.

One has to be realistic.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11942 times:



Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 12):
I can see your input has your selfish reasons. I once lived in BNE too. As much as I want to see NZ operating a AKL-BNE-PVG route, (in fact, read from an old magazine, the QLD government was once courting the then CEO Ralf Norris for a BNE-PVG route before NZ started China routes), I don't think that's how an airline is run. At the moment, I can see NZ simply not have enough resource to concentrate on long haul routes. Including Rob Fyfe himself their focus is probably at home. Remember NZ is a small airline on the world stage. One has to be realistic.

The Manchester and Brisbane parts are an after-thought, granted.

But I've just demonstrated how much more lucrative LHR-LAX is than AKL-PVG or PEK, and I think it's absolutely rock-solid realistic to ask why Air New Zealand retains loss-making - catastrophically loss-making - routes to unviable long-haul destinations when it could be improving even further the performance of its San Francisco and Vancouver routes by extending them to London just like the successful AKl-LAX-LHR route.

The example I gave above was absolutely stark. Every PVG and PEK flight for the next four weeks fully available in Business Premier, Premium and the most profitable classes (and even economy subclasses) are all unsold. In contrast, only one Business and one Premium Economy seat LHR-LAX were unsold.

So why not extend SFO or YVR onto the UK instead?


User currently offlineXiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11924 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 14):
The example I gave above was absolutely stark. Every PVG and PEK flight for the next four weeks fully available in Business Premier, Premium and the most profitable classes (and even economy subclasses) are all unsold. In contrast, only one Business and one Premium Economy seat LHR-LAX were unsold.

So why not extend SFO or YVR onto the UK instead?

You might be right about the next 4 weeks but you don't have the figures for the whole year. I am sure any route has its "down" time. Having said that, NZ sees the Chinese routes as an investment. It does not have to make money now. I am sure this debate will continue. SIN would have had worse load factor for NZ. So the China move makes sense to me.

How many airlines are running the SFO or YVR-UK route? What would make NZ competitive?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
Routes like AKL-BNE-PVG (or AKL-BNE-XXX) are exactly the routes they should be looking at, to expand that core market.

One has to be realistic.

I also think SYD-BNE and SYD-MEL are the routes they should be looking at. I have to think NZ only have the resource to focus on one market at a time. That is at the moment domestic.

I am not really a fan of the single hub strategy but would decentralization sabotage other existing routes? Given New Zealand's market size.

We will probably soon see NZ's last long haul service to CHC end. By the time, all long haul flights will originate and terminate in AKL.

[Edited 2009-11-13 22:08:27 by xiaotung]

User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11904 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 88):
Because Air NZ management haven't grasped that Western Australia has the southern hemisphere's highest per capita income levels, and that Qantas woefully underserves Perth.

Two points - IF Western Australia was so lucrative why has BA, VS or QF never done this before?

Quoting Koruman (Reply 93):
The problem is will. Air NZ's current management for some reason thinks that AKL-PEK has more potential than extending the existing AKL-PER flight onto LHR. I don't know what they're smoking, but it's working.

Or maybe you are wrong, NZ is looking at developing new routes, China is expect to continue onto Europe but events in recent years have left us disappointed in the results yet they are not yet yelling to through in the white flag just yet.

Quoting SXI899 (Reply 175):
You'd be about right. I plotted it with the forecast winds based on a departure from PER on the 12th at 1400UTC.
Zero-wind gives a flight time in a B772ER of 16.52, and with the forecast winds flight time was 17.47.

Yorden

What system are you using?

Quoting Koruman (Reply 11):
Daily NZ1/2 AKL-LAX-LHR, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y
Daily NZ5/6 AKL-LAX-MAN, operated across the Pacific by a 77E and across the Atlantic by a 763 configured 24J / 46U / 153Y (the current configuration, but with Space Plus sold as Premium Economy which does better than lie-flat business from Manchester).
Daily NZ7/8 AKL-SFO-LHR, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y

These flights would feed in at LAX into a modern version of the old Pacific island network, as follows:

NZ XX AKL-NAN-LAX (3 x weekly, 763 configured as currently 24J / 46U / 153Y)
NZ XY AKL-RAR-PPT (daily A320) changing planes but not flight number when connecting as.....
NZ XY PPT-LAX (3x weekly, 77E configured 36J / 40U / 180Y)
NZ XZ AKL-APW-LAX (2x weekly, 763 configured as above).

Oh dear
AKLLAXLHR
AKLAXMAN
AKLSFOLHR
AKLPERLHR

On top of

AKLLAX
SYDLAX
BNELAX
MELLAX
PERBNELAX

And

AKLXXXLAX

Can NZ sustain this?

Dear oh dear oh dear. Koruman apparently NZ does everything wrong yet they are still making money (just) and many airlines are not. I know for a fact they are doing one thing right and that is offering a product you can't resist. GE aren’t you?

Back on a topic of PER LHR if NZ start this route and it became a real money maker so BA/QF and VS jumped in the mix and started flying it. No doubt NZ would loose a share of this market. Would it still be a sucess for NZ after all the set up costs etc? Would it then be worth while and viable?

Just a note Koruman, because although I'm glade your not in Rob's seat right now I do find your posts interesting. Can you just give me a list with fleet numbers and routes of what you think NZ's long haul network should be made up from.

Ground TG992



-
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24999 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11902 times:
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Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 15):
I also think SYD-BNE and SYD-MEL are the routes they should be looking at. I have to think NZ only have the resource to focus on one market at a time. That is at the moment domestic.

I wouldn't stick it to Qantas quite so obviously myself.

Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 15):
I am not really a fan of the single hub strategy but would decentralization sabotage other existing routes? Given New Zealand's market size.

If you mean decentralization to, say, CHC, then sure, it would cannibalize the AKL hub, at least to some extent, and it is still a core market of only four million.

The trick is to expand the core market beyond four million, to find different revenue streams - not the same revenue stream divided up differently.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11897 times:



Quoting Koruman (Reply 8):
I've also used a well-known online tool to check Air New Zealand's loads to and from Beijing and Shanghai for every flight for the next four weeks. I should have realised earlier that because of the visa situation there are virtually no last minute changes except due to upgrades, so these loads can be considered definitive in terms of passenger revenue.

Don't forget that a flight can be profitable even when there is no passenger on board, if the belly of the aircraft is stuffed full. We don't know what is in the deck below on these flights.

By the way, do we know more about which routes make money and which routes bleed money than the company's accountants? What facts do we know (that the accountants don't know) to base our recommendations on which routes to start and which routes to drop? I just don't believe NZ would make their decisions without consulting their accountants' reports.


User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11894 times:



Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 15):
How many airlines are running the SFO or YVR-UK route? What would make NZ competitive?

During the summer season there are loads of carriers flying from Western Canada to the UK. Some of them fly to ports other than London. Quite a lot of these Canadian carriers seem to go bust and get replaced by new carriers, so it sounds like a fairly low yield market. AirNZ and Air Canada are supposed to be mates, so you would think AirNZ would not enter an AC market.

SFO-LHR is served by BA, UA and VS. Unlike some other routes between UK and the USA, this route does not have a second US carrier operating. So, somebody thinks this is a rather smaller market than LAX-LHR. Once again, this is a city pair which is operated by a Star Alliance carrier, and AirNZ is also quite friendly with VS - if AirNZ did enter this market it would be working with the other airlines as partners.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 11822 times:

How much does these two legged flights to LHR cost? How much does new slots at decent times in LHR cost?

One day AirNZ might go to Manchester, personally I am not supportive of it because Manchester is low yield and thats tough when you do a two leg longhaul like AirNZ does. Manchester will be full of backpackers, VFR and OEs no doubt but will it be profitable, I doubt it.

AirNZ is doing something good at the moment and that is serving destinations that they can profit from. They have slowly increased the US/Canadian westcoast and over the last few years introduced San Francisco and Vancouver. Good moves and following a strategy of adding routes where you have a competitive advantage.

China, is on a one leg distance and a very important production country. its also the home of one of NZ largest immigrant populations plus a 1.5 billion market. Of course thats where AirNZ will look. Just like any other carrier and why because they are seeking growth and China is a growth market.

To even imply that its fraudulent is bizarre or at best disillusional.

And then in the next sentence suggest AirNZ Auckland-Perth-LHR. I am just scratching my head.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineXiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11764 times:

Starting 30MAR10, Air New Zealand will streamline its Tokyo service. With the new change, it’ll operate 6 weekly Auckland – Tokyo vv service, and cancel the Auckland – Tokyo – Christchurch – Auckland service which operates 3 weekly. This results in Air New Zealand leaving Christchurch without any long-haul service (except Rarotonga)

Schedule from 30MAR10 as follows:

NZ099 AKL0830 – 1640NRT 772 x34
NZ090 NRT1815 – 0815+1AKL 772 x345
NZ090 NRT1830 – 0830+1AKL 772 5

30MAR10 – 12JUN10 Day x34
13JUN10 – 26JUN10 Day x347
28JUN10 – 11JUL10 Day x34
12JUL10 – 25AUG10 Day x4
26AUG10 – Day x34

As expected. The CHC service was required by JL as part of the codeshare agreement. I wonder what will happen with the codeshare. If JL stopped buying seats on NZ Japan services, probably NZ will reduce Japan service further.


User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11748 times:

All these double sectors are pipe dreams. They require more aircraft and way more ground/aircrew than point to point which all eats into profit on a route. I don't completely rule other routes than AKL getting new services though . If they were to happen they would work something like this...

ROT services will work as follows. WLG-SYD-ROT-SYD-WLG. I see it more likely, and more feasible to operate a similar pattern say AKL-PVG-BNE-PVG-AKL and have it connect with WLG/CHC-BNE services etc than to operate AKL-BNE-PVG-BNE-AKL . Keep in mind that that this case operating crew hour limits would mean paxing crew to BNE to operate to PVG taking away revenue/seats and that adds up very quickly when you need to position 10-12 crew on an A320.... Cabin crew that would normally fly AKL-BNE-AKL in a day (and be back in AKL - Our Hub for their next duties ) would now have to operate AKL-BNE then a 2-3 day layover until it flies again or pax back to AKL. This is completely unrealistic and just inefficient use of resources. Changing aircraft type mid tour of duty in LAX would hardly be ideal as well as would happen if the did AKL-LAX on 772, then onward to MAN with a 763.

KIX/HNL currently can have cabin crew layovers of 1 night or they can have up to 3-4 days up there depending on which day of the week they depart AKL, so you can imagine what would happen if all these 2 stoppers started.

part of NZs success in the last few years has been better use of their aircraft and crew resources to ensure the least downtime in AKL (744s not withstanding due to them being fazed out of service as much as possible). With this in mind I'd almost guarantee that any new sectors in the next few years are unlikely to be 2 stoppers.

I am fully aware of the actual loads in cabin and hold that we operate to PVG/PEK and no they aren't as bleak as some of you think.


User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11734 times:



Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 21):
As expected. The CHC service was required by JL as part of the codeshare agreement. I wonder what will happen with the codeshare. If JL stopped buying seats on NZ Japan services, probably NZ will reduce Japan service further.

Any idea what will happen to the KIX services. My impression is that NZ's Japan services are popular with Japanese school groups going to NZ dressed in their school uniforms.

Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 21):
This results in Air New Zealand leaving Christchurch without any long-haul service (except Rarotonga)

RAR is no where near long haul, and only operates a few months a year.


User currently offlineXiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11728 times:



Quoting Cchan (Reply 23):
Any idea what will happen to the KIX services. My impression is that NZ's Japan services are popular with Japanese school groups going to NZ dressed in their school uniforms.

KIX-CHC had been announced to be all going KIX-AKL direct a couple of weeks ago. Just checked NZ schedule. Basically NRT will be 5x and KIX 3x from next March -ish.


25 Koruman : Firstly, BA is London-cetric and Qantas is Sydney-centric. Secondly, their business models for long-haul are to have 60-70 First and Business Class s
26 Koruman : It doesn't matter that AKL-PVG is a one-leg distance. It is a one-leg distance with no high-yield passengers, not even Full Economy (YBMH classes). W
27 Xiaotung : Again I would like to see you do some research before you post. If China isn't a growth market then which country is? Comparing China with Zimbabwe i
28 Cchan : How dynamic can the Zim economy look when a large number of people still rely on money sent from overseas relatives to sustain their living? A lot of
29 Xiaotung : Thinking of it as 2 different flights would be against logistical principles. Apparently you don't know operations any better than you know economics
30 Cchan : NZ can block AKL-LHR passengers from using the AKL-SFO-LHR flights and market the flight to AKL-SFO and SFO-LHR passengers only. NZ was doing this pr
31 Koruman : You might be taking a tongue-in-cheek comment a little bit too seriously here. My point is that using the external indicators available it appears th
32 Koruman : Now that the All Whites have qualified for the World Cup, I guess it's too late for Air NZ to introduce JNB flights before the competition starts? As
33 Aerokiwi : Lord Snooty would be exactly who you'd want targeted though, wouldn't you Koruman? Haven't we heard endlessly about the high-end market, the holidays
34 Xiaotung : From a logistical point of view, airlines operate around their hubs. NZ has very limited feed in LAX and HKG onward to London. NZ has no advantage in
35 Koruman : I can't believe what I'm reading here. LAX has always been a major transfer hub for Air New Zealand, with passengers from London and Frankfurt able t
36 Sunrisevalley : non-stop PER-LHR has only been possible with the 77L or a severely limited A340-500. None of the carriers mentioned have the equipment to do it. EK c
37 Xiaotung : Yes, passengers from London who are on the NZ flight. Even if pax transferring from FRA on LH won't buy 2 separate tickets to connect to NZ. These fl
38 Cchan : Unlikely they will: NZ just announced a code share with SA. This FIFA World Cup thing is a mere annoyance to me. Normally I can do CPT-JNB for around
39 Koruman : With respect, this makes no sense to me at all. There is no requirement for Air NZ to carry LHR passengers beyond LAX, and they generally don't. Many
40 Post contains links Mariner : I've posted stuff about this before, but it doesn't seem to get through. So - one mo' time: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-11/14/content_1245
41 SunriseValley : Perhaps a compromise is in order... run the service with the 777E on the PEK run and 763's on the PVG route or run AKL-BNE-PEK with a 763
42 Mariner : Okay. I don't involve myself in what equipment they use where - I leave that to others - but I have long advocated AKL-BNE-PVG. Or AKL-XXX-PVG. marin
43 Tayser : If they flew their 744s AKL-MEL-JNB I dare say they'd steal passengers from VA's as yet launched MEL-JNB service is going to have 2-3 hour diversions
44 767ER : No,only AKL, LHR and PVG
45 UncleKoru : I think you would have to go back to the days of 767 services ex WLG to find a similar level of frequency in the WLG-SYD market from Air NZ. Interest
46 Gemuser : No they couldn't! No traffic rights PER-LHR, unless its thru DXB. Gemuser
47 Alangirvan : Well, a two week sports carnival, whether it is the Soccer World Cup, the Olympics or which even is hardly a justification for a long term thing like
48 Xiaotung : That's exactly my point. Why would a California resident have to choose to fly NZ to London when there are dozens of other choices? There are way mor
49 Mariner : When I lived in California, my travel agent could always get me a better deal on Air NZ LAX-LHR - up the front - than just about any other airline. A
50 DavidByrne : NZ has done well on the LAX-LHR route by offering a high-quality niche service to discerning celebs. Whether that could be replicated on other Transa
51 BlackLabel : Attractively priced fares and a much better perception of quality. I know quite a few colleagues and associates of mine both in California and the UK
52 SunriseValley : A point that I had not thought of. Is it correct to say that h..l would freeze over before EK get anymore rights to and from Australia?
53 SunriseValley : Sx1899... What track and time does your software show for eastbound LHR-PER ?
54 Koruman : As all the other posters have written, it happens and it is a fact. The reasons I would give are: 1. LAX-LHR does not have Air NZ at any frequency di
55 767ER : I have to agree with you there. I have flown LAX LHR LAX a few times and both J and PE have been brimming each time. NZ gets loads of celebrities eg:
56 TG992 : NZ is AKL centric On one hand you say NZ needs more premium seats then you say PER LHR works because we don't have that many. Goodness thankfully you
57 Gemuser : No, I think EK will get their 4 daily from all Oz cities in due course as traffic rises. 4 is the magic number because that's how many banks EK are d
58 Kiwiandrew : IIRC it was pointed out a few threads back that the Koruhub would not work as NZ do not have all the necessary rights that they would need from HKG (
59 Koruman : Actually, you'll find that except for when California-UK numbers were capped I've been totally consistent at: 77E/L: 36 Business Premier / 40 Premium
60 SXI899 : Jeppesen flightplanning software. I'm back in the office tomorrow morning, I'll see what it comes up with. And possibly for the first time, we had a
61 Post contains links NZ107 : With the new winglets out for the A320, I wonder if NZ would opt for them on their newly ordered ones. Apparently they provide a 3.5% greater fuel eff
62 Post contains links Cchan : But there aren't many kiwis resident in South Africa. Great. For Cape Town to Bloemfontein, SAA's LCC - Mango also fly that route with 73H, they mayb
63 Zkpilot : Good to see. NZ doing another first. NZ would have been stupid not to take the winglets.
64 ANstar : Is there a big enough market for it? I'm sure DJ/VA willpick up some pax with their good connections AKL-MEL-JNB and the rest can use the NZ codeshar
65 Xiaotung : So NZ has to reduce price to attract passengers. Are we safe to say had there been no passengers from/to AKL, NZ would be better off starting an AKL-
66 DavidByrne : There's no simple answer to that - it obviously depends entirely on the demand from AKL to XXX. I understand your argument, but I strongly disagree t
67 Mariner : Of course, LAX-LHR gets some benefit from through traffic AKL-LHR. Why would you want to treat them as two separate flights? But I've flown LAX-LHR a
68 RichardJF : I think what NZ is doing is positioning itself to buy E190 if DJ starts using them on the Tasman or goes further and starts using them for domestic hi
69 Pewpew320 : Didn't they just buy the ATRs though? so I doubt they'll replace them any time soon.
70 Zkpilot : Unlike the UK or Australia, New Zealand only has one "real" city so of course its AKL centric
71 Cchan : Generally speaking, if you fly direct from country A to country B, carriers from A and B usually have the best times and more frequent flights. While
72 UncleKoru : Agreed. And commercial lore would have it that double sector routes are only viable if you have demand from A-B and B-C on top of A-C. The further yo
73 NZ107 : Even so, if the price is low enough, people will make it there on time. Remember that HK's transport system is light years in front of anything down
74 Alangirvan : Last time I looked, and this may have been before Global Financial Crisis, on HKG-LHR CX had four times daily, BA had three times daily, and VS brief
75 UncleKoru : There has been a reduction since then.
76 SunriseValley : Would this have anything to do with landing slots at LHR ? Certainly the turn around time at LHR has plenty of room in it. I wonder how much the time
77 Post contains links NZ107 : Here's a nice image of what the wingletted A320 will look like in NZ c/s: 'Shark Fin' wings give airline chiefs something to smile about
78 RichardJF : Once NZ went from the 36 seat (?) saabs to the 50 seat Q300 the ATR's could have been replaced with more Q300's
79 DavidByrne : Yes, I wonder whether the ATRs might end up being replaced effectively by a 90-seat future turboprop, or a regional jet in the E190/CS100 class. Othe
80 Zkpilot : People catch early morning flights from destinations all over the world. I don't see why HK is any different! Most locals going to the airport in HKG
81 David_itl : You're not, but given that there's a hell of a lot of passengers who currently go MAN-LHR-HKG (well over 100,000 per year if the CAA surveys and repo
82 RichardJF : There's two things that make E190's pretty logical 1. the 2 flight attendents for 100 passengers. 2. the large array of routes they could be used on.
83 UncleKoru : Air NZ no longer has F. I am referring to Business Premier and Premium Economy (as well as higher yielding Y fares). I think that you're right, Air N
84 Cchan : That is, if the price is low enough to cover taxi charges, which can be very expensive depending on where you live. Not for getting to the airport wh
85 SunriseValley : I have made this point before and must reiterate it; an A320 with the same passenger load as an A319 is only 3% heavier. With the new winglet the ope
86 Mariner : It is probably a non-starter at Air NZ, but I'm not sure why. It has to do with revenue/yield management. The A319 can be profitable on routes where
87 NZ107 : What's the difference in price between taking a taxi at 6am and 11pm?? I'd like to see a comparison between getting to the airport using public trans
88 SunriseValley : With respect, I don't see it that way. Everytime an A320 takes of with 5, 50 or 100 passengers it is only 1.419t heavier than the A319 with the same
89 Cchan : The taxi fare isn't different. At 6 am, you have no choice but to catch a taxi all the way to the airport (cost can be >NZ$100), at 11 pm, you have t
90 Kaiarahi : And they're pax friendly. AC frequent flyers I know (Elite/Super Elite) - and me - try to manage their schedules to fly E190s rather than CRJs.
91 Cchan : I thought Canadians are supposed to support Made in Canada?
92 LAXintl : I'm not quite sure what you are implying here, however NZ is not the largest tenant in T-2 even after NWA departure, nor would it be in much of a pos
93 Mariner : If you can't sell the seats, then it's a problem. Nor is the A319 really a "second type" - there is complete commonality. Easyjet prefers the A319 ov
94 NZ107 : If you take the view of a tourist, you're never going to have the option of getting a friend to drop you anywhere.
95 Dj738 : Note the promotional image features the Pacific Wave, that Air New Zealand dropped some time ago...
96 Cchan : Tourists don't usually stay in the suburbs either. Tourist accommodations can usually organise a transfer to the airport for them. When I stop in HKG
97 777ER : I took some photos of the A340 on Saturday and it certainly was a sight to see. Wouldn't be surprised if it got out as quickly as possible to try and
98 Kiwimex : Mexicana/Qantas codeshare PPT-MEX ? What are the odds of that being considered? I see if having a number of benefits... 1. Opens up NZ Australia to th
99 David_itl : 2 daily 77Ws (with 80%+ loads), with the expectation that they'll be introducing the A380 sooner rather than later.
100 Cchan : The problem is, I guess, most of the traffic originates from the South African side, and they also have the choice to go on SA, QF and VA. Can NZ get
101 Koruman : No, we're not safe to say anything of the sort. LHR and LAX are both large, rich markets. AKL is small and poor, so any destination served from AKL a
102 777ER : I would say no since NZ and SA recently signed the code-share deal. Why have two Star carriers basically competing for passengers on the same route w
103 Koruman : I totally agree. The thing is though, there are two very good reasons for it to be Air NZ which is the operating airline instead of SAA. Firstly, SAA
104 SXI899 : I planned it with departure today (17/11/09) at 1200Z from EGLL. Routing is: BPK UM185 CLN UL620 ARNEM UP147 RKN UL980 USTIL UN191 NM UM991 OLGIN B49
105 Kaiarahi : Not when made in Brazil is more comfortable, more headroom, quieter, and has real carry-on storage. I don't wear Canadian underwear either.
106 VirginFlyer : I stand to be corrected, but I recall reading not so long ago that the A340-500/-600s actually have an advantage over the 777-200LR/-300ERs out of Jo
107 SunriseValley : Yorden.... you are a jewel on this site... someone who can present the facts not his spin on them! Some questions.. 1.. what was the distance of this
108 Post contains links TG992 : Very nice. 33 wasn't it? The more I think about E170/190 the more I like the idea, questions I have though; is the Q300 to small for IVC-CHC and the
109 DavidByrne : I could see NZ operating PER-CPT while maintaining a codeshare on PER-JNB with SA, and vice versa. I agree that the possibility of a large turboprop
110 TG992 : Why would you hub at SYD and compete with QF when we can service all these cities direct from AKL? will the WLG-AKL flights then fly direct into Aust
111 DavidByrne : I acknowledge that NZ could do that, but for the present it appears to offer such connections on a rather haphazard (and not very pax-friendly) basis
112 Motorhussy : Just wondering if anyone got any pics of the Gulf Air A340 in WLG over the weekend? Looked pretty good on the tarmac and apron when I saw it. KR's MH
113 TG992 : I guess all i'm going to bother saying to this is that IF there was enough demand for WLG-ADL then they would make the AKL-ADL connect with WLGAKL. B
114 Koruman : This could be a serious option, a very serious option. South Africa is an emerging market, and at present only Johannesburg is properly catered for f
115 Koruman : Part of the reason why the soccer World Cup is a goldmine is because the organisers, FIFA, have a single worldwide travel agent, MATCH, which has bou
116 Alangirvan : Because the AKL-ADL flights leave first thing in the day, there is no way any one from any where else in NZ can get onto those flights with out stayi
117 SunriseValley : Are you sure? Last time NZ had a 772 on the LAX-LHR sector they angered their premium clientele because of a lack of premium seats to allow travel da
118 Koruman : I'm thinking a 77W on AKL-LAX-LHR PLUS a 77E on AKL-SFO-LHR. That allows 26 more Business Premier and 36 more Premium Economy seats from California t
119 Alangirvan : I think Koruman's idea is to get rid of all Kiwi tourists who want to fly to UK, and tell them to get there on Emirates or Royal Brunei. Then load th
120 Mariner : Do the agreements allow them to offer SFO-LHR? mariner
121 RichardJF : The Air Austral 800 seater A380..... this is a hidden danger. I would say it's almost certain that all these A380 will after a couple years will be co
122 UncleKoru : I would say you are undoubtly right, and if you take too much traffic away from AKL you undermine the "hub", not that WLG would have much impact with
123 RichardJF : Your going to start to see a separation between long haul economy which will go downmarket and premium economy/business which will go upmarket.
124 Koruman : My reputation as a premium-minded person obviously precedes me! How on earth do you arrive at thus conclusion that I'm trying to get rid of all Econo
125 DavidByrne : Leaving aside the issue of long-haul services and focusing on the Tasman services, I would hazard a guess and sugegst that few passengers do travel W
126 777ER : If the next generation props with around 80-90 seats come out in the next few years then maybe its best if NZs domestic fleet includes the A319 to br
127 RichardJF : You may find QF eventually puts premium economy and business on the 787 and economy goes downmarket (no ptv's) in high density arrangement JQ A380.
128 Post contains links 777ER : Air New Zealand crash remembered - http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/...9/Air-New-Zealand-crash-remembered
129 Aerokiwi : Qantas holds the majority of government travel contracts for international flights. It's not the preference of employees, but they clearly had the be
130 DavidByrne : If that is indeed the answer to NZ's Transtasman slide (and I'm not in a position to judge, just to ask the questions) then that would indeed support
131 UncleKoru : I did actually, a few posts back. It is all about connectivity and nothing more. I think you're spot on the money with your thinking behind one of Ai
132 UncleKoru : For details regarding the size of the Wellington International market, see "growth prospects for Wellington" at the Infratil web site. Gives a great (
133 777ER : I'm surprised MEL is WLG's best route since its had no growth. DJ is looking at launching WLG-MEL within the next 12 months (SOURCE: WLG 50th celebra
134 UncleKoru : I can't post internal data but there is information in the public domain that chronicles this trend (see below). Note numbers to BNE have been solid t
135 SXI899 : Stop it! You're making me blush 1. Track distance is 8108nm. 2. Heathrow has a standard taxi time of 20mins, Perth would be 10mins, so half hour tota
136 Cchan : JNB has the best domestic connections in South Africa, while CPT does not. Flying your aircrafts to JNB means you get customers from all parts of the
137 TG992 : AKLYVRMAN? Does AC do YVR MAN??? I think you missed my point. Would you rather transit in AKL or SYD? At least AKL you can walk or get the free bus t
138 Koruman : I've looked at a Star RTW flying in or out of Luanda or Maputo as every airline has zeroed out all Economy subclasses apart from Y. The problem is th
139 Alangirvan : no to SYD or AKL. You would do the transit at MEL where you walk between domestic and international gates under one roof. MEL is the best airport for
140 TG992 : Well the example given was for SYD not MEL and apparently WLG-MEL is doing fine on its own. You now need to look at the economics for doing a short M
141 DavidByrne : You would indeed have the opportunity to pick up at SYD - NZ airlines do have the right to run domestic services within Australia. The requirement to
142 DavidByrne : At that stage, NZ did not have the rights to add a second flight to Europe through California - but now it does.
143 Aerohottie : SXI899 - Would you be able to do a tracking for AKL-LHR and LHR-AKL east-bound in both directions... thought this would be an interesting one.
144 UncleKoru : Would rather transit in SYD than overnight in AKL to make the connection. You're right though, AKL is quite a pleasant transit in comparison. But as
145 TG992 : Who you going to pick up? DJ, QF and TR passengers? It's already a blood bath on that route and to make passengers check in early at the Intl termina
146 Axio : No AKL-DUD?
147 Koruman : John Macilree has confirmed on this site that at the time, three to four years ago, Air NZ was capped at 392 seats per day from California to London.
148 DavidByrne : Perhaps I should have been clearer. If there were to be a smaller jet like the E190 or CS100 in the fleet (or indeed, the A319), then I would imagine
149 SunriseValley : NZ appointed a well connected regional manager more than a year ago, I wonder if this guy is performing? A question, have they identified who their c
150 RichardJF : It doesn't make sense to stay at LHR when some of NZ's best opportunities are in europe. NZ may not be flying long haul in ten years unless it adapts
151 Koruman : I actually think that a large part of the problem with HKG is the scheduling of flights which all seem to involve crack-of-dawn check-ins. Frequency
152 Alangirvan : It should be noted that Koruman is the only one who mentions a figure of 392 - John's post in thread 18 says nothing about actual numbers. AirNZ have
153 Post contains images Mariner : Or PVG. But that might be better into mainland Europe. mariner[Edited 2009-11-18 20:26:03 by mariner]
154 Cchan : Angola visa is hard to get, but for Mozambique, you can get a visa on arrival at Maputo airport as far as I know (but check with one of their diploma
155 777ER : WLGs curfew is from 1am - (its either) 5.30 or 6am. QF have a 6am flight to Australia.
156 TG992 : So NZ COULD run a 0600 WLGAKL if it warranted it. Ground TG992
157 777ER : I remember a few years ago I caught the first NZ flight of the day from WLG-AKL and the fligght was around 70-80% full considering how early it was.
158 SXI899 : Of course. AKL-LHR routing on the airways would be: AA A578 NN A579 CARRP DCT HNL DCT ZIGIE A331 SEDAR C1418 HQM J70 SEA J503 YNY J527 YMM NCAC 090C
159 Kiwimex : So go via MEX or GDL. Cities of 8 and 5 million people respectively. Good holiday midpoint stopover options (grab a cheap flight to Cancun, Cuba or P
160 Cchan : NZ402 from memory.
161 SunriseValley : Yorden, What is TAS do you use ?
162 TG992 : And there would be how much premium demand. Don't get Koruman started please. My point is they would need a 0600 flight to connect with the 0815 ADL
163 Mariner : SYD-AKL-MEX and on to, say, LHR or XXX? A deal more premium traffic than many might suppose, at least out of MEX. People who haven't been to Mexico t
164 Kiwimex : You could ask BA, AF, KL or LH they all run daily transatlantic 747 flights to MEX. KL runs 2. AF also do a 74Y 3 times a week CDG-MEX-GDL GDL would
165 TG992 : Sounds like a lot from LHR - MEX but from AKL-MEX? We have talked aobut the route being sold as two sectors over just AKLLHR traffic. Ground TG992
166 Mariner : As stated above, feed from SYD. SYD-AKL-MEX-XXX. mariner
167 Koruman : No-one doubts that there is Mexico-Europe high-yield traffic, but Air NZ has no traffic rights there. But Australia/New Zealand-Mexico has proved in t
168 Mariner : That was then, this is now. Thirty, or even twenty, years ago there was virtually no contact between Australia/NZ and Central or South America. Times
169 TG992 : I see BA fly LHRMEX up to 4 times a week. VS don't at all. AF do it twice a day. LH 5 times a week. Also no one on NZ6 or NZ2 tonight are going onto M
170 Kiwimex : So what explains the flights to SCL and BNE ?
171 Aerokiwi : Maybe. I'd argue that it should expand codeshares with Star carriers into Sydney. While it amazes some that NZ doesn't utilise it's beyond-Australia
172 DavidByrne : QF ran the Fiesta route in the 1960s, which at its peak ran 2x weekly, including one flight via AKL (the other via NAN). I don't think that it's auto
173 VirginFlyer : I was under the impression it was coming with the first 777-300ER, which is due sometime next year is it not? V/F
174 Mariner : Spot on, although I have no idea if they could get those rights. I think the whole point of the exercise is not to have MEX as a terminating destinat
175 Koruman : Can I add another comment, with respect to the AKL-Mexico-LHR suggestion. I think that there would need to be a successful Australia-Mexico flight bef
176 Kiwimex : Last time I flew MEX NZ MEX I did it via SCL. I was talking to a Mexican employee of QF at AKL and he said he suspects a lot of Mexicans fly via SCL
177 Mariner : Partly because there isn't any service. Many of those flying straight through to London probably don't care of they stop at LAX or SFO or IAH or DEN
178 DavidByrne : NZ has the advantage that it can feed traffic to and from ADL, MEL, SYD, OOL, BNE and CNS into flights via gate-to-gate connections departing Aucklan
179 Mariner : Equally, I know people in New Zealand, Australia and the UK who are residents but not nationals, who will not connect to anywhere through the US beca
180 Koruman : As a rule of thumb, I tend to think that if there is a market from our country to country B then either: - there need to be strong and high-volume per
181 Mariner : I don't think they will. I am not foolish enough to imagine that anything said here will be put into effect by Air NZ. At the same tim, I go to a Spa
182 Kiwimex : Ah. But we're not just talking visa eligibility here. I an eligible, but I refuse to fly anywhere via the USA because of my moral convictions. I fly
183 Kiwimex : Just to reinforce the "this isn't the 70's/80's anymore", I can walk into a supermarket here in Mexico and buy NZ butter and cheese Sometimes even leg
184 Koruman : Not enough. Otherwise Air NZ's AKL-HKG-LHR service would be growing in volume and AKL-LAX-LHR would be shrinking, whereas in fact the opposite is the
185 Mariner : Then there are the others, who don't fly charter. When I lived in Mexico twenty years ago, I met many quite wealthy British ex-pats who were still mo
186 DavidByrne : I think it's very emotive (and by far not proven) to suggest that AKL-HKG-LHR is a "failure", by comparison with the LAX route or otherwise. As you h
187 SunriseValley : Germany is the first choice destination for Chinese after nearby Asian states.
188 Koruman : 18 months ago Air NZ had a 744 on the route to LHR via HKG and a 77E on the route via LAX. Now, not only have those roles reversed, but the HKG fligh
189 TG992 : Yes FRA or MUC? But how many will travel AKLMEX? You need to have enough demand AKLMEX and MEXLHR to make it worth while hence the sucess of NZ2 or N
190 Mariner : I guess it is too much to hope that Air NZ would choose Berlin over Frankfurt. Housekeeping. If it is a problem, I assume there is a solution. marine
191 Xiaotung : You must have missed that PVG had a second terminal built one year after NZ opened PVG. And all *A carriers have been relocated under one roof. NZ is
192 Kiwiandrew : With regard to MEX , I have no idea whether the traffic exists or not ( although I will admit to being a bit skeptical ) but what I do know is that ME
193 NZ1 : Current plan is for the 773ER to get it first from October next year. NZ1
194 Cchan : Too many competitors on HKG-LHR, IMHO. Any idea whether NZ is still going to order 2-3 more 77W?
195 Kiwimex : MEX is 12619ft at 7341ft elevation. This may be why the Air France cargo 747 goes MEX->GDL->CDG GDL is 13120ft at 5012ft elevation.
196 NZ1 : I would love to elaborate further, but will refrain at the moment. Exciting times ahead though for Air NZ. NZ1
197 Kiwiandrew : Maybe they have read K'mans posts and will order 77Ls instead Sooooo unfair , we will all be wondering what that cryptic comment means ! Confidential
198 DavidByrne : What I'm suggesting is that "failure" is a very emotive word, and that a situation where one route out-performs another, doesn't mean that one of the
199 777ER : Or maybe a desperate attempt to get more passengers onto the PVG route by using destinations in Europe via Star partners? Infact the New Zealand Avia
200 Mariner : There are some very emotive words in this thread. HKG is "a failure" and Air NZ is "desperate" about PVG. I guess they may be "desperate" - I'm sure
201 Cchan : Plus the retirement of the 763 a few more years later With the likely 789 delivery delay, I wonder what Boeing is going to compensate NZ. Now that NZ
202 Zkpilot : I'm thinking as compensation for the 787 delays NZ will get 3-4 77L along with adding a 77W to its existing order (well obviously NZ would need to to
203 SunriseValley : All of the examples listed are pretty mundane in my view. Pretty much the same old things just a different day. A new route, big yawn, they have to d
204 Zkpilot : I agree... They don't even have to do a takeover... all they need to do is to take a strategic stake in another airline (specifically DJ). NZ could b
205 SunriseValley : In my view Godfrey has an excellent track record . While he has been at it longer , I would back him over Fyfe. He has the balls to take on NZ on its
206 HLZCPH : We took the AKL-PVG- Europe option for our annual Europe flights earlier this year. The return through PVG was day one of this trial. We were one of
207 Aerokiwi : Everyone overlooks Tiger. While it has it's problems, it is established on some key routes in Australia, has a compatible fleet and a very, very low c
208 Zkpilot : You forget that it is owned by SQ who aren't friendly to NZ in the slightest for the best part of a decade now. Also Tiger has a terrible rep in Oz,
209 Aerokiwi : Tamasek owns them, don't they? And only half at that, I think. I don't understand the dynamics of the SQ/NZ relationship anymore, but if it's unprofi
210 Zkpilot : SQ is Temasek... well Temasek owns all of SQ and that is its aviation business. The only reason why it owns 49% of Tiger is to get around the foreign
211 NZ107 : Well I'm sure that some people could dispute this, just like how JQ was performing when they just started. I'm trying them out on Wednesday and I'll
212 B767ERWinglets : Come on everyone and get real. There is no way in hell (IMHO) that DJ with sell to NZ, or VV. This was all looked at when AN went under. DJ were going
213 NZ107 : A couple of things I'd like to say - Why not if the price is right? Why can't it be a possibility? Your reasoning behind such a strong view? Ansett c
214 Zkpilot : Firstly its not up to DJ. If NZ wants to buy a stake in DJ it is up to individual shareholders to sell their shares to NZ. DJ can endorse it or decla
215 Post contains links 777ER : New Zealand Aviation Thread #67 (by 777ER Nov 22 2009 in Civil Aviation)
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