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A320 To Get Winglets  
User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22039 times:

Hot off the press from Jon Ostrower/IAD787
http://twitpic.com/pm5nm

Nice, I wonder who will make them?


This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6914 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22047 times:

I wonder if that will give them an edge over the 737-800...?

User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 22007 times:

3.5% over stock A320 apparently
http://twitter.com/flightblogger/status/5733442560

I'll leave the armchair CEO's to do the comparisons  cheeky 



This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21984 times:

Quoting VHHYI (Reply 2):
3.5% over stock A320 apparently

3.5% is no joke and begs the question, why on earth did they not implement it earlier like Boeing did with the 737NG? Seems like that was an obvious low-hanging fruit...

Faro

[Edited 2009-11-15 02:37:56]


The chalice not my son
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21943 times:

Flight Global has more information:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-airbus-selects-wingle.html

* Available on new A320 aircraft from 2012. NZ launch customer.
* Available on new A319 and A321 from 2013
* Fuel savings of 3.5% on routes > 1500nm.
* 110nm more range or 500 kg more payload
* Not available as retrofit, however, Airbus is working with APB do develop a simpler design for retrofits


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21902 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 3):

3.5% is no joke and begs the question, why on earth did they not implement it earlier?

3.5% is for routes over 1500nm. At least for the Boeing winglets, the advantage gets bigger for longer routes.

1500nm is quite a sector length. In Europe, the vast majority of the Airbus 320 flights stays well under 1500nm. For the American market, the benefit is bigger, as it makes the A320 more suitable for transcons.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21872 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 3):
3.5% is no joke and begs the question, why on earth did they not implement it earlier?

They have been researching he past few years to find the best design. Which apparently they have found now. I do like the looks of the sharklets.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21803 times:

If they are only effective over 1500nm, I guess these A320's are flying across the Tasman only. I recall someone predicting that in the Aus Aviation thread

Maybe the other Oceania A320 operators will be interested for similar reasons...



This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 21756 times:

Here's a photo of the model:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-airbus-selects-wingle.html

Leahy said the winglets are directly based on the A350.

Enjoy!

IAD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21685 times:

G'day

Airbus has a video on their Dubai web site

http://www.airbus.com/events/dubai2009/

Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21665 times:
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Interesting that the article says the winglets will not be offered as a retrofit . They will not be available until the end of 2012 and launch customer NZ has part of their A320order being delivered in 2011 so I guess they will be operating some of the new order with 'sharklets' and some without .


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10022 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21618 times:
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Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
* Fuel savings of 3.5% on routes > 1500nm.
* 110nm more range or 500 kg more payload

Presumably this is a useful addition to the recently announced 1 tonne MTOW boost for the A32X which IIRC added about 150Nm to the A320's range....

Rgds


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21461 times:

I believe the launch customer for the A321 with winglets will be UA......or am I wrong ???


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineParapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1581 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21451 times:

I noted in an earlier forum that these "sharklets" will not extend the wings aspect ratio (keeping them nside some max width that airports demand for each class of plane).If that is so then it does beg the question of the other Airbus "wing fenced" plane the A380.If this wing tip (not just the "fence" but the whole fibreglass tip as made by Boeing Australia) was replaced by sharklets I imagine it too would get the "min 3.5%" advantage (and staying within the airport "width box").But being a very long range aircraft this saving must force majeur go up to 5 plus%.Now would'nt that be interesting! Thats the whole isssue of the 748 IMHO.Its the very last varient whereas the 380 is only starting out.

As for the 320 it just keeps on getting better and better.The 321 really is becomming a 757 for more and more potental routes.

With Leap-x only 4 years away its becomming easy to see why open rotor is being pushed to 2022.

BTW has Airbus already reprofiled the wing root fairing that was part of the overall 320 improvement package or is that still to come?


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 21326 times:

This enhancement has been up in the air for yrs. It was predicted yrs ago, Henry Lam made a great artist impression of a "A320 Enhanced Performance" (actually the very first I asked him).
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/2724857/

Adding winglets causes increased loading on the outer wing. I think Airbus made a trade-off between a more ambitious, more effective winglet that required structural modification of the outer wing, or a less ambitious winglet that can be easily retrofitted.

Obviously they went for the first more ambitious approach and will start a separate project for the retrofit market.

New engines is the next most effective enhancement that could push the A30X back yrs, unfortunately. Positive thing for us aviation enthusiast is that it will put the heat on the Boeing sales department, that will no doubt pick up the phone & call old mates at the development department & start working out various business cases



[Edited 2009-11-15 04:03:58 by keesje]

User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21151 times:



Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
A380.If this wing tip (not just the "fence" but the whole fibreglass tip as made by Boeing Australia)

That wingtip and fence ain't fibreglass. It may look small out there on the end of the A380 wing but it's a pretty sizable structure which I'm pretty sure is mostly metallic (as are the A330/A340 wing tips and winglets we also make). For what it's worth our company is called Boeing Aerostructures Australia.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10731 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21012 times:

Looks nice. After 21 years its about time the A320 gets a "facelift"  Wink

User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21010 times:

I am impressed by their new slogans

The Best Keeps Getting Better





Right Aircraft Right Now

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © OlivierG



User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6914 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20877 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 17):
I am impressed by their new slogans

Is it my imagination or do Airbus do PR better than Boeing do?


User currently offlineTeme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20835 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Is it my imagination or do Airbus do PR better than Boeing do?

I think they got more creative PR staff. Perhaps it's the European way to look at things  Wink

Anyway the winglets looks nice on A320 reminds a bit of the winglets on the E-jets



Flying high and low
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20763 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 16):
Looks nice. After 21 years its about time the A320 gets a "facelift"  

Absolutely, the A320 is as interesting as a Toyota Corolla when it comes to looks, with the winglets it becomes an interesting looking aircraft.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4736 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20709 times:
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Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
I noted in an earlier forum that these "sharklets" will not extend the wings aspect ratio (keeping them nside some max width that airports demand for each class of plane).If that is so then it does beg the question of the other Airbus "wing fenced" plane the A380.If this wing tip (not just the "fence" but the whole fibreglass tip as made by Boeing Australia) was replaced by sharklets I imagine it too would get the "min 3.5%" advantage (and staying within the airport "width box").But being a very long range aircraft this saving must force majeur go up to 5 plus%.Now would'nt that be interesting!

Very interesting post on the developments of the A320 having potential gor the A380. Maybe we will see this modification on the A380-900 (and the later build A380-800?).  Wink

On the A320 developments: this is very good news for the A320 program. +3.5% better performance on a 1500 NM stretch is very good imho. Combined with this:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
Presumably this is a useful addition to the recently announced 1 tonne MTOW boost for the A32X which IIRC added about 150Nm to the A320's range....

makes the A320 family even more competitive against the B737-NG, which is now really loosing out on performance and passenger comfort. The larger A320 is more spacious and more quiet. What more do you want? (except a new engine  Wink).


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20647 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
110nm more range or 500 kg more payload

This is a nice addition to the A320. It will really make the next sales competitions more interesting. Will the A320 have the edge?

Quoting NA (Reply 16):
Looks nice. After 21 years its about time the A320 gets a "facelift"

I still believe the A320 looks modern. Perhaps it is because my home airport OSL is dominated by 737 Sad

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Is it my imagination or do Airbus do PR better than Boeing do?

I am not so sure. 4 engines 4 long haul proved wrong.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6914 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20628 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 22):
I am not so sure. 4 engines 4 long haul proved wrong.

Let's kill this myth. That slogan came from VS, not from Airbus!


User currently offlineAerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2833 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20626 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
Absolutely, the A320 is as interesting as a Toyota Corolla when it comes to looks, with the winglets it becomes an interesting looking aircraft.

I think it looks cute with it's big roundy nose. It's good to see development like this, hope EI fit theirs out  Smile



Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
25 EPA001 : It was not proved wrong, but in the end it was proved that in the A340-600-B777-300ER market, it was not the only way to go. But the engines which al
26 Post contains links OyKIE : That slogan was used by Airbus. Read this article from 2002. http://www.seattlepi.com/business/80048_air26.shtml
27 Post contains links OyKIE : Here is the Airbus Ad from 2002. http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2002/2002%20-%201896.html?search=airbus a340[Edited 2009-11-15 06:37:39 b
28 PM : Wow. You are right and I am wrong. I apologise. Bedtime...
29 OyKIE : No problemo. Your posts are usually correct and this is was just a minor error. On to the thread, it will be interesting to see how the Winglets or s
30 C767P : When did UA order the A321?
31 Tdscanuck : Winglets are *hard*. They've known the fruit was there for years (it was never low hanging)...it took them this long to "pick it." What's the differe
32 R2rho : This has been in the rumor mill for some time after the latest type of winglets by AP tested this year had seemed to finally give promising results. N
33 Cchan : Maybe NZ will use the ones without winglets for domestic (2011 deliveries plus existing ones), and the wingleted ones for Tasman and Pacific operatio
34 YYZALA : Tdscanuck, The sharklets/winglets are of benefit because the increased weight is offset by the 3.5% in fuel efficiency and as posted earlier the 1t MT
35 MCOflyer : I take US and UA will be very interested as well as AC. US is known to fly some pretty long sectors with the A320 series. Potential customers besides
36 Rheinbote : They do The patent number
37 Post contains images OyKIE : Welcome to airliners YYZALA! I hope you will enjoy the stay   What will be interesting is how will the plannes 737NG anno 2012 compete against the p
38 Brilondon : I think that they would have ti weigh the cost benefits very closely as these aircraft for AC are getting up to 15 years old and may be looking for r
39 Dynamicsguy : I've been wondering that myself, particularly since they appear from the renderings and the photo of the model to look remarkably similar to the 737'
40 Rheinbote : Now I see what you mean. Up to now I thought sharklets have pointed tips. In contrast, the winglets sported by the Dubai 320 model look very much lik
41 Cchan : Birds, bats and insects with wings can fly, while sharks can swim ... not a great name for marketing
42 Aesma : I for one don't like winglets, on any aircraft. Triangular little things like on the A330/A340/747 are OK, or the fences on the A320/A380, but big win
43 SXDFC : Given what happened to a certain A320 recently, Id say Airbus would have a good marketing tool! It most certainly has wingtip fences! Why?
44 Aesma : I wasn't clear enough : I find them ugly. Wingtip fences are little things, it's not the same.
45 Nws2002 : The 748 and 787 have raked wingtips, just a different form of wingtip device. Winglets are not the end all, but if they reduce fuel burn I doubt the
46 Cptspeaking : Oh man, but they're sooo awesome looking, not to mention the performance advantages! The Citation X is a great example of winglets making a great-loo
47 Aerdingus : I was thinking why no winglet for the Superjet but it appears to have raked wingtips, like a smaller version of the 777
48 Post contains links VirginFlyer : Mr Ostrower's article says Airbus and Aviation Partners are working on a retrofit winglet: V/F
49 Tropical : I seem to remember from previous discussions in this forum that raked wingtips can be more effective at saving fuel on certain wings (presumably larg
50 DAL1044 : I personally find winglets make a aircraft more attractive. To me they simply complete the design of the wing. Of course one of my Favorite aircraft i
51 Tdscanuck : Well played, sir. Well played. No. In fact, in most cases, you'd rather it didn't. A winglet can aerodynamically improve any wing. It's a good soluti
52 Jetmatt777 : Anyone else thinks this looks like a larger E-jet?
53 Hloutweg : According to at least one of the reports, the 'sharklet' is a scaled down version from the A350XWB wing. That could be the reason they cannot retrofi
54 Post contains images Jdevora : They are big indeed, a picture from when an A380 had a pushback incident
55 Brons2 : So a division of Boeing is producing the retrofit winglets for Airbus?
56 MCOflyer : I do expect all future operators of the A320 series to examine this option. I think it is a wonderful idea even if the stage length is under the 1500
57 Dynamicsguy : I suspect it's Aviation Partners, not Aviation Partners Boeing (the joint venture between Aviation Partners and Boeing) doing the work. That said, as
58 B777LRF : Even one of the finest wing builders in the world, Dassault, found that winglets does have benefits, having for years ruled them out on the assumption
59 Gogojet : It appears in all the image/video releases that the winglets look like Aviation Partners winglets and not the more rounded "Sharkets" as shown in post
60 Post contains links OyKIE : So it seems. According to ATWonline the newbuilt winglets are Airbus design, but retrofits will be Aviation Partners. Link to the whole article here:
61 Wing : Winglets sure looks good but as a user what really care is the parformance .I really would like to hear from AIRBUS is A320 family would reach to FL 4
62 Faro : Valid arguments but I think that's only part of the answer. Given that the A320's performance was very competitive via-à-vis the Boeing product with
63 Mir : You're probably pretty safe there, since winglets would push the 380's span outside the 60m box that it just fits inside of now. -Mir
64 Post contains links EPA001 : Quoting Mir (Reply 63): outside the 60m box Correction: outside the 80m x 80m box. And if done in a certain way the wing lets on an A380 would not rea
65 Mir : Yeah, my metric conversions suck.... All winglets increase the span somewhat, and since the 380 is right up against the limit, I have a hard time see
66 Post contains links and images Faro : The A380 is a special case because it represents a step back in terms of aspect ratio. Given that its wingspan was constrained by existing airport fa
67 B777LRF : Service ceiling is not only dependent on aerodynamic performance of the wings, but also cabin pressure differential and emergency oxygen supply. Perh
68 Zkpilot : Either that, or that they will be available to other customers from 2012 after NZ gets its ones from 2011 on.
69 Aesma : Everybody seems to like them, so I guess I'll have to learn to like them too They are even on gliders with very large aspect ratios.
70 EPA001 : No, that will not be the case. The wing let will require some work done on the wing box, therefore it will not be retrofitted after Air NZ has receiv
71 Faro : I wonder about that. Patent litigation can be very slippery. If I were the holder of the patent on winglets I would have a go at challenging the vali
72 Post contains links and images Keesje : We discussed the topic about a month ago. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4565971/ Its seems those tested in july 200
73 Art : I presume they save fuel on ranges shorter than 1500nm, but not 3.5%. I presume that on very short routes the extra weight of the winglets and associ
74 EPA001 : As always adding wing lets to an existing design is a trade-off between increased aerodynamic performance against added weight. Where the turnover-po
75 Keesje : It moves with fuel prices. Things become smart when oil hits $80 again.
76 Zkpilot : Thats not what I was saying. I was saying that NZ might get its new A320s with the sharklets starting in 2011 since they are the launch customer. Oth
77 EPA001 : Ah, OK. Then I misunderstood your post completely. My apologies.
78 Vasu : These are going to look fantastic! I wonder how many airlines will go for the retrofit...
79 MSNDC9 : It should. The A-320 currently burns about 786 gallons/hr on a typical mission and the 737-800 with winglets about 781 (CFM engines). That would drop
80 Post contains links Dynamicsguy : If you have a look at the Aviation Partners Boeing data for the 737-800 winglets here and click on the fuel savings link this should give an idea of
81 Lightsaber : I too wonder at that. Is there another 1/2% of efficiency waiting for the A320 or is that included in the 3.5%? Sadly, its a Corolla with an aero kit
82 Planemaker : Supposedly there is a 2% maintenance savings. This is from AIN online... "Moreover, where runway performance is not limiting, operators should profit
83 Panais : Well this is 3.5% in fuel cost savings and 2% in engine maintenance cost savings. The 3.5% is on top of the 1% benefit from current wingtip fences, w
84 Faro : May well be but I recall reading somewhere that for longer missions, raked wingtips are more efficient overall (taking into account wing strengthenin
85 EA772LR : The A350XWB kind of has winglets, albeit very blended. The 787 has wingtips, and rather radical ones at that. (i.e. compare the wingtips of the 767-4
86 PM : If each keeps leapfrogging the other with 1% here or 1.5% there then they will both remain highly competetive for many years to come. And that's not
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