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TSA Rules Immaterial In The UK.  
User currently offline747438 From UK - England, joined Jan 2007, 838 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

After a particularly stressful and confrontational shift in the transfer area at LHR, I would just like to point out to our American travellers that just because an item is deemed to be "TSA compliant" does not mean it is acceptable in the UK.
There is no point in shouting nor becoming threatening because your item is not permitted though UK airport security checks. These regulations have been set out by the UK govenrment. Please respect these and be a little more understanding.

228 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13021 times:



Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Please respect these and be a little more understanding.

Well, you could call the Police if you think someone is being confrontational, but you need to bear in mind, they've prob just came off a 9 hour tx flight?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12952 times:

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
After a particularly stressful and confrontational shift in the transfer area at LHR, I would just like to point out to our American travellers that just because an item is deemed to be "TSA compliant" does not mean it is acceptable in the UK.

No, there is never any need for being confrontational, but when one sets rules that are at odds with the rules in force in most other countries, one has to expect a certain amount of passenger annoyance.

It isnt the passengers fault that in their new found zest for rule making, the world's governments havent bothered to co-ordinate an internationally recognised standard for what is after all, an international business.....  

Sorry you had such a crumby day though mate! Hope tomorrow is better and less stressful!  Wink

[Edited 2009-11-15 10:40:28]


Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12942 times:



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1):
Well, you could call the Police if you think someone is being confrontational, but you need to bear in mind, they've prob just came off a 9 hour tx flight?

It's maybe a point for consideration perhaps, but it's still no excuse to be confrontational because one either disagrees with, or is ignorant of, the laws of another country.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12914 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 3):
It's maybe a point for consideration perhaps, but it's still no excuse to be confrontational because one either disagrees with, or is ignorant of, the laws of another country.

True...there is no need for anyone to be confrontational, don't get me wrong.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12903 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 2):
but when one sets rules that are at odds with the rules in force in most other countries, one has to expect a certain amount of passenger annoyance.

 checkmark  In my experience, Britain is the most out of touch with both what the U.S. is doing and what the rest of Europe is doing. Sensitivity to that is important.

That said, this is the most important point in this whole thread:

Quoting AirNz (Reply 3):
it's still no excuse to be confrontational




I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12865 times:
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It's the way of things, unfortunately. Some people travel and expect things to be just the same as at home, and some days are better than others. Take the opportunity to teach people, and take it easy. It's not worth getting stressed about.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirstairFear From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12861 times:

Out of curiosity, what was the item in question?

I don't see how being so vague does anything to solve ignorance of another country's regulations.



CAM-1: Aw #. We're gonna hit houses dude.
User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12824 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
In my experience, Britain is the most out of touch with both what the U.S. is doing and what the rest of Europe is doing. Sensitivity to that is important.

There can be a certain feeling in the UK that standards there are higher in this regard than in some other countries. While I give top marks to UK security from my recent experiences at their airports, they do need to realise that other countries are not stupid, and just because, for example, one country has an exemption from the liquids ban for operating crew, it does not make standards in that country "Lax".

Every nation realises the terrorist threat, even if it might not be considered under direct threat like the US or UK.

Just as an example, although we in Ireland know we're probably pretty safe from Al Qaeda because we are not involved in the relavant conflicts, we cant rule out that they may seek to use our airports and airlines to strike the UK, so we ensure standards are maintained.

The point I am making is that the UK should embrace and seek to standardise with the secuirty regimes of other countries and seek to promote best practice, be that British practice or another.

It an area all countries need to look at, because it is frustrating the hell out of passengers who are genuinly trying their best to be compliant.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12819 times:

I have to wonder if these travelers (I'm not going to say Americans, as they're just flying out of the US and could be from many different countries) would have the nerve to be confrontational with the TSA. Do they automatically expect UK officers to be more reasonable, polite and thus to be able to take a certain amount of abuse?


Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12781 times:



Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 9):
would have the nerve to be confrontational with the TSA. Do they automatically expect UK officers to be more reasonable, polite and thus to be able to take a certain amount of abuse?

You may well have a point there!  Wink



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12785 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 8):
The point I am making is that the UK should embrace and seek to standardise with the secuirty regimes of other countries and seek to promote best practice, be that British practice or another.

I'm not sure that Britain needs to standardise. The UK, like many countries, has its own security problems, and those may have unique solutions.

The problem is that many travelers, even the best-intentioned, can't keep track of the web of regulations. It's a situation that doesn't necessarily occur across national borders; for a while in the U.S., some carriers permitted cellular phone use on landing and others did not and passengers could not keep it straight.

In my mind, the solution is understanding that there are differences and that those differences may be justifiable. That said, governments the world over should look for best practices, and if the best practice is the same everywhere, they should absolutely use it. Complete uniformity is, however, unlikely even in the best case.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12764 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
many travelers, even the best-intentioned, can't keep track of the web of regulations.

Sorry, I don't agree. In this country, there are HUGE signs stating the LAGS and other rules, and special rules if you are flying to the USA. They point out very clearly the differences in the rules depending where you are going. Reading the signs in the airport is no different from reading the signs on the road.



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12726 times:



Quoting Andz (Reply 12):
Sorry, I don't agree. In this country, there are HUGE signs stating the LAGS and other rules, and special rules if you are flying to the USA.

Unfortunately, in my experience at least, that type of signage is the exception, not the rule.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline747438 From UK - England, joined Jan 2007, 838 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12696 times:



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1):
Well, you could call the Police if you think someone is being confrontational, but you need to bear in mind, they've prob just came off a 9 hour tx flight?

Yes, I agree, it's always born in mind.

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 2):
Hope tomorrow is better and less stressful!

Rest day so it will be.

Quoting AirstairFear (Reply 7):
Out of curiosity, what was the item in question?

Several liquids and 3 scissors.. All different passengers.

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 9):
confrontational with the TSA. Do they automatically expect UK officers to be more reasonable,

I have been told that in general we are and deal with things with good humour and good manners.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12678 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 2):
It isnt the passengers fault that in their new found zest for rule making, the world's governments havent bothered to co-ordinate an internationally recognised standard for what is after all, an international business.

No, it's not their fault but yet it, like everything else, is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are aware of whatever regulations are required/enforced in the country of destination. That fact can't, and shouldn't, be overlooked.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 4):
True...there is no need for anyone to be confrontational, don't get me wrong.

No, no....I didn't think you meant that at all.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
In my experience, Britain is the most out of touch with both what the U.S.

But equally Cubs, that could also be seen the other way around.

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 8):
for example, one country has an exemption from the liquids ban for operating crew, it does not make standards in that country "Lax".

Correct, and I don't think anyone was implying that though.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
That said, governments the world over should look for best practices, and if the best practice is the same everywhere

Completely agree with you there, but there will by necessity be variations due to localised conditions.


User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12669 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 8):
The point I am making is that the UK should embrace and seek to standardise with the security regimes of other countries and seek to promote best practice, be that British practice or another.

No, I don't agree with that, security rules have many inputs including localized threats and national laws governing all sorts of things.

Yes it would be nice if countries standardized (I seem to recall the TSA changed the liquid limit from 3 oz to 3.4 oz or 100 ml to make that a little more standard???) but it is the traveller's onus to check the rules where they are travelling to and if they don't, their problem.

For the OP, I sympathise, obviously a bad day and I do think there is a different level of arrogance in the US with regard to rules on travel and within airports which sometimes expresses itself in fliers' behaviour - of course, it's usually the more frequent fliers who object most to rules that inconvenience themselves personally. Any sensible person looks ahead and avoids hassle ...


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12618 times:



Quoting Slinky09 (Reply 16):
For the OP, I sympathise, obviously a bad day and I do think there is a different level of arrogance in the US with regard to rules on travel and within airports which sometimes expresses itself in fliers' behaviour

I think at least some of this perceived "arrogance" comes from the fact that the U.S. effectively makes the rules for travel to and from the U.S. Is it a fair situation? Perhaps not, but it's not really fair to paint Americans with such a broad brush either.

Quoting AirNz (Reply 15):
But equally Cubs, that could also be seen the other way around.

The way I put it, perhaps - and I shouldn't have said it in such a pejorative way. But I do think it's true that Britain is less standardised than a lot of other places in Europe and the States.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12608 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
The way I put it, perhaps - and I shouldn't have said it in such a pejorative way. But I do think it's true that Britain is less standardised than a lot of other places in Europe and the States.

Which is sort of oxymoronic - we're as standardized in the UK as you are in the US?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12535 times:



Quoting Slinky09 (Reply 18):
Which is sort of oxymoronic - we're as standardized in the UK as you are in the US?

No - much of Europe (including France and Germany) is standardised with the States.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineExtspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12458 times:

Cubsrule - I am not meaning to be disrespectful, but in what way? I for one can hardly think of any.


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User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23014 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12436 times:



Quoting Extspotter (Reply 20):
Cubsrule - I am not meaning to be disrespectful, but in what way?

When I fly to the States from France or Germany, the security rules (at least the rules with respect to what I may or may not carry) are essentially identical to the rules enforced domestically in the States. I've not flown longhaul from Britain recently, but this entire thread seemingly revolves around the fact that that is not true in Britain.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineExtspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12334 times:

I just came back from Amsterdam today and I was checked in the same way both departing the UK and then departing the Netherlands, i.e. liquids only under 100ml in a clear resealable bag, no sharp objects e.g. scissors... What rules are applied to passengers, those of the departure country or those of the country which is most stringent?

Anyway, going back to the original point raised, if the rules are in place, no matter how against the grain, they will be enforced. People can bitch and moan all you like but in the end, as some people say; rules are rules, therefore in the end it is the person who looks stupid trying to fight (and therefore lose) against them.



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User currently offlineMd94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

Everyone should remember you are in their country (UK, USA, Germany, etc.) so you have to follow their rules, not the rules from you home country. Sometimes it is an inconvenience, but it is the way it is.


72?, 732/3/7/8, 763/4, 773, 744, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/82, CH47, F16D,
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12206 times:



Quoting Extspotter (Reply 22):
What rules are applied to passengers, those of the departure country or those of the country which is most stringent?

Those of the departing country.....because that's who's security system is applicable to board any given aircraft.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
The way I put it, perhaps - and I shouldn't have said it in such a pejorative way. But I do think it's true that Britain is less standardised than a lot of other places in Europe and the States.

No, I wasn't taking it in any bad way, but just commenting that it can equally be reversed

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
No - much of Europe (including France and Germany) is standardised with the States.

But this means nothing at all. As a sovereign county the United Kingdom has the right to set it's own security laws......the US will readily do it without the slightest reference or care to other country's.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
but this entire thread seemingly revolves around the fact that that is not true in Britain.

But this is what I'm not understanding about the thread. When departing the United Kingdom I don't see what difference it makes......it is clearly shown, and is public knowledge, what is/is not permitted. Unless I'm missing something I fail to see of what the remotest relevance it has to what any other country's laws are, let alone what your TSA allows.


25 Slinky09 : Sensible man. So what's your problem? Read the rules from the UK, as British people do (or do not) when visiting the US, and you'll be fine, no need
26 Cubsrule : Have I argued otherwise? You seem to be looking at it from the wrong perspective. You argue repeatedly (and correctly) that passengers need to know w
27 Slinky09 : Brilliant, I'll remember that next time some stupid TSA agent screams incompreshensible rubbish in my ear. I suppose that's one rule for us and anoth
28 Cubsrule : You're putting words in my mouth...
29 Slinky09 : ... and the TSA agents reply will, of course, be erudite, polite, flexible and charming.
30 Cubsrule : ...and again, you're putting words in my mouth. I've said nothing about the TSA here.
31 Mortyman : I remember last time I flew from London Heathrow to Auckland via LAX a couple of years ago. I'm a Diabetic and I use insulin. Since I can't risk loosi
32 Shamrock321 : No offence to our American users, but I work alot of American flights aswell US,DL,CO,AA here in DUB and to be honest some of the passengers coming of
33 Mir : Scissors, as far as I know, are not allowed on flights by the TSA. As far as the liquids go, could you be more specific as to what was wrong with it?
34 Bennett123 : Are scissors allowed on US flights?
35 Post contains links Lufthansa411 : People seem to be missing one of the critical words here... But that is the destination country. Most people don't think about security checks transit
36 AirNz : That may be so, but it doesn't detract from it still being the passengers responsibility. If one is transferring and requires a transit visa etc., th
37 Kevi747 : And no offense to any of our European friends, but I've worked transatlantic flights as a flight attendant for the past 8 years and I can confidently
38 Cubsrule : What are you talking about? The data copying by CBP? Again, I've said nothing supporting TSA here, and I don't say much supporting them elsewhere. If
39 Odysseus9001 : Slinky, I've transitted TSA-led security many, many times, and not once have I ever observed a TSA staff member scream anything to anyone regardless
40 Mortyman : Yes that is the way it should be, but unfortunetly I had a different experience...
41 Pellegrine : Why is this even worth discussing? People don't like inane rules period. Passengers need to realize that they have to follow them regardless of how in
42 Slinky09 : And therein lies the problem, if you are that dimwitted to embark on travel, knowing that security rules exist, and you don't check them in advance,
43 Shamrock604 : That's a very over simplistic way of looking at it. Most people are not a.netters. They dont necessarily know that these rules vary from one country
44 AirNz : None taken whatever, but my view is there will always be variations when you take into account the wider view. Every country has it's own particular
45 Shamrock604 : Ah, so we do agree then! In an ideal world situation of course..... Of course, I accept that yes, perhaps the US should seek more uniformity with oth
46 Shamrock604 : Not all of us.. I havent said one word against the US or Americans, nor would I. And there's quite a few more on here who didnt either!
47 Rbgso : This appears to be the best piece of advice on this thread so far.....
48 AirNz : Yep, I would entirely agree with that indeed.
49 Mcdu : I totally disagree with the above. Traversing the crew checkpoint at LHR is painful and the fact that the pilots are locked inside the cockpit with t
50 Brilondon : That is not an excuse. They chose to travel and they should be aware of the rules when they travel. Being confrontational is never a good thing espec
51 Cubsrule : One of the problems with TSA, I think, is the amount of local control coupled with a lack of accountability from above. Some airports (e.g. JAX) have
52 Kaiarahi : Not necessarily. For NZ flights transiting LAX, AKL security applies TSA rules (which are different than New Zealand's security rules for other depar
53 747438 : You seem to have missed the point. The UK does not follow TSA guidelines.
54 RussianJet : I think he realises that, and didn't state otherwise. It is reasonable to express a preference for one system over another, or staff or rules in one
55 Mcdu : No I have not missed the point. It is that the UK has missed the boat in regards to common sense and the rest of the world. There are not the restric
56 AirNz : I'm afraid you have, and by a long shot. Why are you choosing to assume that the United Kingdom must somehow follow the US in regards to security....
57 Slinky09 : That, unfortunately, seems to typify your posts which seem more emotional than factual. I haven't actually noticed BAA shutting the airports ... Abso
58 Mcdu : How many times is one of the London airports featured on a news broadcast with people filling the streets due to the breakdown of much of its infrast
59 Cubsrule : I think it's management quality. My sense is that the quality of recruits is pretty uniform (some would say uniformly bad), so it's not recruiting as
60 IADCA : Fine, here, I'll play the neutral jerk in this one. I've flown through 3 UK airports in the last week, in addition to rather extensive experiences in
61 RussianJet : Well, let me think about that.........yep, the answer is VERY rarely. Any airport is suscpetible to the occasional serious issue, but the way you tal
62 Post contains links Mcdu : The passenger sleeping on the floor has become a symbol for all things Heathrow. Pick your topic, Air Traffic Control, Security, Snow, Poor design an
63 Comorin : We're a rich country so we don't need to be intelligent On another topic, I think HM Immigration at LHR are the most graciousl people I know. I once
64 Ikramerica : People also have to remember that drug laws differ from country to country. What is over the counter in one country is prescription only in another an
65 AirNz : Then please tell me how many times, and about the "people filling the streets" because you really must listen to some fantasy news broadcasts? We are
66 BOSSAN : Actually, the TSA website says: are permitted. I don't know why pointed tips are considered safer than blunt ones. I flew today with a small pair of
67 Slinky09 : So, you said BAA shutting down the airports regularly. Example 1 - ATC : example 2 - ATC : example 3 - baggage system, total f-up, widely reported,ai
68 RussianJet : T5 is a given, and a disgrace. The other stuff you have found equates to: A couple of ATC failures, a terrorist alert which could strike in any numbe
69 Shamrock604 : Im afraid I do have to agree with Mcdu to a point here. I've also experienced the kind of thing he speaks about at London Airports, but only as staff
70 747438 : BAA don't make the rules. The DfT are responsible for rule making. See above. If you think discrimination is prevelant at LHR, you are mistaken. All
71 747438 : I apologise on behalf of my collegues.
72 Shamrock604 : It wasnt a BAA owned airport mate, so you are off the hook!!
73 Shamrock604 : This really isnt an area we want to get into. The UK govt was responsible for one or two atroctities in this country also. No one has clean hands in
74 AirNZ : Absolutely, and of course it is valid to question any such thing. However, there is a distinct difference between validly questioning something and g
75 Tarheelwings : Let's be clear here: the "US" did NOT fund IRA terrorism, there is no doubt that some US citizens of Irish descent sent money to the IRA....but that'
76 AirNz : Let's equally be clear.....that is not a matter for here and has neither basis, nor room, for discussion on a.net.
77 Post contains links Mcdu : All speak to infrastructure. Rarely has the events that were listed seen closing airports around the world. The snow london received was minor compar
78 Mcdu : Thanks Shamrock. It is a great discussion amongst pilots that I meet throughout the world that speak of the indignity and rudeness of the BAA crew ch
79 Slinky09 : None of which is under the control, ownership or management of BAA apart from snowploughs. now you might argue that LHR should retain a fleet of snow
80 Tarheelwings : Agree totally; however, since you weren't as quick to correct the poster as you were to add your "comment" on my post, I felt compelled to set the re
81 Cubsrule : Are there are are there not different rules for BA staff on the crew buses?
82 747438 : They go through control post security where the regulations are the same. Thats not what this thread is a bout. It's about the lack of respect for UK
83 Mcdu : Negative. I won't go into specifics here on the net but have seen it first hand. The BA crews are not treated the same as the US crews. You may want
84 Evomutant : It's his job. I'm inclined to believe him unless you have evidence to the contrary?
85 Mcdu : I do have proof. My MKI eyeballs and discussion with BA crews etc. I see it almost every trip to LHR when I transit there. My guess is that since thi
86 747438 : There are NO differences in screening.
87 Slinky09 : This is not my question to answer, however it seems we have someone in a position of knowledge: And I too am inclined to believe a rational response
88 747438 : Mcdu, I would like to know why you and some of your countrymen feel that the airport security regulations laid down by the UK government should not a
89 Cubsrule : One of his points - quite right IMO - is that the regulations that apply to him should also apply to BA staff. Obviously, there is some debate about
90 747438 : Not the question I asked.
91 Cubsrule : But the issue of fair enforcement is part of the answer! If the rule isn't being applied to those working for a British airline, why should it applie
92 747438 : I have expalined several times that BA crew are subject to the same regs as other crew/staff and passengers.
93 Cubsrule : "Subject to the same regs" does not mean "screened in the same way," though.
94 AirNz : I understand what you're saying and would fully agree with you if that was the case. However, they are applied to British airline staff and, quite fr
95 BlueFlyer : I don't understand why this issue keeps popping up so often when the answer is so simple: Because security staff have no error-proof way to know that
96 Cubsrule : I think a big part of it is perception, too, actually. In the States, many people who hold badges for the secure area are subject to screening but ar
97 Rameshksm : Without resorting to name calling and finger-pointing as to whether mine is better than yours... I agree. But personal responsibility is a rather elus
98 Rameshksm : As a brown-skinned man, I have the same beef with airport security in the US...so should I raise a hue-and-cry about the perceived injustice? Or shou
99 Cubsrule : That depends whether you want to go on your way easily or not. But the fact remains that such things should not be happening - and screeners should a
100 Rameshksm : Amen to that...and it is people like you and thoughts like yours that actually make it easy to maintain a dignified silence when sometimes subjected
101 Blrsea : My wife was travelling with her parents and our 2 month old baby on SEA-LHR-BLR flight. She had a 4 oz baby's milk bottle filled with boiled water to
102 Woof : 4floz = 125 ml. The limit is 100ml per container. They let her take the liquid through after the f-i-l drank a small amount, EXACTLY as it should be.
103 Eljonno : Simple: if you don't like it here, don't come here. Stop whinging about it and use the internet for the more practical purpose of finding a job that
104 Woof : There's a moral to that story. There are also countless signs, and now even people telling you beforehand to remove laptops from bags. Yet you are sa
105 Woof : Maybe yes. I'm wondering if there are other aviation related rules, not as rigorously checked, that you both disagree with and decide to break. It is
106 Kaiarahi : I'm not contesting the UK's right to make and enforce any rule it likes. However, this one is just silly. A standard baby's bottle holds 270ml, so at
107 Woof : But it wasn't baby formula, it was a clear liquid. All they asked of his wife was for someone to take a sip of the liquid. I would hope that any othe
108 Rameshksm : I know that they asked a friend's wife sample each jar of Gerber Foods' at LHR. And instead of opening the jars and facing the situation of not using
109 Post contains links Signol : Baby milk and foods are exempt from the 100ml rule, but you may be asked to taste it. http://www.stanstedairport.com/porta...ip^Tips+and+advice^Top+tr
110 Woof : Good on the BA crew. I fully understand that it can be damned inconvenient, but there is a workaround in place (sampling the food) so we're not compl
111 RussianJet : From BAA's own FAQs: Baby milk is NOT restricted to 100ml, but you may be asked to taste it due the requirement that 50% of such items are checked (D
112 Rameshksm : True. Or alternatively fly via FRA or CDG or Asia-Pacific (depending on your destination of-course)
113 Blrsea : Excuse me, what is the alternative here? Not all airlines will keep baby food on board. And if you open baby food jars, it needs to be consumed withi
114 Blrsea : Yup, that alternative is always there. I would avoid CDG too. FRA/AMS/BRU are much better, or one of the asian airports of course.
115 Steex : In my opinion, the root of this problem is the mismatch between what is ideal and what is practical when it comes to security applications. In an idea
116 Woof : There are plenty of alternatives. Here's a few I can think of while I type... 1.) If you know you're flying, choose a baby food that doesn't perish w
117 Kaiarahi : None whatsoever, as long as you don't mind downing half a bottle of breast milk. It wasn't clear from any of the earlier posts that DfT has the same
118 Mcdu : Are you denying the fact of the BA buses? Why should crews show respect or interact in a personable manner with the screening staff, when they go out
119 RussianJet : No, not 50% of the bottle; taste a bit from at least 50% of the containers being brought through. No big deal whatsoever, and certainly no need to 'd
120 Blrsea : Looks like you have never travelled with a baby, or even had a baby! ! Your points #1, 3, 4 proves that Yes, my original post was about water, but I
121 Kaiarahi : I'll take your word for it, but the wording could certainly be clearer:
122 Woof : Why does it have to be about right and wrong? Why can't you just accept that it is different? Just because the UK chooses to enforce different rules
123 Blrsea : One rule says you need to take only as much formula/baby food as required. If you throw away 50% of the baby food, you are left with only half the re
124 RussianJet : You do NOT have to throw away 50%! You have to taste a tiny bit from each of at least 50% of the number of containers you bring through, understand?
125 Woof : She'll be 3 in April. Not really a frequent flyer yet, but thanks for asking. In terms of my points 1, 3 and 4. 1.) Are you telling me that there are
126 Blrsea : Even we managed to work it out. We travelled with a 2 month old infant to india and back with BA. It is just that we don't want to deal with it again
127 Woof : I fully understand. I know it's not easy, but I for one am just that bit happier that security is tight, especially when I'm travelling with the most
128 Kaiarahi : Ahh - if only the TSA would let me drop 50% of my pants to check out 50% of my surgical scars But the wording could be clearer. In my simple mind the
129 Woof : You're right, if that wording is posted somewhere it is misleading. Here's the actual wording from the main security section of London's 3rd airport.
130 Kaiarahi : Thanks - no one's called this 56 year-old young for a while!
131 Cubsrule : Of course, the US model of not having to clear security at the transit point is relatively uncommon. ...but wouldn't you agree that whatever rules th
132 Rameshksm : Is this something that is quite feasible for cabin crew to do without jumping through a lot of hoops? I am not sure how the BA crew helped my friend
133 Woof : Yes, fully agree but I've never seen it any different. That doesn't mean to say someone else has a different experience though.
134 Abrelosojos : Congrats all. This is one of the most interesting and amusing threads in a while ... keeps me entertained on my 3 hour delay to EZE. I continue to lov
135 Slinky09 : It's not inefficient - it's called security. There's an assumption that if you don't follow the rule you may have something to hide. Call it extreme
136 Woof : To highlight that these rules on liquids are not optional and, even with all the information necessary to deem that the coke can in question was perf
137 Mcdu : This has not been about nationalism until you decided to through this barb. It has been about policy in the UK versus the rest of the world. However,
138 Kiwiandrew : So far as I am aware there is no agreed 'world standard' , if you are aware of one could you please provide a link to it ?
139 RussianJet : You mean other than the fact that the Department for Transport requires it of them? I agree that sometimes inconsistencies in the application of the
140 Woof : Assuming that "through" isn't the American version of throw... I didn't through it in to start another disagreement; rather to highlight that there a
141 Steex : Please don't take a single statement out of context; I already answered this in literally the next sentence when I said Besides, I was specifically r
142 Abrelosojos : = No. I was curious on why you would taunt the security official in WRO that way ... especially since you have been a vocal advocate here of supporti
143 RussianJet : Not to mention wasting perfectly good coca-cola.
144 Woof : I was thirsty. I wanted to sit down and read a book while having said drink. The departure gate was the only real choice. I couldn't buy a drink afte
145 Offloaded : I transited through CHI yesterday, and the TSA told a woman in front of me that they needed to look in her bag as obviously something had caught their
146 747438 : Actually, it's about. Some 24 hours later you have chosen to ignore my question despite being verbose in response to others. Perhaps you would like t
147 IADCA : Here, I'll answer for him: it's because he thinks said rules are ridiculous and are unevenly applied to some people and not others. He's essentially
148 Mcdu : Sorry I missed your question buried in the post. After reading most of the messages from the screeners here, it obvious that rational thinking is not
149 Braby : I know being a screener can be a tough job, however what hope is there when the rules for searching staff going airside differ so much at LHR, having
150 Cubsrule : Nothing - but we trust crews to fly the darn airplane. Can't we trust them to keep their liquids safe?
151 Post contains images Woof : You could work yourself up into an even bigger lather?   More seriously... you're probably not more dangerous but why do you need 4 ounces rather th
152 AirNZ : No, it's not a good enough argument at all. The United Kingdom has the sovereign right to impose whatever security restrictions it wishes, and curren
153 Mcdu : Why do we as crew need more than 3 ounces? For one we often fly trips that are 6 days in length or more. At my company we fly patterns that take us f
154 Kiwiandrew : This is the second post in which you have referred to a 'standard' as though there is some sort of international standard , could you please provide
155 Mcdu : If what is acceptable for a crew exist at EVERY airport in the globe outside of the UK it strikes as what is a standard to me. You are free to gather
156 Kiwiandrew : Thanks for the confirmation that the 'standard' you refer to exists only in your own head . That is what I suspected anyway since I spent quite a whi
157 Woof : Agreed (arguably EgyptAir aside), but you can't use the fact that something has never happened to deem that it never will, and so eliminate the check
158 Mcdu : Have flown to all continents and with some contacts in far corners of the earth I am comfortable in saying the UK is the ONLY airport that bans crews
159 Mcdu : Just imagine the outcome of EgyptAir had he been allowed to bring large liquids on board!
160 Mcdu : strike airport to read country.
161 Woof : Well the extra bubbles from a larger shampoo bottle might have made the crash site easier to find I guess. You do have a point, but it's not really a
162 Mcdu : I like my job as well as the next person. However, I am not compensated to stand in baggage claim and retrieve my luggage. For the airlines time is a
163 Iaherj : I would argue that crew bags should not even be screened. Without going into specifics, that is how it is done at several airports in the United Stat
164 Cubsrule : Maybe I'm speaking for myself here, but my concern isn't about the right - which I haven't questioned. It's about the wisdom. The U.K also has the so
165 Woof : I'm not saying I'm against this, but it is a security risk. That risk is higher if you include all crew (FAs etc) as they would not normally have dir
166 Braby : Unfortunately the bags are not just being screened for liquids, crew members have been caught trying to smuggle drugs into this country, should all s
167 IAHERJ : That is what passport control and customs is for. If they want to search my belongings I have no problem with that. The U.S. does often when I return
168 Braby : So we stop checking every crew members baggage, who may be carrying something they should not and hope that they look guilty enough to customs officer
169 Mcdu : Negative, that has not been the argument at all. It is about the UK joining the rest of the civilized world in allowances for crew liquids and contai
170 Lufthansa411 : Maybe we should do what almost every international airline does when you are purchasing a ticket through their website. You see a text box that says
171 Eljonno : Careful there. Personally I do not take kindly to the suggestion that we are an uncivilised race, merely because of some (overall) petty objection th
172 Cubsrule : In fairness, if I (from the US) google "britain airport security" or "uk airport security," DfT's site is one of the first few that comes up. When I
173 IAirAllie : So when I'm on a 2 week trip entering and exiting the UK multiple times I should have to repurchase all my toiletries each time I come in? Not econom
174 AirNz : Hmmm! we already do, the same as the US has always required them for UK travellers. Remember, a visa does not necessarily have to be applied for/gran
175 Cubsrule : Yeah - I should have been more clear (it seems like you're always the one that trips me up with details...). I was talking about the kind that requir
176 Braby : While i can not comment for your particular airline, what i do know is that every carrier that my company handles at LHR has their crew bags loaded o
177 IAirAllie : Bully for you. Is this universal at all UK airports? what about at the airport on the other end of the flight? Remember there are always 2 airports i
178 Braby : Yes, and for that matter most of the airports in europe so maybe it's time america got upto the international standard
179 RussianJet : Although in common parlance any kind of permission stamp or endorsement may be called a visa, the UK immigration rules make a distinction between ent
180 Lufthansa411 : While I agree with most of what you have said regarding this topic, the first 4 points you bring up I don't agree with at all. The airline that I have
181 Woof : Your post states how it is nigh on impossible for you to cope with the UKs liquids rules being enforced on crew, listing with detail why all the alte
182 Viscount724 : It's not that uncommon. If you're travelling wholly within the 27 countries of the EU (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland), you don't have to clear se
183 Mcdu : How do crews deal with the UK issues? At my company they go out of their way to schedule London based FA's on our LHR service. Every so often we will
184 RussianJet : Whilst I respect your right to dislike the rules, and believe me I find them pretty irritating too going through checkpoints at least twice a day (of
185 Shamrock604 : That's not completely true. The UK insists that you re-clear security. Here in Ireland, DUB also enforces a re-clear policy. At AMS, one also has to
186 IAirAllie : We don't need to. Why bring on the added expense when funds are so tight to accommodate one or two destinations on the route map. And in my experienc
187 Viscount724 : Yes, my reference to "EU" should have been limiited to signatories of the Schengen agreement, which covers most EU members plus Switzerland, Norway,
188 AirNz : I wholly agree with you there....if a passenger cannot take hundreds of dollars worth of duty free, why should crew be able to? I just don't understa
189 Woof : That's a bit like saying George Doublya is the smartest man on the planet.
190 Argonaut : To a US-resident UK expat who has been increasingly inclined in recent years to find fault with the various daftnesses inherent in the actions and at
191 Kaiarahi : Nobody on this discussion has suggested they should - the discussion has been about personal hygiene and grooming supplies in carry-ons for transitin
192 Mcdu : You are oversimplifying the issue. For the FA's they can be on board an aircraft to depart for somewhere else and suddenly be told they are being rem
193 Woof : I've never been in the position to experience this treatment so will happily take your word. I fully accept that this must be an inconvenience when c
194 Slinky09 : Well, you know, tough. The requirements are no secret, you obviously know them well but you dislike them. That is your right. I dislike giving the US
195 Shamrock604 : That's a fair point, but from the crewmembers perspective, surely the crew liquids ban is such an idiotic rule given the endless supply of far more d
196 AirNz : I find it interesting that, no matter what you refer to regarding UK security procedures you have no choice but to comply with, it's always that ever
197 RussianJet : Being realistic, how often does that really happen? Also, if it does, why not store that which you know you can't take at work or something? I find i
198 Slinky09 : OK, I recant, not using metal cutlery on board was one of the most stupid rules ever - wherever, that is, airlines served wine and spirits from full
199 AirNz : I'm not disagreeing in a general sense and will, without hesitation, readily admit that there are many idiotic rules in every country relating to a v
200 AirNz : I'm not disagreeing in a general sense and will, without hesitation, readily admit that there are many idiotic rules in every country relating to a v
201 Shamrock604 : Take out the flight deck crew, and then push the yoke down.....does it matter how the thing is blown into smithereens to your average terrorist? eith
202 Mcdu : For the FA's they can be removed from one aircraft and sent directly to another. Not sure if you are aware of the logistics of "just storing" toiletr
203 Mcdu : So you will support a poor policy just on principle that you don't want to be seen as joining the rest of the world....... With the exception of the
204 RussianJet : Well, patronising sarcasm aside, that would be a company issue then, wouldn't it? Hardly the UK's fault. Is it really more difficult to hand things o
205 Woof : No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I can see that it's inconvenient. I'm also not saying it's a poor policy because I'm not privvy to th
206 AirNZ : As I said, I'm not disagreeing with you in general at all. What I am trying to point out is that nowhere in this discussion has anyone proposed a val
207 Post contains links Kiwiandrew : I think that what a lot of people seem to be missing here is that one possible reason the UK has more strict rules regarding security than many other
208 Woof : You make a very good point.
209 AirNZ : Very well said indeed, and many here need to start realizing the reasons instead of worrying about being 'inconvenienced'.
210 Mcdu : Sir, it is not sarcasm, but you REALLY don't have any idea about how the airport works on the operations side of the system. Especially at the large
211 Cubsrule : Maybe because crew members don't pose a threat? The retort to that is at least partially that others may have access to flight crew bags (especially
212 AirNz : No, I'm afraid I would definitely have to disagree with that. I, and probably about 98% of others don't pose a threat but we still have to comply wit
213 Mcdu : Air NZ, You listed the police officer as an example. A police officer is not a member of the crew. Nor is the police officer assigned to work on said
214 Cubsrule : But unlike crew, you are in a class (passengers) that has posed a threat. AFAIK, crew has never posed a threat to civil aviation in Britain - let me
215 AirNz : They may be a separated class, per sé, but such does not give immunity to be above the law. UK law clearly states the amount of liquid that can be c
216 Cubsrule : That's a tough argument for me to swallow. It seems to me that when we start responding to hypothetical threats, we're on a slippery slope toward no
217 Mcdu : The exact same thing could be said about those conducting the screening process themselves. In fact they have access, opportunity and no chance of be
218 RussianJet : Oh but I do. Any number of potential solutions, few of which involve throwing your hands up and blaming enerything on UK rules.
219 Travelin man : Of course, do people on this thread realize that even the TSA does not follow the "rules" consistently within the US? In the past month of traveling,
220 SkyguyB727 : Unfortunately, some people perceive themselves as too good to read signs. Once, when I pointed out a sign to a passenger, he said, "I don't read sign
221 Kiwiandrew : Quite possibly , but I dont see the relevance of your point... this is Civil Aviation , not Non-Av so this is not the place to debate the morality of
222 IAirAllie : A lot. Every airline has airport standby/ready reserve crews who can be pulled at a minutes notice to fill in for a sick, late, missconnected or dela
223 747438 : A critical illness in the family has caused my absence, not that I need to justify anything to you.
224 RussianJet : Well obviously, but how often are you going to get swapped to London at a moment's notice? Also, if you know that's a possibility then maybe not brin
225 AirNZ : What question? Of course it could, and I wouldn't hesitate to agree of the many such possibilities which exist.....and thus why I find it difficult t
226 Mcdu : Negative. Let me repeat. I am not asking to be exempt from a law. I am asking for this particular country to form a law that is sensible. The country
227 747438 : I have double and triple checked with management and can confirm that without doubt that, There......are......NO......sealed......buses......for.....
228 AirNz : You can repeat, or disguise, it all you wish but the fact is that you are asking to be exempt from a law of a particular country. Equally, you can as
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