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SN Fleet Renewal, FLR, And Short Fields  
User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 301 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

This past September I flew BRU-FLR on Brussels Airlines. SN flies a RJ85 on this route. At the time I booked the flight, I figured that this was because it was a thin route and SN was using the smallest plane in its fleet on the route. I did not expect to only see Avro jets and A319's on the ground at FLR. When I got home and did some research, I learned that FLR had a short runway - and from what I knew about LCY, I knew that the Avros have very good performance on short runways.

As SN becomes more fully integrated with the Lufthansa group, I would expect that Lufthansa will plan to replace SN's 26-strong Avro fleet (14 RJ85's and 12 RJ100's) sooner rather than later. As SN does not currently serve LCY, I was not expecting that short field performance would be a factor in the order. However, what I saw on the ground at FLR is making me question that idea.

Are there enough short fields in Europe like FLR that would cause Lufthansa to make short field performance a major factor in its selection of a replacement aircraft for the Avro fleet, or is FLR an outlier and not enough of a route to consider when selecting replacement aircraft? And is the load factor strong enough for SN's Avro flights to cause Lufthansa to consider CR9/E90 size aircraft, or would it make sense for SN to downsize its fleet to CR7/E70 or even CR2/E45 size aircraft? Would Lufthansa even consider leasing 50 or 70 seaters previously operated in the USA for SN, or would they only consider new built aircraft? And could SN decide to go the Q400 route?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5719 times:

In the LH group the SWISS AVRO RJ100 will be replaced by CS 100. This most probably also could be an option for SN. They will be able to land at LCY because LX has many flights to LCY.

User currently offlineTFFIP From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Read that LH will be sending an A319 to SN to operate BRU/LHR
Is that an LH frame or a BD one?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Per a recent interview with MD Bernard Gustin he stated following regarding the Avro fleet.

Quote:
A decision on renewal of its regional fleet comprising 14 RJ85s and 12 RJ100s is not imminent, "but next year we will need to have a direction," Gustin said, confirming the airline will replace the Avros with an alternative regional aircraft. The Avro leases expire from the end of 2012 through 2014. He also reckoned that SN needs to align its single-aisle fleet of A319s and 737-300s/-400s, saying, "We're looking at opportunities in the current market."




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5668 times:

There is a lot of speculation as to what SN's fleet will be in the future, but for now the only sure thing is that some Classic 737's are being retired, partly in a bid to reduce capacity.

Quoting TFFIP (Reply 2):
Read that LH will be sending an A319 to SN to operate BRU/LHR
Is that an LH frame or a BD one?

I haven't read about that but it would be a nice development. It could either BD or LH I guess but then why would BD send it to SN if they can do the exact route from the other side of the pond. If there is any truth to this, then I'd guess I'd be an LH bird in SN colors perhaps.

Please specify a source as this sounds like real interesting news. Or it could be that SN will simply be using one of it's few own A319's on LHR service as slots are being swapped left and right among LH group carriers.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5642 times:

FLR is a demanded route in LH network with 5x daily from FRA (RJ85) and 4x daily from MUC (AT42/AT72).

Eventhough Florence is located in Northern Italy which is a strong business and industrial area the city itself relies on tourism. Especially in summer the city is packed with tourists. Its a city full of history and cultural background (also known as "the Italian Athens"). I think tourism ex-Northamerica and Japan is very popular.

If I'm not mistaken also an A319 can land on the very short runway which is surrounded by the mountains (I think Meridiana operates the this type to/from FLR). So when LH decides to get rid off the RJ's sooner they still can serve FLR with 319 and also the E70 has quite good short-runway-departure perfomances. C9 operates 2-3 E70s on behalf of LH.


User currently offlinePSPfan From Netherlands, joined Mar 2008, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5556 times:
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AFAIK the Meridiana A319 are equipped with some sort of high performance brakes.

PSPfan



Fixit002Heavy
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5521 times:



Quoting VictorKilo (Thread starter):
Are there enough short fields in Europe like FLR that would cause Lufthansa to make short field performance a major factor in its selection of a replacement aircraft for the Avro fleet, or is FLR an outlier and not enough of a route to consider when selecting replacement aircraft?

I doubt it's really an issue. Most new aircraft in the 70-100 seats category are capable enough of flying FLR-BRU. Also, Meridiana flies A319s on FLR-AMS and FLR-LGW; Cimber fliest a 73G on FLR-CPH. (I'm not sure if a weight penalty applies, though).

Within the LH group, they have almost every aircraft in the 70-100 seat category either flying, or on order:

Cityline: ARJ85, CRJ700ER, CRJ900 (on order), E190
Eurowings: 146, CRJ700, CRJ900
Contact Air: F100
Augsburg: E195
Air Dolomiti: E195
Swiss: ARJ100, E190 on order, C-series on order

While keeping commonality, SN has enough choice for aircraft. Especially the E190 is a highly capable aircraft and is well suitable for FLR.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5353 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
Swiss: ARJ100, E190 on order, C-series on order

This is wrong. SWISS does not have E 190 on order only 20 (+10) CS 100. They will replace the 20 AVRO RJ 100.


User currently offlineTomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

It will also be interesting to see what SN's plans are for the longhaul fleet renewal. It's 4 A-333s are about 15 years old. If SN's l/h network remains limited to West/Central/East Africa, new built A-333s would actually make great sense. I wouldn't foresee any need for planes as capable (and expensive) as the 787 and A-350. Especially now with the integration of SN in Star Alliance, I would imagine some *A partners adding BRU to their network rather than SN adding more l/h flights. I'm under the impression that say an Asian carrier (save for Japan !) will always have lower operating costs than SN that is operating from a high labor cost country. The only area where SN flying its own metal makes sense is sub-saharian Africa thanks to their good knowledge of the market and (maybe) thanks to a decent brand recognition.

Finally, I would be surprised that SN would restart BRU-LHR rather than seeing BD expanding on that field. I would be glad to hear that SN's crews are cheaper than the BD ones, but I'm skeptical !


User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4854 times:



Quoting Tomcat (Reply 9):
It will also be interesting to see what SN's plans are for the longhaul fleet renewal. It's 4 A-333s are about 15 years old. If SN's l/h network remains limited to West/Central/East Africa, new built A-333s would actually make great sense. I wouldn't foresee any need for planes as capable (and expensive) as the 787 and A-350. Especially now with the integration of SN in Star Alliance, I would imagine some *A partners adding BRU to their network rather than SN adding more l/h flights. I'm under the impression that say an Asian carrier (save for Japan !) will always have lower operating costs than SN that is operating from a high labor cost country. The only area where SN flying its own metal makes sense is sub-saharian Africa thanks to their good knowledge of the market and (maybe) thanks to a decent brand recognition.

Finally, I would be surprised that SN would restart BRU-LHR rather than seeing BD expanding on that field. I would be glad to hear that SN's crews are cheaper than the BD ones, but I'm skeptical !

do they have plans to increase frequencies on the given routes to Westafrica?


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4791 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):

This is wrong. SWISS does not have E 190 on order only 20 (+10) CS 100. They will replace the 20 AVRO RJ 100.

Thanks for clarifying. But weren't there talks a while ago that LH had ordered E190s for LX? Didn't this deal go through? Or did these aircraft eventually go to other subsidaries? (Augsburg, Cityline?)


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):

Thanks for clarifying. But weren't there talks a while ago that LH had ordered E190s for LX?

There were rumors for years that SWISS probably will get E 190 from LH. But this was clarified a few months ago when LH and LX decided that SWISS will get the first LH C-Series order instead. They definitely do not need both. They only have to replace the AVROs.

[Edited 2009-11-17 02:35:34]

User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4660 times:



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 10):
do they have plans to increase frequencies on the given routes to Westafrica?

There is talk of looking for and introducing a 5th longhaul aircraft to the fleet. At this point it looks like they will be after an similarly old to the ones they already have. There is also the issue of having 2 engine types in the current fleet of just 4.
At a later time it is expected that there will be some units from an LH group order destined for SN, be it B787, A330 (I think unlikely), A350, or a bit of all.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4549 times:

I'll think it will take another couple of years before we will see any fleetchange at SN's fleet. A 5th A330 is expected to join the long haul fleet but further then this no decissions have been made. And honestly I don't think any decission will be made before SN is a 100% daughter of LH. SN's cashcow are the Africa routes which are high yielding routes and it is expected that this will be increased in the future.

It would be lovely to see new metal at SN's fleet but I don't expect it in the next 2 to 5 years (except for maybe another (secondhand) A330 if they are going increase the longhaul routes). After this? It would be nice to see 787's or A350's at SN's fleet but I don't expect it soon...

But LH is always welcome to send a 744 (or 748) to Brussels, would love to see a 747 again in SN's colors Big grin But this is certainly something that will not be happening (ever).


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4529 times:



Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 14):
would love to see a 747 again in SN's colors

You know that technically that wouldn't be real SN colors.

Actually I'm wondering if SN should start some China flights of its own or if Air China wouldn't take over flying between China and BRU. The Chinese are very active in Africa and thru Star Alliance cooperation could become much closer between SN and CA. Also, China isn't as far as say BKK or SIN and some routes could be combined with shorter Africa routes.

I feel that the current Hainan codeshare is much more of a point-to-point proposition.

Brussels being Brussels, it would be suitable to have true Air China hardware year-round rather than just when dignitaries are in town.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4485 times:

Technically it wouldn't indeed be SN's colors... But maybe a miracle happens and LH may buy someday, sometime the SABENA brand when the brand hits the market again (keep on dreaming Bralo20, keep on dreaming Big grin)...

It's actually remarkable how much people are still talking about SABENA although they are talking about Brussels Airlines...

BRU-PEK is still covered by HU flying 3 times a week and starting from March, 28 HU will fly again the route on a daily base. So I doubt that CA would start flights soon. But you never know...

However, maybe we can see NH start some flights from Japan (in the very far future).


User currently offlineTomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4323 times:



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 13):
At a later time it is expected that there will be some units from an LH group order destined for SN, be it B787, A330 (I think unlikely), A350, or a bit of all

BrightCedars,
For once, I have to respectfully disagree with what you think. Swiss just started to take delivery of brand new A-333s (powered by Trent 772B EP). It wouldn't be crazy to think that SN would follow Swiss and renew its aging A-333 fleet with brand new ones, slightly more fuel efficient and offering a greater range, hence offering new route possibilities that should fulfill all SN's needs.


User currently offlineTomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4264 times:



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 10):
do they have plans to increase frequencies on the given routes to Westafrica?

Stylo,
I don't know if they already have a plan to expand their operations in West Africa, but let's remember that SN used to hold well in Bamako, Ouagadougou, Lome and Cotonou. If SN/LH were ready to "invest" in order to regain some market share left to AF after Sabena collapsed in 2001, these 4 cities could probably be good for 6 flights per week, basically justifying an additional l/h aircraft in SN's fleet. Sabena also used to fly to Lagos but AFAIK, this is a more competitive market where SN would hardly make money.


User currently offlineStylo777 From Turkey, joined Feb 2006, 2904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4176 times:



Quoting Tomcat (Reply 18):
Sabena also used to fly to Lagos but AFAIK, this is a more competitive market where SN would hardly make money.

especially when the mother company LH is marketing it as one of their best West-African destinations with daily flights!
Though, Nigeria with more than 150mio population and a strong oil industry should always be on the agenda of any airline (because of high yields...)


User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4154 times:



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 5):
(I think Meridiana operates the this type to/from FLR)

Yes, to London. Belle Air also operates the A319 to FLR from TIA.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4005 times:



Quoting Tomcat (Reply 17):
BrightCedars,
For once, I have to respectfully disagree with what you think. Swiss just started to take delivery of brand new A-333s (powered by Trent 772B EP). It wouldn't be crazy to think that SN would follow Swiss and renew its aging A-333 fleet with brand new ones, slightly more fuel efficient and offering a greater range, hence offering new route possibilities that should fulfill all SN's needs.

I can't wait to be proved wrong on this, and I believe new builds are more than slightly more efficient than the original ones  Smile



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3895 times:



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 21):
Quoting Tomcat (Reply 17):
BrightCedars,
For once, I have to respectfully disagree with what you think. Swiss just started to take delivery of brand new A-333s (powered by Trent 772B EP). It wouldn't be crazy to think that SN would follow Swiss and renew its aging A-333 fleet with brand new ones, slightly more fuel efficient and offering a greater range, hence offering new route possibilities that should fulfill all SN's needs.



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 21):
I can't wait to be proved wrong on this, and I believe new builds are more than slightly more efficient than the original ones

SWISS has, with its business seat, a totally new technology. The seat is air cushioned. Each passenger can choose his own adjustment. An advantage is that it is much lighter.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3717 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 22):
SWISS has, with its business seat, a totally new technology. The seat is air cushioned. Each passenger can choose his own adjustment. An advantage is that it is much lighter.

Well I guess these seats can be installed in any A330/A340 so it would help make even the current ones slightly more efficient, but the cost trade-off may not be worth.

It would be nice if SN could lease the two former OA A340's now owned by the Greek government, they could be very adequate for their kind of operation.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineOlympicATH From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3627 times:



Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 23):
It would be nice if SN could lease the two former OA A340's now owned by the Greek government

Actually BrightCedars, there are four of them, not two. I don't think this will happen as A340s are a higher cost alternative to A330s...


25 Kiwiandrew : Just curious , what routes do you see SN operating these aircraft on that they couldnt do with their A330s ?
26 Tomcat : Depends on the lease rate I would think. Plus, if SN is really looking for a plane or two in the short term and that those A-340s are readily availab
27 Clydenairways : Do they still operate into FLR, i thought this route was stopped a few years ago. Also not sure if this route still operates either...
28 BrightCedars : I think that the East Africa routes and maybe FIH would benefit from the increase in lift and range to, I have a feeling the A340 can carry full pax
29 Tomcat : In the near to mid term, I don't see SN flying any farther than FIH or NBO. Any flight longer than 9h would be difficult to integrate in their current
30 Someone83 : If so only in the summer. Last year, before their bankrupcy, I flew Sterling OSL-FLR-OSL, in a 737-700 operated by Astreus. OSL must be among the lon
31 BrightCedars : A longer flight can be combined with a shorter one e.g. to West Africa, utilization levels out over 48 hrs. I don't think an airline would fly to a d
32 Gkirk : How long before SN completely drop NCL flights, the schedule at the moment is completely ridiculous.
33 Bwvilla : Would they take one of the A332's that BMI is apparently losing?
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