LIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7196 times:
According to the Spanish press, Singapore Airlines is seriously evaluating the possibility of resuming flights to Madrid as an extension of current Barcelona service. Meanwhile discussions are in progress with Spanair partner aiming to finalize a codeshare agreement to get more feed for its BCN route.
SQ also confirmed that they will keep serving BCN with 77W thanks to positive feedback from customer.
If plan will get confirmed, it would also means the end of MXP's technical stop, replaced by SIN-BCN-MAD routing.
OP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7080 times:
Spain is under-served to Asia. And considering the BA-IB merger (which will make it less likely for service from MAD to Asia), the BCN-MAD add on will likely be very worthwhile.
MIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1279 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7080 times:
Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter): If plan will get confirmed, it would also means the end of MXP's technical stop, replaced by SIN-BCN-MAD routing.
It would be much better because the actual route is MAD-BCN-MXP-SIN and you can do the route with any other airline MAD-Europe-SIN with LH, BA, AF, KL.......
Some years ago SQ has service to MAD via CDG, with a B744, SQ could do now with the A380......
MAD has a very big lack of direct Asia routes. Actually just a few of them.
Goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1673 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7073 times:
Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter): Meanwhile discussions are in progress with Spanair partner aiming to finalize a codeshare agreement to get more feed for its BCN route.
what a wedding ! Spend one night at the Raffles and the following one in a poor motel
Australis From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 96 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7007 times:
Why the route via BCN??? For me, be much better just a direct route... get into Madrid early morning, so i can cache the early flights to other parts of Spain where i need to go....
One would imagine they could take a gamble and perhaps fly it non-stop SIN-MAD. I mean, i fly the route a few months before SQ scrapped the SIN-CDG-MAD B747-400 route and i think 40-50% of people went onto Madrid (now that was one day, perhaps not the same for the whole time the route operate) but there is a market for the route.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 43 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6992 times:
I would instead suggest to SQ to make full use of DXB as a mini hub and fly 3-4 weekly B 772ERs from SIN via DXB to MAD if they can manage to get 5th freedom traffic on the DXB MAD DXB route which no airline currently offers nonstop service on!
MogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6901 times:
Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 2): MAD has a very big lack of direct Asia routes. Actually just a few of them.
possibly a combination of weak ties and lack of advertising.
1. their only historical link would be to the Philippines, and MNL is not exactly a high-yield destination for such a long haul flight.
2. The Spanish businesses and population is split between MAD and BCN, and due to a lack of smaller equipment previously, Asian carriers have to either do a tag-on with no 5th freedom or 2 low-LF flights, either way is unprofitable.
3. IB doesn't even fly to a single far-east or south-east Asian destination.
4. When you have super cities like London, Paris, Berlin, and Rome right next door (relative to Asia), Madrid/Barcelona is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind for a vacation spot either.
I'd love more Asia - España links, but i still believe the 787 will be the plane to open those options.
UALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2331 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6764 times:
Quoting Goldorak (Reply 3): what a wedding ! Spend one night at the Raffles and the following one in a poor motel duck
Actually JK is not worse than, say, IB. Or than AF intra-Europe. Not particularly better either.
Quoting Australis (Reply 4): Why the route via BCN??? For me, be much better just a direct route... get into Madrid early morning, so i can cache the early flights to other parts of Spain where i need to go....
You can fly from BCN to every Spanish city of any relevance.
Quoting KL911 (Reply 6): Why would they end the need of a technical stop at MXP? If it didnt work nonstop before for BCN why would it work now?
When did SQ fly BCN-SIN non-stop before?
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 7): When you have super cities like London, Paris, Berlin, and Rome right next door (relative to Asia), Madrid/Barcelona is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind for a vacation spot either.
You would be surprised to see the sheer amount of Asian tourists in Barcelona. Probably it's similar in Madrid.
Rameshksm From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6754 times:
Quoting Australis (Reply 4): Why the route via BCN??? For me, be much better just a direct route... get into Madrid early morning, so i can cache the early flights to other parts of Spain where i need to go....
Or the AVE high-speed trains, where applicable.
I have to wonder if it wouldn't be faster to deplane at BCN, finish up Spanish customs and immigration there and then hop on to the AVE to Madrid, instead of waiting on the plane to take you to MAD. Any one familiar with BCN / MAD to explain if this is a viable alternative?
UALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2331 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6735 times:
Quoting Rameshksm (Reply 10): I have to wonder if it wouldn't be faster to deplane at BCN, finish up Spanish customs and immigration there and then hop on to the AVE to Madrid, instead of waiting on the plane to take you to MAD. Any one familiar with BCN / MAD to explain if this is a viable alternative?
Not really. So far the AVE does not stop at BCN, but at a station in Barcelona proper. Too much hassle. On the other hand, if you are in the city, the AVE takes you to Madrid in 2:30. To me, it beats the plane hands down.
MogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6716 times:
Quoting UALWN (Reply 9): You would be surprised to see the sheer amount of Asian tourists in Barcelona. Probably it's similar in Madrid.
i've seen lots of Asian tourists in LUX too, but that doesn't justify a nonstop flight to Asia, even if it's all-business class on a Gulfstream!
And here's an unique feature of Asia's geography - because all the major cities are practically on a flat line from Europe, they're poor connection hubs for each other (guaranteed to involve some backtracking). And few cities has sufficient O&D to sustain MAD/BCN by itself. SQ is lucky because they're right along the kangaroo route and connecting all the Oceanian tourists, but few people would do NRT-SIN-BCN for example.
Look at how few seats is between MAD/BCN and the U.S. (heck, Iberia doesn't service anywhere west of the Mississippi River), compound that with the convenient connections offered by QR and TK, and the non-existent Asian flights won't be too hard to guess.
Unless Spain ramps up their tourism marketing efforts in Asia, little will change, and any airline launching more nonstop capacity to Spain will be making a gamble.
UALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2331 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6647 times:
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 12): Look at how few seats is between MAD/BCN and the U.S. (heck, Iberia doesn't service anywhere west of the Mississippi River), compound that with the convenient connections offered by QR and TK, and the non-existent Asian flights won't be too hard to guess.
Actually, there are a fair amount of seats between the US and Spain: BCN to JFK with AA and DL, EWR with CO, PHL with US, ATL with DL. MAD to JFK with AA, IB, DL, EWR with CO, PHL with US, ATL with DL, DFW with AA, IAD with IB (now) and UA (soon), ORD with IB, BOS with IB (soon to disappear), MIA with IB. And, in any case, I don't see what's the relationship between the service to the US and the demand for Asian flights...
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 12): Unless Spain ramps up their tourism marketing efforts in Asia, little will change, and any airline launching more nonstop capacity to Spain will be making a gamble.
You mean like SQ with the flight to BCN, which went from 3xweekly to daily to 77W to, it seems, forgo the stop in MXP? Asian tourism in Spain is not the only relevant issue here, not even the most relevant.
OP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1678 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6501 times:
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 12): And here's an unique feature of Asia's geography - because all the major cities are practically on a flat line from Europe, they're poor connection hubs for each other (guaranteed to involve some backtracking).
I don't understand the point. Most of the main Europe-Asia markets (HKG, PVG, PEK, NRT, ICN, TPE) are East of SIN, so they wouldn't have to backtrack, just go North (like what happens on USA-Europe for a lot of people connecting through major hubs like ATL, IAH, DFW and IAH). It may not be ideal, but in the case of MAD there are not a whole lot of other options to Asia, and SQ can compete on quality and network reach with the ones that exist like TK and QR.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 13): Actually, there are a fair amount of seats between the US and Spain:
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6387 times:
Quoting UALWN (Reply 9): Quoting KL911 (Reply 6):
Why would they end the need of a technical stop at MXP? If it didnt work nonstop before for BCN why would it work now?
When did SQ fly BCN-SIN non-stop before?
They didn't. SQ needed a fuelstop at MXP. The OP said that with the MAD tag the MXP fuelstop would be history. At least that's how I understand it.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Fly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6091 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15): They didn't. SQ needed a fuelstop at MXP
Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter): it would also means the end of MXP's technical stop
MXP was never a tech stop. Full traffic rights existed between SIN & MXP. However, no fifth freedom rights existed to take passengers between MXP & BCN. Their 77Ws do non-stop SIN-LHR so they wouldn't need a fuel stop to do SIN-BCN (or MAD).
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 5): I would instead suggest to SQ to make full use of DXB as a mini hub and fly 3-4 weekly B 772ERs from SIN via DXB
That's an excellent option given there is currently no service on the DXB-MAD sector. Very surprised they haven't considered that.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5853 times:
Now why is SQ serving BCN, a secondary gateway to Spain with a smaller population, instead of MAD, the capital and hub with more people????
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
SYDBCN From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5645 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 17): BCN, a secondary gateway to Spain with a smaller population, instead of MAD, the capital and hub with more people????
I can't believe a comment like this!!!
Flights do not operate to ceratin cities bevause they hav more or less population, otherwise no one would fly to Frankfurt, for instance... Or maybe SQ are not very a very bright company and made the wron choice, and of course no one told them.... come on...
First Madrid city has more population that Barcelona city, but the provinces are equal in population. BCN is the most easterly city in Spin, and a Star Allicance Hub (with Spanair) so in this ense alone it makles more sense...
BCN generates quite a bit of traffi to Asia, equal if not more than MAD, cargo is a very important consideration and there are more export generating companies in the BCN area than MAD area.
MAD have Thai and Qatar Airways, so SQ made the samrt move to the the first airlline linking Asia to BCN and it paid off, flights are now daily.
I am myself on that flight every month and the progression of BCN originating traffic has been exponential. It carries mostly Asia traffic from Australia (the most), the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore and yes, NRT, japan in general. Most than 50% transit to other parts of Spain, Portugal and Southern France, even MAD.
The other way around, people from all over Spain, Portugal, France to Indonesia, Vietnam, malaysia, etc... then of course Australia. Quite a few business man and academics on theflght. Good mix. Tourists to Spain generally start their trip in Barcelona since the flight goes there. If the flight went to MAD, they they would start their trip in Madrid.
Remember as well that some of the asia traffic is for Mediterranean Cruises, which mostly depart from Barcelona.
Cargo to Asia is higher from Barcelona. MAD would be best if the connectios and cargo were with South America, obviously then MAD is a clear winner, but SE Asia-Southamerica traffic does not transit through Europe, or it is small and would not justify a flight.
The drawback of this flight for Spain departing passegers, except BCN, is the estra stop in MXP. Hence the need to deattach this flight fro MXP, so for everyone else it would be a 1 stop to Spore as opposed to 2 stops... Extending the flight to MAD would help, in terms of cargo and extra pax.
Do not underestimate the potential of BCN, it has more traffic and aorlines from the US than say VIE, ARN, TXL, STR, etc.. and airlines like LH, FIN, LX, etc... carry lots and loys of Asia bound pax from BCN via their hubs, even more than MAD.
Geography alone is a reason for this flight, the second is SQ saw the opportunity of being first and leading the market, they have set up a bechmark, now a non-stop flight would elevate them to a higher status. An extension to MAD can only help.
If MAD market was so good for SQ, why did they leave? and why choose BCN on their return?? good business strategy? stupidity?
RAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5501 times:
Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 2): MAD has a very big lack of direct Asia routes. Actually just a few of them.
Air China to Beijing; Thai Airways to Bangkok, Qatar Airways to Doha; Hainan Airlines (probably in few months) to Dubai and Hangzhou; Korean Air to Seoul; Saudi Arabian Airlines to Jeddah and Riyadh; ...
Few Routes? Compare it with BCN that has only the link with Singapore and charter seasonal flights to Phuket operated by Air Pullmantur...
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 17): Now why is SQ serving BCN, a secondary gateway to Spain with a smaller population, instead of MAD, the capital and hub with more people????
Sorry but this is a non-sense comment. There are some airlines that serves MAD instead BCN for various reasons as prestige, better connexions or simply decisions of the CEO's of airlines (as example, Iberia)
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
Aircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 532 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4477 times:
I don't see the point of so many stops. Let's just choose one airport and have all the passengers fly there on any Star Alliance carrier. BCN is home to Spanair and MXP to LH Italia, so they both sound like good candidates to me.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 17): Now why is SQ serving BCN, a secondary gateway to Spain with a smaller population, instead of MAD, the capital and hub with more people????
Hub of what? SQ is a Star Alliance carrier and Spanair's base is BCN.
Huaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1086 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4390 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 17): Now why is SQ serving BCN, a secondary gateway to Spain with a smaller population, instead of MAD, the capital and hub with more people????
Based on that, the Olympics would have gone to MAD instead of BCN and it would be BCN trying repeatedly to gain that elusive prize today. Obviously, there is more to it than just population or status.
As an Asian, I would choose to visit BCN over MAD as a first-time tourist to Spain. The Olympics did wonders to increase awareness about the city (I still remember that flying arrow in the flame-lighting sequence!) and about the only Spanish landmarks I can recall off my head are the Sagrada Familia in BCN and the Guggenheim Museum in BIO.
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
Rameshksm From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4037 times:
Quoting SYDBCN (Reply 18): Geography alone is a reason for this flight,
Does this include the proximity in relative terms to the French Riviera? Just curious. I know EK serve NCE from DXB and NCE is the gateway to the Riviera...but are SQ are able to tap into this market at all?
MogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3937 times:
Let's not lump the middle east with the far east...they're 8 hours apart by flight - hardly the same region
so technically there are only 3 *nonstop* flights to east Asia - PEK, ICN, and BKK.
and for those who think SIN is not a backtracking midpoint, NRT-SIN-BCN is 55% longer distance than the nonstop.... i'd say that's backtracking (it's north-south BT instead of east-west). On the other hand, 1-stop via Istanbul is only 7.4% longer.
Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 20):
Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 2):
MAD has a very big lack of direct Asia routes. Actually just a few of them.
Air China to Beijing; Thai Airways to Bangkok, Qatar Airways to Doha; Hainan Airlines (probably in few months) to Dubai and Hangzhou; Korean Air to Seoul; Saudi Arabian Airlines to Jeddah and Riyadh; ...
Few Routes? Compare it with BCN that has only the link with Singapore and charter seasonal flights to Phuket operated by Air Pullmantur...
25 Janmnastami: Absolutely right. MXP isn't a technical stop.
26 Huaiwei: I do not expect much of a market between NCE and SIN and basically much of Asia. That the only flights to Asia are to Dubai, Tel Aviv and Beirut (sea
27 Viscount724: MAD-SIN nonstop may create some operational problems due to high summer temperatures combined with MAD's relatively high (for Europe) elevation of 2,
28 UALWN: Ah, if only SQ had kept some of their A340s....
29 Huaiwei: You mean A345s? They still have them...all busy working out on the truly long-haul routes!
30 UALWN: No. MAD-SIN should be feasible on an 343.
31 Planemaker: There is also this institution that was set up in Barcelona by various levels of governments, including the Spanish Government... Casa Asia Casa Asia
32 LIPZ: Looks like SQ is also evaluating another alternative option, SIN-BCN-GRU with about 50'000 O&D estimated pax flying between Barcelona and Sao Paolo pe
33 RAFVC10: Sounds great!! BUE, BOG, MEX are now served with direct flights. GRU could be the next... Will be great to see LA operating at BCN but the question i
34 KL911: Now CX will start HKG-MXP next year, will SQ still have the stop at MXP?
36 OP3000: Like the OP states SQ had said they were dropping the stop in MXP, and that was prior to CX's HKG-MXP announcement. It may be no coincidence that CX
37 Janmnastami: There is a misunderstanding: SQ won't close SIN-MXP. SIN-MXP-BCN is rumoured to be splitted into two parts: SIN-MXP or SIN-MXP-XXX (USA) and SIN-BCN
38 Changyou: Proposed new service: SIN-MXPvv SIN-BCN-MADvv Rumour within the company: SIN-MUC-MAN p/s:SIN-MAN will be linked through MUC.
39 Humberside: If it means the MAN frequency can be increased again, then maybe returning to one-stop flights will be best to keep it going long term
40 Huaiwei: Thanks for assisting me to clarify. You may wish to add SIN-BCN-GRU to the mix!
41 David_itl: I seem to recollect that another place had it with 77Ws on the same frequency?!
42 Aisak: Then it would make sense to fly a stand-alone SIN-MXP and leave the tag-on for SIN-BCN-XXX. GRU would make a perfect addition for BCN destinations ma
43 Janmnastami: They say exactly the same thing in Italy with regard to MXP.
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