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AFA: Unlimited UA/CO F UGs A "kick In The Teeth"  
User currently offlineBioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12512 times:

Just saw this on Dear AFA:

"United had previously announced their intention to implement this program last month to United’s elite customers, and is just another kick in the teeth to Flight Attendants and other loyal employees."

Link: http://www.unitedafa.org/news/dearafa/default.aspx


Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12460 times:

Wow, it sounds like the believe airlines are run to please their employees and not the elite customers. It's a very interesting viewpoint.

User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12413 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Wow, it sounds like the believe airlines are run to please their employees and not the elite customers. It's a very interesting viewpoint.

Maybe it's just my misunderstanding, but I don't see that's what they're saying/implying at all, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I find it more interesting in that I can't quite follow what it that they are questioning. It's now going to be done by CS on the ground as opposed to FA implementing it in the air. Have I got that correct and, if so, what difference does it make? As I say, please feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding it.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12413 times:



Quote:
These upgrades will be handled by the customer service representatives on the ground before the flight takes off, and Flight Attendants are not responsible or required to implement this new policy once the plane leaves the gate. The upgrade program becomes effective in March, 2010 and applies only to domestic flights on a space available basis.

That's their issue????

Could you imagine the bitching and moaning that would go on if all of a sudden the onus fell on the F/A to manage the UDU (or EUA) policy? I didn't realize they were actively looking to INCREASE their responsibilities...

Perhaps someone can clarify this for me? It's not as though this will be taking jobs away from F/As, since plenty of UA flights are staffed to the minimum as it is. Furthermore, hasn't processing upgrades ALWAYS been the job of the gate agent?

Strange, especially since someone believed that it actually warranted such a violent metaphor!


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12393 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Wow, it sounds like the believe airlines are run to please their employees and not the elite customers. It's a very interesting viewpoint.

It is deterioration of employee benefits - we know that customers provide the revenue that sustain our companies, but it is difficult to enjoy travel benefits when all you get is the middle seat (which for a short flight isn't bad, but medium-long haul is terrible) or bumped day after day.


User currently offlineBioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12359 times:

I think the issue here is that it'll become very difficult to non-rev in F once this policy goes into place.


Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12339 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 2):
but I don't see that's what they're saying/implying at all

it's strongly implied in the title: "Unlimited Elite Customer Upgrades – Say Goodbye to First Class"

"Say Goodbye to First Class" in a newsletter to flight attendants implies that the FA's can say good bye to flying up there. The article even offers a solution of sorts later when it states:

"Flight Attendants are not responsible or required to implement this new policy once the plane leaves the gate."

This, strongly implies that once the plane leaves the gate the FA's could move another FA to the front if there are any open seats. So if the gate agent screws up---they do not have to go get the Elite guy and send him up, another FA, pilot etc could get the seat.

"


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12306 times:

First Class nonrev travel is a benefit of employment, sure, but not a contractual right. I understand the employee's point of view, I really do, but under such a system, the people who are getting the big seats are the ones who are keeping the airline afloat. I don't see any problem with rewarding high-value customers with better perks.

Flight Attendants are paid to ensure the safety of customers when there is an emergency, and to provide quality customer service when there is not. Any ancillary benefits are certainly deserved, but I have no sympathy if they are reduced to allow for greater revenue opportunities.

As far as flight attendant compensation, well, I do have a problem with that. Cutbacks with no givebacks and increasingly draconian work rules don't sit well with me, but that's a beef that needs to be taken up with management. I'm not a party to that.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22864 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12289 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 6):
This, strongly implies that once the plane leaves the gate the FA's could move another FA to the front if there are any open seats. So if the gate agent screws up---they do not have to go get the Elite guy and send him up, another FA, pilot etc could get the seat.

Certainly, that has historically been the case on other carriers; I've never seen a f/a upgrade a revenue passenger for anything besides an operational reason (e.g. weight and balance, or to seat a family together). I've seen gate agents come on board and upgrade elites for status, but never f/as.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12254 times:

CO always had this... you don't hear that FA's complaining ! in fact, from my experience, CO staff are one of the happier groups among the legacies (nothing really beat the upbeatedness of B6 and VA)

IIRC, a business should take care of their customers, shareholders, then employees, in that order.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12240 times:

Furthermore, the premium cabins on long hauls, usually the most desirable for employees and their families, are unaffected by this new policy. Since these cabins routinely go with empty seats, especially international F, arguably the best benefit to employees is untouched.

Losing a lot of domestic F nonrev seats might be painful, but it ensures that many top-tier frequent fliers remain at UA, and that's the prize.


User currently offlineTWFIRST From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12239 times:

Interesting... the CO/NW partnership never elicted this reaction, and NW FA's have, well, a reputation  Wink Surprising to see the employees of a company that was in bankruptcy for 3 YEARS would be bitching about this. CO Elites on your plane = passengers who weren't flying your airline before this partnership.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12234 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 6):
it's strongly implied in the title: "Unlimited Elite Customer Upgrades – Say Goodbye to First Class"

"Say Goodbye to First Class" in a newsletter to flight attendants implies that the FA's can say good bye to flying up there. The article even offers a solution of sorts later when it states:

"Flight Attendants are not responsible or required to implement this new policy once the plane leaves the gate."

This, strongly implies that once the plane leaves the gate the FA's could move another FA to the front if there are any open seats. So if the gate agent screws up---they do not have to go get the Elite guy and send him up, another FA, pilot etc could get the seat.

Okay, and cheers! That's what I was asking. When I stated "implied" I meant that I didn't see it as taking anything away from customers which was questioned in a following post.


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12224 times:

At my carrier we do it all the time. If an Elite forgets to announce as such at the gate to the Customer Service reps then they simply show us there card on board and we move them up provided there is space. Now if a non rev has already taken the seat and we are underway and they show the card at that point its to late. What I would do is move them to the exit row because there is more leg room and a little more space there. A consolation for not sitting up front. My feeling if your an Elite and its important to you then you should take care of it at the gate to begin with anyway the worst time to pull the im Elite i need an upgrade is in the middle of boarding or during the final duties before push back.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2071 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12150 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Wow, it sounds like the believe airlines are run to please their employees and not the elite customers. It's a very interesting viewpoint.

My view is that the customers should pay to sit up front. A couple of my good friends are elites on different airlines, neither has ever purchased a domestic first class ticket. Yet neither has been "forced" to sit in the back (where the seat they purchased is located) so far this year.

Giving away domestic first, or business or whatever you want to call it, is part of the reason that so few people are willing to pay for it. There is no value in it for most frequent travelers.


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12105 times:



Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):
I'm not a party to that.

Yes you are - just not directly.

Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 9):
...a business should take care of their ...shareholders...

Meaning they should protect the investment made by shareholders?

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 10):
Furthermore, the premium cabins on long hauls, usually the most desirable for employees and their families, are unaffected by this new policy. Since these cabins routinely go with empty seats, especially international F, arguably the best benefit to employees is untouched.

Any "premium" seat is desirable for an employee. What international flights "routinely go with empty seats...."? Recently, CO implemented an policy allowing greater flexibility for international "elite" flyer's to move up to BF - that also adds to the reduction of employee benefits. At the same time, because FC is so rare for employees, the company reduced the "price" paid to ride in FC.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12055 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 14):
Giving away domestic first, or business or whatever you want to call it, is part of the reason that so few people are willing to pay for it. There is no value in it for most frequent travelers.

The point is to get the loyalty of high traffic customers. These are the customers that allow the airline to survive each quarter. Without them, the airline would have an empty F section and nobody but tourists in coach. VVFF customers "expect" to sit in F because, through their loyalty, they actually are paying for it. And the airline deploys F seats for that purpose.

In fact, some airlines have been expanding their F sections to magnify this, and please more FF customers.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12041 times:

Indeed, after reading the section about upgrades for "elites" of UA (and CO starting March 2010) on domestic flights, I am left asking "...and your point is?"

If there is any issue concerning complimentary F upgrades that airline employees should take as a "kick in the teeth" it is the mentality of upper management that F should be overpriced by design so as to ensure that few if any pax will actually pay F fares so that seats in F can be made available instead for upgrades to pax paying coach fares who happen to fly lots of miles on someone else's money.

The consistently profitable and well-regarded U.S. airline (been around for more than 75 years, so guess that means it's a "legacy") from whom I retired took a different view, pricing F fares at levels that covered the added cost of service and 'real estate' with a substantial margin while remaining reasonable enough that it was not at all unheard of on our longer flights for the F cabin to have 100% occupancy comprised entirely of pax paying F fares, leaving no room for complimetary or paid upgrades...which didn't seem to "chase away" our elites who had unlimited complimentary upgrade benefits (subject of course to availabilty and the "pecking order" of the program)... OTOH, in my experience, more than a few holding coach tickets were willing to "buy up" to F for the reasonable difference in fare, sometimes even out of their own pockets, to sit up front... which was very much a win-win for customers and airline. Also, on shorter flights (~3 hours) it was surprisingly common for elites to request higher coach fares allowing for immediate upgrade, not infrequently paying the difference in the lowest fare mandated by their employer and the immediately upgradeable fare out of their own pocket.

So... if there is any reason for airline employees to view complimentary upgrades as a "kick in the teeth" it should be when airlines deliberately forfeit premium revenue by overpricing F to ensure that seats in F will be occupied by pax paying coach fares rather than F fares.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11845 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 14):
Giving away domestic first, or business or whatever you want to call it, is part of the reason that so few people are willing to pay for it. There is no value in it for most frequent travelers

The only reason I spend the money I spend on one airline and alliance for my company (over $185,,000) is the ability for my employees and myself to sit in First Class. There are other reasons too, but the point is that me sitting up front is hardly free. It brings in $185-K annually.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
The point is to get the loyalty of high traffic customers. These are the customers that allow the airline to survive each quarter.

Exactly.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11780 times:



Quoting Bioyuki (Reply 5):
I think the issue here is that it'll become very difficult to non-rev in F once this policy goes into place.

Been happening at DL for a few years now.....a rarity for an employee to get domestic F/C these days.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2071 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11679 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 18):

The only reason I spend the money I spend on one airline and alliance for my company (over $185,,000) is the ability for my employees and myself to sit in First Class. There are other reasons too, but the point is that me sitting up front is hardly free. It brings in $185-K annually.

Do you pay for first class tickets or do you pay for coach tickets? Airlines would be better served to lower the cost of a first class ticket and sell them instead of handing out free upgrades.

If I buy season tickets to the Yankees and pay for outfield seats, should I expect to sit behind home plate if someone doesn't show up for the game simply because I'm a regular customer?

I don't begrudge people for taking a handout when it is offered, just the sense of entitlement that I see so frequently from frequent flyers. Especially when someone else is paying the tab for them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):

The point is to get the loyalty of high traffic customers. These are the customers that allow the airline to survive each quarter.

Total up all the freebies and corporate discounts and many high traffic customers pay less per ticket than the people in coach that so many of you complain about. The high traffic people that complain the most are usually the ones that pay the least.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22864 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11660 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
Total up all the freebies and corporate discounts and many high traffic customers pay less per ticket than the people in coach that so many of you complain about.

Just out of curiousity, do you have some evidence to support this assertion?

[Edited 2009-11-19 14:59:53]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11597 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
Do you pay for first class tickets or do you pay for coach tickets?

Yes. And I often pay for full Y coach. I also do LUT and K on NW.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
Airlines would be better served to lower the cost of a first class ticket and sell them instead of handing out free upgrades.

Arguable. I would just go somewhere else. You may, or you may not, make that up. But, someone else would get my money if my employees and I did not get the upgrade. That's the great thing about competition, someone is always willing to give you a deal.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
I expect to sit behind home plate if someone doesn't show up for the game simply because I'm a regular customer?

Interesting analogy. Most of those seats are held back by the team and are comped. I have sat there. Free.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
I don't begrudge people for taking a handout when it is offered, just the sense of entitlement that I see so frequently from frequent flyers. Especially when someone else is paying the tab for them.

First it is not a handout. Again, I am a loyal, frequent and most importantly--a very, very loyal--customer. I am treated as such. Secondly, I have no troulbe paying my employees way. And if I have no trouble, why should you? They work hard. They fly long distances. We even get DVTs because of it. They ARE entitled in my book. If you work for an airline, you should be happy I feel this way.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
Quoting Silentbob (Reply 20):
Total up all the freebies and corporate discounts and many high traffic customers pay less per ticket than the people in coach that so many of you complain about.

Just out of curiousity, do you have some evidence to supportthis assertion?

I don't think he does, but it doesn't matter. It is really about the total spend to me. Not per flight. And if the rules are being followed and customers are taking advantage of what is offered, what is the issue?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21502 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11553 times:



Quoting Bioyuki (Reply 5):
I think the issue here is that it'll become very difficult to non-rev in F once this policy goes into place.

Bingo. Senior FA's at UA got used to thinking they deserve F travel as a perk. Now, I'm not saying they are wrong, because if that's how it's "always been" than it's what you consider part of your compensation, but, seriously, it's not listed anywhere as part of your package. Getting from A-B for free is.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
The point is to get the loyalty of high traffic customers. These are the customers that allow the airline to survive each quarter. Without them, the airline would have an empty F section and nobody but tourists in coach. VVFF customers "expect" to sit in F because, through their loyalty, they actually are paying for it. And the airline deploys F seats for that purpose.

And that these customers will often pay 50% more for a Y ticket than they might pay on another airline, if price was their only criteria, because they know they will get upgraded if they pay to stay with the airline they are elite on.

I do this all the time, and so do other people I know.

So this is the choice for the airline:

A. Sell all the Y seats, and leave F with open seats because it is only for people paying full F prices. Even at the busiest times, your LF is 90-95%. And more customers are left behind.
-or-
B. Sell all the Y seats and some F seats, upgrade the highest paying/most senior Y pax to the empty F seats, then sell MORE Y seats at last minute fares. At busy times, your LF is 100%.

Anyone who thinks an airline is better off under plan A doesn't understand business. But it sure is "fair" to everyone, right?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22864 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11452 times:



Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 22):
It is really about the total spend to me. Not per flight. And if the rules are being followed and customers are taking advantage of what is offered, what is the issue?

I have a tough time looking only at the total spent.

Is it equivalent for me to take fifteen $100 trips to STL and one $1500 trip to LHR? That's an interesting question.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 LH417AF025 : I've been on both sides of the fence, working for an airline, coming from an airline family, and now being an elite. I can 100% tell you that this is
26 CODC10 : How so? Should I vote with my feet and take my business to another carrier because CO does not pay its flight attendants well enough? A lot of good t
27 TVNWZ : Let me clarify. I spend no less than $165,000 yearly. Some years it has been upwards of $300,000. This is year, after year, after year. Because I do
28 Cubsrule : ...but there, the totals aren't the same. Is $300,000 the same if it buys 3,000 $100 tickets to St Louis or if it buys 30 $10,000 F tickets to NRT? I
29 CO767FA : This is exactly what I meant. I know most people don't think or feel that this is a course of action they are willing to take, but it is what organiz
30 Stitch : In the past I have benefitted from the generosity of FAs (on domestic) or CSs (on international) on UA when traveling in Business on a ticket upgrade
31 Cubsrule : You know, I probably should have qualified, because J to F on UA is actually one place I think I have seen it - but I've never seen it from Y to the
32 Joeljack : Isn't loyalty worth something? If UA didn't upgrade me, I would just fly whoever is cheapest or find another airline that does upgrade me. UA would l
33 AirFrnt : Gee. now they might know what it's like for one of their customers.
34 Mir : A very successful US airline believes that the order goes employees, customers, shareholders. Yeah, but this isn't going to just affect non-reving in
35 Stitch : They should still have access to the deeply-discounted employee travel fares. True, it won't be free, but they won't be paying anywhere near "retail"
36 Silentbob : That's the problem with the airline business, everyone has to compete with the guys selling $49 tickets or giving away the most freebies. No matter h
37 BillReid : Nope the issue is in the headline. "say goodbye to first class". It is that there will be no more MT seats with unlimited STAR UPG's. This will mean
38 CO767FA : Umm - no - if you were thinking that the employee's of the USA's carriers weren't aware of what it means to sit in the middle, you were wrong. I woul
39 Mir : Perhaps. But if that were to happen, I'd expect the airlines to assist with the cost of relocating their commuters closer to their bases. -Mir
40 CODC10 : This is precisely the reason why labor unions in this country have become an anachronism. Isn't this a classic example of 'cutting off your nose to s
41 DLMD90 : Are you serious? If a FA does this, they should be fired. Why does a non-rev employee deserve a f/c seat over a paying elite customer? THis is Ridicu
42 Cubsrule : I wonder whether there's a correlation between the ease of upgrading (think DL or NW versus UA) and the ability to non-rev. If your thesis is correct
43 Stitch : Well if you're traveling to connect with a flight you will be working, you're not going to be traveling on a "space available" non-rev status. I have
44 Lightsaber : That is why this being done. It used to piss me off how much a last minute Y ticket cost knowing that someone else was receiving the same service for
45 GayStudPilot : Get over it. It's free travel from point A to point B. Isn't that by the way similar to what we tell paying customers when they do not get their seat
46 Cubsrule : You are not alone - I have. NW got a lot of my money, much of it for B tickets, for several years almost exclusively because of the upgrade policy. T
47 UALWN : That would be WN, who says this explicitly, but this is a common mantra in most successful companies in services. The goal is to make the customer ha
48 Nws2002 : That's the way it should be. If you take care of your employees they will take care of your customers. Customers who keep coming back will take care
49 GayStudPilot : I absolutely agree that you should take care of your employees and they will in turn take care of your customers. However, the way you take care of em
50 Mir : If they're on a scheduled deadhead, then yes. Commuters travel space available. -Mir
51 Atlwest1 : Any airline employee with half a brain realizes that Elites get priority in upgrading first to Biz Class. 96% Understand that so dont generalize and
52 Silentbob : Some customers have unrealistic expectations and others will never be happy. Unfortunately the same can be said of some employees as well. Unfortunat
53 Cubsrule : Not dismissing it at all - just pointing out that most people who travel with any frequency are going to, on average, pay less than the full Y fare,
54 CV880 : At DL, anyone who commutes rides standby(according to their company seniority), not confirmed. What You describe is a positive space deadhead for on-
55 Lightsaber : Yea... the finances would look like the airline industry! Nothing wrong with 'taking care' of employees. But doing it at the cost of customers? That
56 Pellegrine : I think this issue is now almost to the point of hilarity. No where else in the world are either elites or employees regularly upgraded from Y to J or
57 CODC10 : How? People aren't lining up to buy F seats, but they are an important perk for a carrier's frequent flyer program. Airlines have the process suffici
58 Pellegrine : If people are not lining up to BUY F seats. ELIMINATE them from the plane, and LOAD UP on Y seats. Bring F down to ONE row on a 737/A320, TWO rows on
59 CODC10 : If you can obtain a revenue premium from certain pax by offering the seats as a perk for directing substantial revenue to a carrier over the course o
60 Pellegrine : Yes and I agree with you. They'd stand to lose a lot, and no one is going to blink first here. Problem is, when a persons travel is not high-yielding
61 Planereality : I see it (and its fine) on roughly half the DL flights I am on; particularly to JFK
62 ORD2PHL : Well wouldn't you know it, yet another case of airline employees forgetting who the customer is. As a 1K I cannot wait until this policy takes effect
63 Par13del : Since most US legacies are not making any money and have not been for a while, expanding the number of "free be" seats may not be a good idea, time t
64 Huxrules : Yea this sounds strange and shortsighted to me. If I was a gate agent and I had some empty first seats open I would not upgrade non-rev's. I would loo
65 TVNWZ : IMHO, they both are the same. $300-K of spend is a very loyal customer no matter how many trips. But, I can see the consternation. How so? An upgrade
66 SW733 : Ok...well this isn't Target where you can get a 15% discount for working there, this is a big boy and big girl job. Most people with office jobs and
67 AirFrnt : Typical. Union behaves badly, then finds a way to blame or cast aspirations on management. Complaining about customers getting first class seats is m
68 Tango-Bravo : To me there is a clear enough answer... whereas there will be 3,000 people who will buy $100 tickets to St. Louis within a comparable time period, re
69 Cubsrule : That's my sense too - but I feel like my example makes it a lot easier than the value judgments that airlines must make. There aren't many companies
70 CO767FA : Wrong- complaining about full fare customers getting F/C seats is absurd.
71 TVNWZ : So, if I take my $300,000 to another airline next year. who would replace me? I think this only holds up if every flight I take is 100% full plus 1.
72 Cubsrule : Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Say you are buying the last $200 ticket, and the next-highest fare bucket is $300. If you go away, someone who is
73 CO767FA : No it isn't - we pay via payroll deduction, reduction in pay, free hours on the job prior to flight(s), loss of other benefits. We get a discount on
74 TVNWZ : With $200 less revenue. Or $300 less revenue depending on my ticket. The other guy is not replacing me. He is in addition to on a less than full plan
75 Flighty : The best way to demonstrate that is to provide graphs of how many employees are leaving the industry. You are correct in your analysis.
76 Cubsrule : No, you weren't - because he wouldn't pay $300 for the ticket, but he would pay $200. When you got off, a $200 ticket became available and he replace
77 CODC10 : That's a brutally simplistic view. In this day and age, any measure an airline can take that materially increases the volume of high-revenue traveler
78 TVNWZ : And maybe several people didn't want to pay the $200 and did not fly. The fact still is Airline A did not get my money because I went away. They are
79 Cubsrule : I agree completely - but depending on how they manage revenue, it may or may not be true that you are irreplacable. It is true, on a less than full f
80 CALMSP : really?? in 9 years, I've never had a problem..........did you have 1 bad experience?? $15/one-way is nothing to complain about........and its free i
81 CODC10 : I'm not a CO employee, but my understanding is that Continental is among the stingiest regarding front cabin access for employees on international it
82 CV880 : I think the thread is more about Elites and front cabin access on domestic flights. As far as international, all the carriers have their own policies
83 CO767FA : The issue will only pertain if the travel benefit is completely elimated - that was the basis for my remark. BS - those employees are called "Manager
84 SW733 : No, they are called "salaried". The two terms don't necessarily go hand in hand.
85 CALMSP : no, they are called clerical, and Managers start at grade 43....(most start at 44 or 45).......however, there are a lot of employees who are grade 42
86 Bri2k1 : I would suggest that economy service on mainline carriers in the rest of the world rivals that of F in the US, somewhat for domestic but especially f
87 Lightsaber : Folks, like it or not, many services are bid against each other. Its not just airlines. Many engineers have to fly on their own time. In particular, i
88 CO767FA : And at what pass classification is that at and is it for biz or personal? SA1? PS0? Pass classification has a great deal to do with boarding order -
89 AirNz : With all due respect, each and every point in those four lines is completely inaccurate. exactly what I've been saying here for a long time. Well sai
90 Tango-Bravo : Nice try...over whose eyes are you trying to pull the proverbial wool? For one, last I heard, airlines are not allowed to carry a load factor of 100%
91 CALMSP : all the people who do not supervise and are at 38-42 fly as the same level as you do.....SA3 you're right..............when I bought my Avalanche, I
92 LoneStarMike : I have a question (and I'm not trying to be snarky - honest. I'm just curious) In your business, do you have some customers that are more valuable th
93 Pellegrine : I am arguing that this is one aspect which needs to be under review. And if near/last-minute F upgrades can be monetized, yes they probably need to b
94 CO767FA : Every employee should be SA3- date of hire when traveling for personal reasons.
95 CALMSP : no. socialism is not the way to go. we are not all equal.
96 Micstatic : Oh absolutely. And the airlines know it.
97 CO767FA : LOL- said the FOX in the hen house.
98 Pellegrine : I'm sure you read the rest. You know it. I know it. They know it. So......................$1 billion question.....................is it worth it? It'
99 Pyrex : Having to fly Coach? Oh, the humanity! Welcome to my world. You mean like the sense of entitlement of United F/As? "I work here so I should be allowe
100 Ramprat74 : I work for UA, and I pretty much gave up flying stand-by. It was great flying all over the world back in the 90's. It's a whole different breed these
101 Flighty : Fine, but you have to think big picture. Do you want to have a loyalty policy or not? Both are respectable policy. Having a loyalty policy has been s
102 Rcair1 : Agreed. Because I travel on business, and my company no longer pays for business, the only way a particular carrier wins my business is by going the
103 Lightsaber : Ditto. Think how it feels when one pays full fare... Loyalty policies boost RASM. The loyalty policies would disappear if they didn't. AA gave away '
104 Micstatic : I would agree that if it wasn't worth it, it would be meaningless. My contention is that the airlines know people will pay more for the carrier they
105 CrAAzy : Yeah - try paying $400 for that seat, + xtra money for your bags, + xtra money for some food, then getting a dirty look when you have to hit the call
106 CALMSP : how dare you ask for somethng like that!!
107 SkyguyB727 : That's exactly right. Giving away all the first class seats and giving unlimited, free upgrades to every elite card holder regardless if they are pla
108 Cubsrule : If the F seat is otherwise going to go empty, why not move the lower-level elite up? Most lower-level elites do contribute positively to the carrier'
109 LoneStarMike : How about charging a set fare for a first class or business class seat, but then give a discount off that fare depending on one's elite status. The h
110 TVNWZ : I pay what it takes to get into F. I don't necessarily pay full F even though I have. Okay handout to you. Benefit to me for spending lots of money.
111 Lightsaber : Many companies no longer pay for anything other than Y. But their employees are still flying full fare Y and looking for the 'best experience' within
112 Silentbob : It's already too late, by the time the economy improves it will be impossible.
113 Kanebear : This is close to what AA has done. Exec Platinums get unlimited upgrades. Plats and Golds still use 500-mile 'stickers'.
114 Bri2k1 : Yes, you are.
115 LoneStarMike : OK. Point taken. So how about this? Why not make those elite flyers who want to sit in first class pay for the upgrade with miles? And by that I mean
116 TVNWZ : I would follow the rules that are in affect at any given time. However, such a scenario would be far fetched in light of the competitive environment
117 Ikramerica : That's why I avoid AA and gain status on other carriers. Because AAs system punishes west coasters by the 500 mile increment system.
118 Lightsaber : I answer below, for I can only speak for myself and those I know whose behavious has been obvious. The scenario I described wouldn't have worked on y
119 GALLEYSTEW : Funny thing......just on the news today, the Government is looking at airline frequent flyer programs. Miles are expiring with little notice..........
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