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Ryanair Sets Deadline For Boeing  
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16604 times:

"RYANAIR will wait until the end of the month or very early in December to reach a deal with Boeing on a fresh batch of aircraft orders, Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said yesterday.
If no preliminary agreement is reached around the end of the month, allowing time to sign a formal deal by the end of the year, then the low-cost carrier will end its long-running relationship with the aircraft maker, O'Leary said, in the latest of his threats as part of the bargaining process with Boeing."

http://business.scotsman.com/busines...chief-threatens-to-pull.5842457.jp

I can't wait......
 eyepopping 


SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16585 times:

The question is: what would be the alternative? Airbus? Would they give him better rates? Is he willing to throw away the advantage of a pure 737-fleet?

User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5188 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16574 times:

So if Airbus and Boeing won't sell them aircraft who will?

User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3386 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16534 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 2):
So if Airbus and Boeing won't sell them aircraft who will?

China?


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16509 times:

And go where?

Airbus have already told them sod off, so i guess its a huge batch of EMB190s for them then!

Fact is A and B both have very large backlogs of planes that they are making money on. Why on earth should they take up years worth of production line space on planes where they are being "raped" on (MOL's words, not mine) when they will have no difficulty filling the same space with much more lucrative contracts?

More bluster and bullying by MOL - glad people have wised up to him. The industry is a totally different place than when he "raped" Boeing over the 738 deal they got.

If FR are willing to pay a worthwhile amount for their planes, then I'm sure A or B would be willing to do business, but they seem to want everything for next to nothing, and that their buyer power is the prime force behind the deal, but things have changed and there is no reason why either OEM should do him a deal like he got before.

Just pay what everyone else pays and shut up!



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19204 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 16484 times:

It is just a negotiating tactic. It is business. LCCs, like FR, need to exercise whatever power they can: they need to have the upper hand. When you have 200+ aircraft from one manufacturer, the manufacturer clearly tends to hold this power. FR is simply trying to leverage its power and to use it to best advantage. That this process is occurring at this point in time is clearly designed to aid in its pursuit. Of course, the vast majority of A.nutters, with the misguided notion of fairness at all costs, would happily accept whatever suppliers say and demand.  Wink


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16455 times:

Two options:

they come back to Boeing and pay what Boeing wants them to pay

or

they become the western launch customer for the MS 21



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16422 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
It is just a negotiating tactic. It is business. LCCs, like FR, need to exercise whatever power they can: they need to have the upper hand. When you have 200+ aircraft from one manufacturer, the manufacturer clearly tends to hold this power. FR is simply trying to leverage its power and to use it to best advantage. That this process is occurring at this point in time is clearly designed to aid in its pursuit. Of course, the vast majority of A.nutters, with the misguided notion of fairness at all costs, would happily accept whatever suppliers say and demand.

Nobody is arguing MOL's right to do play hardball in negotiation for new planes, but equally, he has to recognise that buy-in-bulk orders are only attractive to manufacturers when times are hard and they need the orders. Neither A nor B do need the orders, and so FR's buyer power is greatly reduced.

I dont dislike FR - i think they do a good job at the role they have carved out for themselves, but i do dislike MOL. Its his business style and his personal arrogance that gets on my wick - he does it on purpose and thats all part of his thing, but its not to my taste.

Fact is, he can moan all he likes and set deadlines till he is blue in the face- he wont get anything like the deal he got last time and that means he'll have to pay much more for his new planes.

Embraer and Bombardier could do with his order, but are their largest planes big enough - i dont think they are.

So its 738s or A320s - simple as that.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16397 times:

That's why I think we all benefit from the duopol of Boeing and Airbus. When it comes to selling highly developed and safe aircrafts there should be no "Arabian-market-"behaviour. Everything else would jeopardize aviation safety to a certain extent in the long run. Just my opinion...

User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5188 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16379 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
It is just a negotiating tactic. It is business. LCCs, like FR, need to exercise whatever power they can: they need to have the upper hand.

Negotiating tactic?? Given Airbus have said "No Thanks" to Ryanair, doesnt give them much room to negotiate with Boeing.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
When you have 200+ aircraft from one manufacturer, the manufacturer clearly tends to hold this power

And even more power when the only real competitor to that manufacturer has said we don't want to deal with you.

I see this as bad for Ryanair - They may actually have to a) pay a higher price for aircraft or b) fly older aircraft requiring more MX.


User currently offlineFlynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16338 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 2):
So if Airbus and Boeing won't sell them aircraft who will?

I read some time back (sorry I can't produce a source for this) in an interview with MOL, who stated that if they could not secure a deal for new planes at a cost they thought was ok, Ryanair would shift their focus from growth (for a couple of years at least) and instead focus on distributing profit to their share holders.

Don't know if there is any real truth to this or if it is just another way to put pressure on Boeing when they can't play Boeing against Airbus.


Regards,
flynorth


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25080 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16207 times:
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Quoting ANstar (Reply 11):
Negotiating tactic?? Given Airbus have said "No Thanks" to Ryanair, doesnt give them much room to negotiate with Boeing.

I have not read that. I have read this:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/northwestfrequentflier/archives/161312.asp

Airbus/John Leahy: ""We are not in discussions with Ryanair about aircraft. That is on the record. We don't have plans to enter a sales campaign with Ryanair, which would be very expensive and very time-consuming."

That is consistent with what they have always said - that they won't be used as a tool just to get a lower price from Boeing.

But it leaves the door at Airbus wide open for MOL to go to them.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 9):
Fact is, he can moan all he likes and set deadlines till he is blue in the face- he wont get anything like the deal he got last time and that means he'll have to pay much more for his new planes.

Many are saying that this is a buyer's market.

I know of at least one carrier who is saying they just got a deal that is "significantly less" than they paid about five years ago and Air New Zealand just said pretty much the same.

MOL's going for the best deal he can get. I really don't see the problem.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16054 times:

As typical, he is very loud and the result will be as expected. Boeing and GE will offer them a deal that will remain profitable for them - but a price that is better as if you order 4 of them.

My prediction: When he accepts it, he will shout loudly how he raped them again. If he doesn't accept, he will shout loudly they didn't manage to rape him. Funny times ahead...


User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15919 times:

This shows that MOL is a person who has no self respect and is actually trying to make a clown outta himself.
Why the hell doesn't he understand the he is not the only person who is in recession!!
2005 was different and 2009 is a different year!!.



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3549 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15907 times:

How many orders/options do FR have outstanding with Boeing ?

If they were to stop the sale of relatively new aircraft from the fleet as at present, bearing in mind that probably only 25% or so of the present deliveries are additional capacity. The remainder being replacements for 4 year old, how much would they be able to grow the fleet using existing orders ?

To me one of the ironic things about this situation is that FR, unlike many of its competitors seems to think that the airline should be able to make consistent profits, partly by buying aircraft at competitive rates. Just think of the many occasions in the past where the airframe manufacturers have made good profits from selling planes to hopelessly uneconomic airlines.

Anyone who in the past wanted to invest in the airline industry would have done far better with shares in Boeing, GE P&W etc, than shares in the airlines.

The industry does seem at times to give the impression that the manufacturers do far better than the airlines.


User currently offlineRafaelyyz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15894 times:

Let's play a game and help MOL in picking an alternative...someone suggested the MS-21. Good choice. What else is there...how about the Comac C919. Anything else? Hmmm, not many options at the moment.

User currently offlineEvomutant From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15855 times:



Quoting Rafaelyyz (Reply 23):
Let's play a game and help MOL in picking an alternative...someone suggested the MS-21. Good choice. What else is there...how about the Comac C919. Anything else? Hmmm, not many options at the moment.

Tupolev Tu-204!


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15849 times:

Baade 152, NG of course.  Wink

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Flieger Revue via J.Richter



User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16326 times:



Quoting N14AZ (Reply 25):

What about the Sukhoi SuperJet 100?
or they may go for Tu-154  Wink..haha



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineJetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15525 times:

FR still has to be able to sell off their entire 737 existing fleet. There's no way I see them keeping the 737 if they buy Airbus


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15393 times:

OK MOL you got your free advertising...but what kind of a/c are we talking here? the 738 replacement? More 738s? But yeah they need to take a look at the Cseries or E190 if MOL is true to his word.


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineHawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13176 times:

Ryanair's best move now might be to place an order for 50+50 A320family. Then in 2 or 3 years time they will be in a better position to play A versus B on cost.

If Boeing think/know Ryanair will not order Airbus then that does not encorage Boeing to sharpen their pencil!

Sole supplier is never good if you need repeat orders over time...


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12295 times:



Quoting Part147 (Reply 31):


5. With the A350 just around the corner competing with the B787, they can't really afford to say - "nahh lads, we don't want your business because you said stuff about us before" yeah right, Boeing will want every last order because it will LEAD to further business.

The A350 is actually competing with the 777, it's the A330 the 787 is fightning with. If FR wants long haul, it get's even easier for Boeing. B & A are the only companies offering useful products for that, and Airbus doesn't seem to eager to make a very sharp deal for MOL.

So if long haul is going to happen, MOL needs Boeing even more than he already does.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12278 times:

Maybe MOL is secretly negotiating with Bombardier for a C-series super strech with 150 seats  silly 


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8527 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12154 times:
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Quoting Asiaflyer (Thread starter):
If no preliminary agreement is reached around the end of the month, allowing time to sign a formal deal by the end of the year, then the low-cost carrier will end its long-running relationship with the aircraft maker, O'Leary said

-Who does he think he is? -God? Boeing will sell planes to FR at a price they want to sell them at, things are different to the last time they did business and I am sure Boeing remember the MOL 'we raped them' comment, not something they were impressed with I am sure.

The tables have turned this time, FR are not in a position to demand what they want, they will have to accept what they are offered, not something they are used to.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
25 Jamies80085 : Surely bombardier could do a good deal on a few hundred c-series 130s. wouldn’t they be good for FR on the thinner routes, or to increase frequencie
26 NEMA : I, and many others agree with that, which is pretty obvious yet, the usual a.net FR fans who comment on here still look to find a 'positive only' vie
27 Par13del : So Airbus is going to turn down a potential customer who will order and take delivery of A320's? There are many orders for A320 and Boeing a/c which
28 LIFFY1A : What about the usual Ryanair bashers and their 'negative only' views. They are not tunnel visioned, no?
29 Bongodog1964 : Is it a case that the FR low cost model only works if you can acheive low low prices when you buy your aircraft ?
30 Stitch : Per FR's regulatory filing in 2002 for their shareholders (who needed to vote to approve the deal), the "basic price" for their 737-800s was $52 milli
31 PlaneAdmirer : Are there enough used aircraft (737s or 320s) on the market that can be bought to meet their needs?
32 Evomutant : But then they have to pay for maintenance. Which they don't want to do. Ryanair take new aircraft, ride them into the ground for 3 or 4 years and the
33 LASoctoberB6 : Hold on, guys. Would someone explain in simpler terms what happened with the way the 738s were ordered? I don't understand the whole Ryanair-Boeing-Ai
34 JRadier : The thing with Ryanair is that they purely focus on costs, which is what they need to offer extremely low fares (which are then somewhat recapped by
35 Stitch : Ryanair placed their first 737-800 order in 1996 (for 45 frames) and in 2001 negotiated with Boeing for another 155. With Boeing announcing they were
36 SyeaphanR : My strong suspicion here is that MOL is setting up Boeing as "patsy" for a reduced growth strategy needed anyway due to the economic climate..I can he
37 R2rho : MOL has a problem here, which is that A&B are a duopoly. He already seems to have a bad reputation with Airbus, so that gives him less negotiating pow
38 Racko : Of course there are many airlines who use a sole supplier of aircraft and still have a great working relationship with the manufacturer and get decen
39 Stitch : And not a bad plan, if it is the case. Demand a ruinous deal from Boeing they won't accept, knowing that Airbus won't match the current deal with Boe
40 BlueShamu330s : I'd grant MO'L a little more business acumen and suggest he sees the end of the downturn and knows that if he doesn't nail a deal in the next few mon
41 Stitch : With undelivered orders and options he has just under the 200 frames he's currently trying to negotiate a new deal for, so I would be strongly inclin
42 Lightsaber : This might just be the answer. That is the other option. I'm not sure why Boeing is even entertaining a new sales campaign at this point with its ass
43 Tommytoyz : Lightsaber, How about the C-series?
44 SSTsomeday : It seems reasonable that if you are buying in considerable bulk, you would get some discounting because of it. But there are limits, whether he likes
45 Post contains links Mariner : But did he ever say that - did he ever use the word raped - or is it an aviation legend? I've seen it reported in various ways, including one with a
46 F9Animal : Ryanair wants a deal, and they will likely order more Boeing 737's. O'Leary is a tough talker, but a smart business man. And I could not imagine a FR
47 JRadier : That's what they said with Easyjet... just before the Airbus order....
48 Stitch : Well those were different times - for both Boeing and U2.
49 PPVRA : They are putting on quite a show, aren't they? Geez. But whatever they think is necessary. . . might be annoying some but whatever.
50 LipeGIG : That's an interesting issue. Boeing know that Ryanair will have additional costs if they add Airbus or other plane to their fleet, plus production and
51 AirNz : But, to be entirely fair Cris, although that is often much quoted it remains an inescapable fact that Boeing negotiated that price with Ryanair. No-o
52 JRadier : Oh come-on. Times are always changing, never say never. United would never go Airbus.... Easyjet would never go Airbus... Ryanair will never go Airbu
53 Evomutant : Who knows. But if they focused purely on costs, they would be racking up the profits as FR does.
54 Stitch : Sure, but with U2, they had under three dozen 737-700s in the fleet or awaiting delivery and Boeing wasn't feeling generous with discounts. FR has 211
55 BA319-131 : - Indeed Boeing did, however time has moved on as has the market place, despite the difficult trading conditions, Boeing (and Airbus) have a health b
56 BrouAviation : Revenue. Profit = Revenue - Costs, remember? Two ways to reach the same target: Profit. They expressed there will be very limited space for negotiati
57 Lightsaber : I believe for it to work, for FR or U2, one more stretch would be required. I also do not think FR would risk being a launch customer. This is the fi
58 Mariner : So why do so many airlines - from Air New Zealand to Frontier - think it is a buyer's market? mariner
59 BlueShamu330s : It is a buyer's market; just not to the extent Ryanair has become used to. I don't have official figures, but I'd put my head above the parapet and s
60 MogandoCI : the best planes for his business is still 738 and 320...... does anyone know if the E-jets have comparable or worse CASM ? let's see.... he's threaten
61 Mariner : If he responded to every internet fib about him, he wouldn't have time to run the airline. I have seen it reported as "we raped them" and "we raped B
62 JRadier : Well, Boeing isn't exactly offering that 50% again, and FR's orders and options will try up eventually... They will have to go somewhere for their cu
63 Stitch : Boeing might very well be offering 50% off current list. It's just that 50% off current list is $39 million a flyable frame vs. the $29 million he pa
64 AirNz : Now wait a minute, can you please clarify that? Are you seriously saying that Ryanair focus on costs, but not revenue? If that's the case, could you
65 Borism : I believe BrouAviation was answering the question about what are other airlines focused on if not Costs. Of course Ryanair is focusing on both cost a
66 Post contains links Joecanuck : Michael O'Leary: A Life in Full Flight by Alan Ruddock http://www.independent.ie/business/i...t-aiming-to-go-higher-1044083.html
67 Mariner : " target=_blank>http://www.independent.ie/business/i....html Well, there you go. I stand back. mariner
68 Post contains links Lightsaber : I admit to not being able to find the quote either. But anything like it? I recall MOL used to be very crass. It is the web video sites, not the resp
69 Mariner : Obviously, I need to brush up on my quote finding research - and there I was thinking, I was pretty good at it. Seriously, I am flat out wrong here -
70 Lightsaber : Ok, now you have me very curious. I searched sites I normally do not frequent that would have such a quote. The best I found is a book that reference
71 VV701 : No. The picture from where MOL sits in Duiblin looks very different. On 1 February 2002 there were 1.1218 Euros to one US $. So $66 million equated t
72 Mariner : I'm using the link in post #66, from the Independent (Irish) newspaper. It is direct, in quotation marks, preceded by "afterwards he said." I suspect
73 Lightsaber : Talk firearms with them... its even more of a shock to them! Missed it, thank you. Lightsaber
74 Post contains links BrouAviation : Yes, that is what I'm saying. Remember, of course they monitor their revenue, but their main focus is keeping the costs as low as possible. Other air
75 Babybus : I don't think FR could afford that number of Airbuses. They should wait for a Boeing deal or better still give some of those new'ish Russian aircraft
76 Voodoo : My guess if Boeing calls MOL's bluff: Reduce capacity fleetwide.... E-195s in combo with a Flybe buyout.
77 AirNZ : There is nothing difficult whatever about it, except you are trying to imply that FR focusses differently from other airlines, and which is absolute
78 AirCatalonia : Is there a real possibility that Ryanair orders the Chinese plane?
79 Stitch : Well then if Boeing is offering FR a better deal then they received in 2002 thanks to currency fluctuations (which benefit him for the 200 orders plu
80 BrouAviation : You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? FR is a low COST carrier, so YES, their focus is different compared to other airlines lik
81 AirNZ : I know exactly what I'm talking about, but trying to figure out if you do. The fact of FR being an LCC has no bearing that their focus is solely on t
82 BrouAviation : I never said their focus was solely on costs, I have said their focus was primarily on the costs. And I still think that's correct. I didn't! What a
83 AirNZ : The facts are correct....I said consistently profitable, not that they have NEVER made a loss! I have asked you to clarify what the word consistently
84 Woof : Come on, let's be a little reasonable and not have a pissing match for the sake of it. Given that AF don't fly the 737 and FR only fly the 737 your q
85 L410Turbolet : You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. Not everyone is an aviation enthusiast remember...
86 Lightsaber : No. It is far too small for their needs. If you are referring to the C919, it is very unlikely. We've been discussing their 2003 order that was known
87 Babybus : Yes I do, I lived in your country for several years. MOL said that himself and on many occassions too. He does pay less for his aircraft than any oth
88 LMML 14/32 : .......Valencia, Manchester, Malmo, Boeing, Airbus....... No doubt the list will grow longer.
89 AirNZ : That's fair enough.....so then, why can any one of you not seem to back up your claims on this matter yet are definitively stating as absolute fact w
90 Bongodog1964 : We seem to be getting into fantasy land in this thread, with people being 100% sure that FR pays less for aircraft than anyone else, plus some even th
91 Woof : Why would it be a very good deal if it was not less than the majority of others? I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but the comments you
92 VV701 : Is that you? It is certainly not me. I have no idea what FR paid in 2003. I have no idea what Boeing might be offering MOL today. But the fact is tha
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