Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Lion Air To Buy 777s Or A330s  
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13414 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...air-to-order-10-15-widebodies.html

"Lion plans to order 10-15 widebodies and is interested in Airbus A330-300s and Boeing 777-200ERs, says Lion Air president Rusdi Kirana."

First deliveries in 2011.

The reference to 777-200ERs is interesting. These can hardly be new-build aircraft, surely? Ex-SQ perhaps?

On the other hand, I think the A330s might be new-build. Where would Lion Air pick up a dozen used A330-300s?

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5890 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13408 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
The reference to 777-200ERs is interesting. These can hardly be new-build aircraft, surely? Ex-SQ perhaps?

Why do you think that Lion Air would not be able to acquire new 777-200ER's? They are still in production.


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5312 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13384 times:

If they could fill all-economy, 10Y 777-200ERs, that would be *quite* the low CASM people mover.

The A330 only has the advantage if there isn't enough demand to fill the 777-200ER or if they go 9Y.


User currently offlineTravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13379 times:

On short domestics hops though.

If they are flying to just Asia destinations you would think the A330-200's would be the aircraft best suited to the role?

I know Lion Air has been heavily criticised in the past, but should we start taking this airline seriously?  Smile


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13382 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
They are still in production.

Absolutely!  Big grin

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
Why do you think that Lion Air would not be able to acquire new 777-200ER's?

They'd "be able" to but I doubt if they'd want to. Why? Because it's more plane than they need for the operations described in the article. And because they are starting to come on the second-hand market. And because there have been no new customers for the 777-200ER for over four years. It just seems unlikely.

Though I'd be happy to be proved wrong!


User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13309 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 2):
If they could fill all-economy, 10Y 777-200ERs, that would be *quite* the low CASM people mover.

The A330 only has the advantage if there isn't enough demand to fill the 777-200ER or if they go 9Y.

The 333 beats the CASM for the 772 at similar seating density.

Quoting Travelhound (Reply 3):
On short domestics hops though.

If they are flying to just Asia destinations you would think the A330-200's would be the aircraft best suited to the role?

Do you mean due to size or range?
The A333 comfortably reaches all over Asia from CGK.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13138 times:

What happened to the 744's that Lion Air bought?


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13092 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
What happened to the 744's that Lion Air bought?

They are currently flying Jakarta-Jeddah according to the same article in flightglobal.  Smile



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineOykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2725 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13093 times:



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
The reference to 777-200ERs is interesting.

 checkmark  It has been a long time since they have been evaluated simultaneously. Could the long term relationship with Boeing come in to play here? If they uses a high density 440 seat 777 will it offer larger seats than 440 seats on the A333? How is the floor area in both planes?

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 5):
The 333 beats the CASM for the 772 at similar seating density.

 checkmark  The A333 is an amazing airplane!



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13026 times:

The article says the number of 739ERs is in the twenties - was it going to be up to 200 aircraft at one stage?

If they are going second hand, and they only want to fly 777s around Asia, are the Cathay 777-200A aircraft still available? A330-300s or some 777s could make East Coast Australia from Bali.

It was a plan at one stage for some Lion Air 739s to be operated by SkyAirWorld or Australia.


User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12966 times:

Has to be new builds I'd think. How could you "order" a used aircraft??? I think this is Boeings to loose. Think they'd be a Launch Customer for and "improved" 777-200ER that has a lot of updates?

Desmond in ILM,



Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12922 times:



Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 10):
Think they'd be a Launch Customer for and "improved" 777-200ER that has a lot of updates?

Hard to see why Boeing would spend much to update it. What it was designed to do (and what it did very well) can now be done better by the 777-200LR. But no amount of updates will make the 777-200ER a better medium-range people mover than the A330-300.

Nor do Boeing have a lot of spare engineers right now to work on such a project. If they have staff and money to put into a 777 ugrade they should be improving the 777-300ER. They stand to get a much better return on that investment.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12847 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 2):
The A330 only has the advantage if there isn't enough demand to fill the 777-200ER or if they go 9Y.

The "laws" say that this belongs to the A330-300....

Remember the "Laws"?  pray  ("Praise the laws")..

You know
*Smaller plane with same CASM kills larger plane with same CASM
*Smaller plane begets better RASM
*Anything that has wings kills the A380, even if it doesn't have engines  Wink ......
etc.......

I know nothing about Lion Air's markets, but I suspect it depends on what they want to serve, and how.
The 772ER has a significant advantage where it's much greater range/payload tells.
But anywhere where the A330-300 is comfortably in its range-payload zone, why would you fly a 772ER?

Rgds


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12846 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PM (Reply 11):
But no amount of updates will make the 777-200ER a better medium-range people mover than the A330-300.

I agree. That is why the B787 is going to be out there making life a lot more difficult for the A330. So I guess the A333 is most likely the way they will go, unless Boeing sweetens the order with some attractive conditions. It is not a done deal yet.  Wink


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3374 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12739 times:



Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 9):
The article says the number of 739ERs is in the twenties - was it going to be up to 200 aircraft at one stage?

IIRC they've ordered a total of 175 of which they hope to have 30 delivered by the end of this year so nearly 200 is their eventual target.


User currently offlineTravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12651 times:



Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 5):
Do you mean due to size or range?
The A333 comfortably reaches all over Asia from CGK.

Yes, I was thinking that the 300 series could do all of Asia as well, just the 200 series is a little bit more flexible if they decide on other routes (outside of Asia) where range is required.

Who, knows what their plans are? Maybe they've got plans for a fleet of 748's as well.  Big grin


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12582 times:



Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 7):
They are currently flying Jakarta-Jeddah according to the same article in flightglobal.

Oops...  Embarrassment Thanks... normally I do read the linked articles, but I didn't have the time this morning. Thanks for your answer anyway!

Either way, looks like GA will get some serious competition, not only domestic, but also international.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12351 times:

G'day

With a decision in the first quarter of next year and first deliveries in 2011 neither A nor B has any time for updates.

With airlines out there replacing the B 777 ER's with A 333's the choice seems obvious.

But you cannot just dangle the carrot, you also must show the stick - if you want competitive pricing you have to show an alternative, even if that alternatiuve is less desirable. Big grin

What it all boils down to at the end is price and availability.


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12332 times:



Quoting Travelhound (Reply 3):
I know Lion Air has been heavily criticised in the past, but should we start taking this airline seriously? Smile

I also thought the same when I read the thread title.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12260 times:

5500nm and 7500nm ranges from jakarta.



It seems A330s can cover all Asia / Middle East / East Afrika, they have the same passenger capasity & weight 20t lighter then the 777-200ER. Operating costs are much lower accordingly.

If they want to fly to Europe non stop they'll a longer ranged aircraft like the 777. (Asia operates A330s to Europe with stop, any US flight needs a stop)


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12150 times:

Article says its for domestic and regional flights, and sounds like they would go for new planes. For domestic a 772ER is too much plane as its longhaul ability would be wasted but its additional weight over the "A" still to be paid and carried.
Arent nowadays new A333s often preferred over the 772? The Airbus is also considerably cheaper.

If they want to aquire 777ERs over a longer period of time, say 2011 - 2014, a deal with SQ could indeed be working, as they are going to sell/lease out some and are just starting to do so. Biman is reported to receive 3 over the winter.

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 9):
If they are going second hand, and they only want to fly 777s around Asia, are the Cathay 777-200A aircraft still available? A330-300s or some 777s could make East Coast Australia from Bali.

Yes, no one wanted them yet. Two years search, no interested reported. Same goes to the China Southern 772As.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12119 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 20):

Arent nowadays new A333s often preferred over the 772? The Airbus is also considerably cheaper.

Indeed, but you should keep in mind that the current Airbus 333E offers considerably more range than the earlier versions. IIRC, one of the key reasons is that the 333 can now be equipped with an additional center tank, which wasn't possible on earlier versions. The 333 is thereby a very capable aircraft now.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):

If they want to fly to Europe non stop they'll a longer ranged aircraft like the 777. (Asia operates A330s to Europe with stop, any US flight needs a stop)

777-200ERs cannot make CGK-Western Europe easy either. At least not without a serious load penalty. The -300ER and -200LR can do it economically.

Even if they want to provide service to Europe, and if they want to compete on costs, they'll probably make a fuel stop in DXB or SHJ anyways.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 17):

What it all boils down to at the end is price and availability.

Absolutely true.

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 10):
How could you "order" a used aircraft???

How would you name it, then? It's well possible to make an agreement with a leasing company to receive certain used aircraft after their current lease contract expires. I'd call that "ordering" too. Or what about aircraft in storage, that need a maintenance check and refurbishment before delivery?

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 10):
Think they'd be a Launch Customer for and "improved" 777-200ER that has a lot of updates?

The improved 777-200ER is called 787-9.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 13):
I agree. That is why the B787 is going to be out there making life a lot more difficult for the A330

The A330 wouldn't have sold as good as it's doing now, if the 787 development had been on schedule.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12027 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Joost (Reply 21):
IIRC, one of the key reasons is that the 333 can now be equipped with an additional center tank, which wasn't possible on earlier versions.

I hadn't heard that, and I don't actually think it's correct.
Do you have any links, because I'd be very interested in that development if it was true.
It would make a 238t A333 well worthwhile  Smile
But as I said, I don't think it is correct.

Rgds


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11928 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 21):
Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 10):
Think they'd be a Launch Customer for and "improved" 777-200ER that has a lot of updates?

The improved 777-200ER is called 787-9.

Indeed. With that plane eventually flying any penny spend invested in further developing the 772 (F and LR excepted of cause) is a waste.


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5312 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 11723 times:



Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 5):
The 333 beats the CASM for the 772 at similar seating density.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
The "laws" say that this belongs to the A330-300....

These numbers are assuming a 9Y 772. I feel absolutely sure Lion would run any 772 they purchase at 10Y, which changes things quite a lot in an all-Y configuration. I don't think that they would run an A333 at 9Y (but if I'm wrong, then... I'm wrong...  Smile )

Agreed that the smaller aircraft (A333) would give them more flexibility, though.


25 Post contains links Joost : It looks like you are right and I'm wrong. I seemed to remember that I've read somewhere that Airbus was offering the 332 center tank also as an opti
26 PlaneHunter : And while the sermon about these "unwanted" planes is repeated in every 777 thread, the original operators still keep them active... PH
27 Burkhard : If their destinations are within southern or eastern Asia the A333 is the right aircraft for them. Used 772A would be too. The 772ER is too much aircr
28 Manfredj : An airline who will see an eventual fleet of 200+ aircraft? I'd say they are quite serious. Why aren't they considering the 763/4 against the 330 the
29 Joost : On the second hand market, 763s can be quite attractive. But when ordering new aircraft, their attractiveness is limited. Because of the low populari
30 Astuteman : Because they're not the same size? Both the A330-300 and 772ER are nominal 300 seaters. Don't know if that answers your question. Rgds
31 Stitch : Even at 10 abreast I expect the A330-300 would have better economics for A market and low-end B market missions than a 777-200ER. Boeing could probabl
32 EPA001 : Oops, for a second I thought you were thinking about 10-abreast in an A330. I had to read it twice before I understood what you meant with this post.
33 SEPilot : From what I read about Lion Air, it seems they have a marked preference for Boeing; why, I have no idea (not that I think that's a bad thing, by the w
34 Cloudyapple : The 777 Advanced is nowhere near ready yet. It's based on the 300's body with a composite wing so it's too large anyway. I'm not sure if a version of
35 N757KW : Everything that comes out about Lion makes me shake my head. I have flown on them enough times to wonder what they will ever do with 200 B737-900ERs.
36 LeftWing : ..... bangon !... I have known the team for many years...nothing changes...
37 Mandala499 : They've recently done so... except for a few airframes left, they've moved it all to the "disposal" corner of CGK. Because the remote apron between C
38 N757KW : Wow, that is good. When I was there in September/October they still had various aircraft at that remote apron. I got a few pictures during the taxi o
39 PolymerPlane : Wrong. 777-200ER is a very capable aircraft. It can fly CGK-AMS, CGK-LHR at 300pax easy. It could even carry extra cargo for that range. SQ used to d
40 Afterburner : Mandala499 once informed me, with a detailed calculation, that even the 773ER, which has slightly longer range than the 772ER, can't fly CGK-AMS non-
41 MillwallSean : I dont know how this airline manages to survive. There is no way that international ops is something they are geared up for. On international routes l
42 Post contains links and images Mandala499 : U mean this one: 6300NM route and And with the prevailing winds, gives guesstimated 23T payload penalty... it can carry 70T payload.. that leaves 47t
43 A342 : The chart you have seems to be outdated. Nowadays, the 773ER has a MTOW of up to 350t.
44 Stitch : Yes, it is outdated. Boeing has a new Payload-Range chart updated in April 2009 which shows range at MZFW at about 5700nm.
45 Alangirvan : basically, if Lion wants to fly tourists in to bali, the A330-300 would have the range to bring people in from Korea, from South East Australia and fr
46 Post contains links A342 : If they use SHJ or another airport in the Middle East, the A333 will also have enough range: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=c...STYLE=best&RANGE-C
47 NA : No one cant deny that its true what I wrote as its been officially reported several times that CX, CZ and soon Emirates want to get rid of their 772A
48 Mandala499 : A342 & Stich... Cheers guys, I gotta update my stuff... haven't touched the 77W for a "long time"... Oh that would be a nightmare... anything other th
49 PolymerPlane : Depends on what you call penalty. In general on passanger airplane, you call a penalty if you have to leave pax/bags behind, not because you can't fi
50 Mandala499 : That's the whole point of my argument... even with the old payload charts... The 773ER can still carry a good 47 tons worth of payload... be it self
51 PlaneHunter : Possibly - but they are still active. Many other widebody aircraft have been transferred to the desert. CX for example has stored A343s and 744s. PH
52 Stitch : RG found enough interest in spare parts to scrap one of their 77Es, which I imagine shares a good number of it's parts with a 772 to possibly have mad
53 PM : As I'm sure you know, that was rather an exceptional case where the plane in question had been very poorly maintained thus making parting out the onl
54 Stitch : But still, it was an option. So it arguably should be an option for CX, CZ and EK if they really want them out of their fleet, but don't want to just
55 SunriseValley : Mandala499 .. you are absolutely correct. Fine tuning your numbers a bit ...Not always will you get the max payload shown on the chart because the fr
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Gulf Air To Buy Or Lease 12 Airbus Planes By 2010 posted Tue Apr 17 2007 16:03:53 by TACAA320
Airtran Or Champon Air To Buy Sun Country posted Wed Nov 28 2001 18:22:21 by B777UA
Lion Air To Open Australian And Thai Operations posted Wed Jan 9 2008 16:55:03 by Aussie_
Arik Air To Order B748 Or A380 posted Sun Oct 14 2007 23:37:36 by Flying-Tiger
Singapore Air To Buy China Eastern Stake On Sept. posted Tue Aug 28 2007 04:09:34 by Asiaflyer
Want To Buy AM Or MX? You Can Do It Now! posted Wed Jul 6 2005 23:02:47 by SFOMEX
China's Shanghai Air To Buy 787s posted Tue Mar 22 2005 15:08:38 by YUL332LX
Libya's Buraq Air To Buy 737-800's posted Fri Feb 4 2005 15:46:22 by DL021
Lion Air To Lease Halim Perdanakusuma posted Mon Nov 8 2004 01:30:06 by Cwapilot
Lion Air To Take 734, MD90 posted Wed Sep 29 2004 16:13:16 by Flying-Tiger