BmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 8171 times:
Quoting Runway23 (Thread starter): All flights to be marketed as LX flights, although 3 will be operated by BD.
Interesting to note this paragraph of the news release:
The new services between Geneva and London Heathrow will be operated by two aircraft of the Airbus A320 family. In an initial phase, one of these will be provided by bmi, SWISS’s new sister airline within the Lufthansa Group. Later, however, SWISS will operate all these London Heathrow services with its own equipment. A further SWISS Airbus A320 will be stationed in Geneva for this purpose.
Mozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2008 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 7922 times:
How interesting!
Just a few days ago I asked what the impediments were for that route to re-open other than the slots. (I then asked to close that thread after some pedantic smart**ss didn't have an answer to the question but whaffled on about how airlines within the LH Group do the accounting for slot transfers).
Apparently slots were the only impediment.
I hope that route will be successful, I'll certainly be a frequent guest.
Runway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 39 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 7775 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 10): I'm really glad to see LHR-GVA up and running again. It is a shame that they don't put a flight out of LGW too.
Why would they? EZY are at a minimum of 6x daily on LGW-GVA. BA fly it 2x daily during the winter.
Quoting Babybus (Reply 10): If BD can't make money on the busiest route in the world what hope is there?
Just because it is busy doesn't mean it is profitable.
Some of the GVA slots are coming directly 1 for 1 from Dublin. The others are uncertain.
It is still quite possible that Dublin would survive and something else may be cut (ABZ?).
One has to note though that generally LX and *'s operations in GVA will grow significantly in the next years. LHR is the first step to it, and admittedly the most important one.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7034 times:
Quoting Runway23 (Reply 1): And quite interestingly, the remaining flights to LCY are almost complete duplications timewise of the LHR services, unless these are to be retimed.
That's irrelevant. The two markets are separate and it's not surprising the timings are almost the same as that's where the demand is. Lots of same-day returns due to heavy business traffic, especially to/from LCY.
SandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3382 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6959 times:
Finally! I was waiting for this to happen ever since LX gave some of their slots to BA for basically nothign in return. However I hope LX will launch a new mid-morning flight ex-ZRH aswell. There's a gaping hole between the first and second LHR flights of the day.
Runway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 39 Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6867 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18): That's irrelevant. The two markets are separate and it's not surprising the timings are almost the same as that's where the demand is. Lots of same-day returns due to heavy business traffic, especially to/from LCY.
They aren't independant, if they were then LX would not reduce their frequencies to LCY.
I think the similar timings are more a factor of:
-trying to bank departures from Geneva
-Aircraft utilization
-A late decision to launch the flight.
In fact one can wonder how smart it is to start a flight with 6 daily frequencies with the flight being put on sale only a month and a half before the first flight. I think this timing has more to do with LH taking over and potentially seeing that existing BD markets have poor forward bookings and GVA has been quite resistant to the crisis.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6805 times:
Quoting Runway23 (Reply 21): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
That's irrelevant. The two markets are separate and it's not surprising the timings are almost the same as that's where the demand is. Lots of same-day returns due to heavy business traffic, especially to/from LCY.
They aren't independant, if they were then LX would not reduce their frequencies to LCY.
I think the cut in capacity to LCY mainly reflects a drop in demand due to the financial crisis which has had a big effect on the London financial industry, a major market to/from GVA. The fact that AF (CityJet) has pulled out of the GVA-LCY market after only a year or so of service, where I think they had 3 Avro RJs a day until fairly recently, is another indication of that. AF now codeshares on 2 daily Baboo (F7) Dash 8-400s GVA-LCY which recently started.
It's easier to fill seats to/from LHR at off-peak times as there are more opportunities to pick up some connecting traffic while GVA-LCY is almost totally O&D.
Mozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2008 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6748 times:
Quoting Runway23 (Reply 12): One has to note though that generally LX and *'s operations in GVA will grow significantly in the next years. LHR is the first step to it, and admittedly the most important one.
Interesting. What makes you say that? Indeed, United and Air Canada did join the GVA crowd, and SA)">CO - who have been around since some time - now strengthens the Star ranks.
But other than that? What kind of further Star Alliance expansion could we be expecting?
All but a few of the European Star partners are already active in GVA and serve their respective hubs: SK, LO, SN, OS, LH, TP, TK. Indeed, JK is missing, and so are A3, JP, OU and KF. So the kind of expansion is rather limited in terms of new Star airlines and would need to be more flights, increase in capacity or new destinations by existing airlines (whatever, say SK also opens OSL).
I don't see any of the intercontinental Star partners coming there (SQ, US, JJ, SA, NH, CA, FM, NZ - just no fit; TG has been here in the past as a tag-on to the ZRH flight but moved out some time ago).
Maybe LX re-discovers GVA? There currently are only a few LX mainline destinations from GVA: Prague, Budapest, Bucarest, Moscow (why that love with Eastern Europe?), Barcelona, Athens. Add LCY as another ARJ destination. So who knows, maybe more is to come. But GVA has been left to Easyjet to a large extent, so LX really must be aggressive to win back market share.
I am old enough to remember how people felt in Geneva when LX pulled out (it was more my parents that were affected than me, but still...). Whilst we could see the logic of not needing flights to Brazzaville to stop in GVA, cutting the European network was harsh.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6707 times:
Quoting Mozart (Reply 23): TG has been here in the past as a tag-on to the ZRH flight but moved out some time ago
When TG started service to GVA it was a tag-on from ATH with a 777-300 (non-ER) with 5th freedom rights GVA-ATH. When that didn't work, they siwtched to a tag-on from ZRH using a 744 which was even less likely to make economic sense.
Quoting Mozart (Reply 23): I am old enough to remember how people felt in Geneva when LX pulled out
It wasn't LX that largely pulled out of GVA. It was Swissair in the mid-1990s.
25 Mozart: You are right of course. LX at the time was still Crossair. But it was obviously our good old SR that pulled so many GVA flights. LHR was one of them
26 UALWN: I believe you are right. BCN-MAD was the busiest in terms of number of flights between single airports until AVE started last year. Now it's probably
27 Runway23: TG never had 5th freedom from GVA-ATH. The greek government blocked 5th freedom from TG in an attempt to save OA who at the time flew the route. LX h
28 Viscount724: Thanks. I thought they did but you're probably right.
29 Aswissinmad: Actually it was LX -Swiss- that shut down the GVA-LHR route, in 2004.
30 Viscount724: Correct. In fact GVA-LHR was one of the few routes Swissair maintained, along with GVA-JFK, when they moved almost everything else to ZRH in the mid-
31 Runway23: Well it was quite clear that LX got rapped in the deal, that also included IIRC 3 daily slots from BSL. In all, you had the 4 GVA-LHR slots and 3 BSL
32 Humberside: Quietly announced in the press release about LHR-GVA is that GVA-OTP is being axed. Bet Baboo will be happy As regards the LHR slots, a pprune post m
33 Mozart: I never quite understood the logic for that route anyway... What LX could think about is to serve some MENA markets. Morocco, Cairo, Beirut, Gulf sta
34 Babybus: Then what on Earth have they been doing running a route at a loss? They are quick enough to drop routes overnight. Why should DUB be special if it's
35 Runway23: If you took the time to read my reply in full, I wouldn't be replying to both your points. Similarly, you are insinuating things I have absolutely no
36 Babybus: That is my interpretation of doing it better. You provide what the customer wants and, if your mix is right, you make a profit. So if I start an airl
37 COEI2007: An airline should start a route wherever it thinkgs it can make money VS wont start a route competing with BA is if it doesnt think it will make mone
38 AIR MALTA: LX should try and restart those routes to CMN, ALG, TUN and CAI where local carriers have a monopoly at the moment. It can also give DKR a try if nec
39 Slz396: I've indeed read a rumour about the idea of shifting the 6 daily BRU-LHR flights operated by the LH group of airlines to SN, similar to the construct
40 BestWestern: DUB LHR for BD was for a long time BD's second most profitable route, after BHD LHR. As DUB LHR is a high frequency business market with strong feed
41 Slz396: Now confirmed by BD themselves. SN is to take over the 6 daily flights on LHR-BRU as from January next year!
42 AIR MALTA: I only tried to guess what's gonna happen and it indeed happened. Why didn't BD operate flighst to Switzerland and Belgium. They have the fleet and t
43 Shamrock321: DUB-LHR survives, had no doubt it would, the only airline offering business class on one of the busiest routes in Europe, there was no doubt it would
44 EICVD: I wasn't worried about BD cutting LHR-DUB either, have flown the route quite a few times in the past year & LF was always high.
45 MasseyBrown: The LH Group's ability to mix and match brands, routes, slots, and equipment has huge potential. Given that LH itself lacks smaller capacity widebodie
46 Panamair: Well, LX won't really have smaller widebodies once the A332s are phased out in the next two years; the A333 will be the 'smallest' - same as LH. I be
47 Kiwiandrew: LX are in the process of removing the A332 from their fleet and replacing them with A333 , once that happens the smallest LX widebody will be the sam
48 Kiwiandrew: My understanding is that there are two levels of ATI - the 'deeper' one which is the JV , referred to as Atlantic Plus Plus involves AC UA CO LH only
49 MasseyBrown: Neither that link nor the actual DOT order actually provides the level of detail I was looking for. So, for a concrete query, could LH use an OS 763
50 Viscount724: Personally I think it is a good job. Europe has far too many airlines and anything that results in greater consolidation is a good thing for the long
51 UALWN: I guess that, because of the EU-US open skies agreement, OS can fly between FRA-CLE. So it would be legal. Whether the flight would enter the revenue
52 JoFMO: I see it more as a symbol, that these markets are predominently Foreign Country to UK markets than UK to Foreign Country markets. Therefore it is mor
53 Runway23: I can see the reasoning for GVA-LHR where bmi is an unknown brand in GVA and LX has a number of corporate contracts, a well known brand and product t
54 Humberside: Arguably LHR-BRU is more important to SN's BRU hub than it is to bmi's remaining LHR operation
55 MasseyBrown: Thanks, I'm really interested in 1) whether a Lufthansa subsidiary qualifies as part of the joint venture and 2) whether LH could wet charter a subsi
56 Shamrock321: Humberside you are right, BRU-LHR is more important to SN than it is to BD. What are the realistic chances as mentioned above of LHR-BSL or other rout
57 Poh2: are you sure about this? I've always wondered about this shady deal that Swiss did with BA back in the day. It was always clear to me that they gave
58 LYChemsa: Because BABOO now operate GVA to LCY, I assume LX are reducing service.
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