Ssublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 504 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15508 times:
Looks like Airbus is still struggling with A380 delays. This particular delay was not requested by the carrier. They are still expecting to deliver 20 A380's next year. Atleast until they announce otherwise. Sad it will be delayed.
A380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1036 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15429 times:
Just when I thought they were beginning to have a grip on things... How long before they reach the 43/year production target?
If I remember, well, the building in Toulouse is sized for twice this production rate. Is that right? Hard to imagine a world where 80+ A380/year would be required.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9708 posts, RR: 10 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15267 times:
Just to remind everybody: Boeing delivered about 100 747s in its first production year. In a time when there was almost no computer help, no realtime info system. All done by "hand" so to say. Makes me admire Sutter and his guys back then. Not so much the overpaid "geniusses"who are running the business now.
Rbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 576 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15055 times:
I know the 787's delays have taken the front page (as well they should given that fiasco), but I'm surprised Airbus is still having problems with the assembly of the A380. You would have thought they would have everything pretty much worked out by now.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10350 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15054 times:
Several months is a lot.
Reminding that LH were the ones to do the very first passenger (proving) flight with a 380 borrowed from Airbus flying to JFK and back with LH pilots in command of the flight. I had a friend who worked for LH at the time and was among the happy few chosen to go on the fligths.
This delay is not good news.
I guess Air France were very lucky not to have their one 380 delivery delayed by Airbus.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14934 times:
It would be helpful to know why it is late, but as I believe it is at XFW, it must be related to the cabin fittings?
Are most of the delivery delays as of late at XFW or are planes leaving TLS behind schedule?
IliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14768 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 2): Just to remind everybody: Boeing delivered about 100 747s in its first production year. In a time when there was almost no computer help, no realtime info system. All done by "hand" so to say. Makes me admire Sutter and his guys back then. Not so much the overpaid "geniusses"who are running the business now.
Exactly and makes you think back in the day if they had the power like they do now, computers, technology, etc where we would be in the aviation.
EbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14589 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 2):
Just to remind everybody: Boeing delivered about 100 747s in its first production year. In a time when there was almost no computer help, no realtime info system. All done by "hand" so to say. Makes me admire Sutter and his guys back then. Not so much the overpaid "geniusses"who are running the business now.
that was then and this is now.
Anyway why bring this up? With only 100 or so orders why would Airbus churn them all out in a year?
Those pesky EK showers are causing a headache at XFW. What impact will this have on other customers like Korean?
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14262 times:
Quoting A380900 (Reply 1): Just when I thought they were beginning to have a grip on things... How long before they reach the 43/year production target?
Most likely never. Airbus building (and delivering) 43 A380's in a year is just a ludicrous as Boeing assembling a 787 in three days.
A380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1036 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14048 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 2): Just to remind everybody: Boeing delivered about 100 747s in its first production year. In a time when there was almost no computer help, no realtime info system. All done by "hand" so to say. Makes me admire Sutter and his guys back then. Not so much the overpaid "geniusses"who are running the business now.
It makes one wonder. The entire process seems so much heavier. Yet it is hard to see what exactly is making the A380 so differently (it's still moving people around). As Renault (French carmaker) did with a new car that was deprived of all the niceties being a drag on production that were added on all cars since 30 years called the Logan, one wonders whether there would be room for just sturdy airplanes costing half as much where people would read books. Could they build these in China maybe?
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9258 posts, RR: 96 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14009 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 11): Why not. These two program are comparable.
Not as much as we would like to think, I would suggest.
The regulatory environment, general technological environment, and system complexity (particularly in terms of software) of a modern airliner, are an order of magnitude more difficult than they were when the 747 was first built.
The first nuclar submarines were built in half the time that it takes today, and in terms of what you see, and the "bits" they have in them, they are no different.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): Are most of the delivery delays as of late at XFW or are planes leaving TLS behind schedule?
Convoy frequency accelerating
First-Flight frequency acceleratinig even more quickly (i.e. assembly time is dropping)
Delivery not accelerating at all.
i.e. the bottleneck is unquestionably XFW
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1881 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13946 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 11): Why not. These two program are comparable.
No they are not, or not completely. The amount of customer customization on the A380, or any airliner nowadays is unheard of. That wasn't possible back in the '70's. A lot of the latest delays has been thanks to this.
Quoting Kappel (Reply 13): It appears there is some confusion. Flight Global reports a delay of just a few weeks, not months:
DLPhoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12316 times:
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 15): The regulatory environment, general technological environment, and system complexity (particularly in terms of software) of a modern airliner, are an order of magnitude more difficult than they were when the 747 was first built.
The first nuclar submarines were built in half the time that it takes today, and in terms of what you see, and the "bits" they have in them, they are no different.
You would expect a well run organization to factor in the added complexity into a longer schedule and deliver according to it. The repeating delays that marred both the 787 and A380 programs are indicative of a systematic issue.
IMHO the problem stems from the difference between the skills required to get to the top, and the skills required to manage the organization once you got there.
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11584 times:
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 16): No they are not, or not completely. The amount of customer customization on the A380, or any airliner nowadays is unheard of. That wasn't possible back in the '70's. A lot of the latest delays has been thanks to this.
Since you were not even born until the late 70's at the earliest I will try and enlighten you of the efforts taken by the OEM's to sell airframes in the 1970's. These are a few of the many ways airframes were customized in the 70's in addition to specific customer interior requirements.
A few examples: LTU and Pan Am L-1011-500's. The aft cargo door was deleted at their request.
British Airway's and Court Line's L-1011-1 and -200's a eighth large Type A door was installed in lieu the three Type A and one Type 1 doors all other L-1011 received.
Many different passenger door configurations on the 767-300's, Some have two Type A doors and two over wing exits, some have three Type A doors and one over wing exits and some have three Type A doors one Type 1 door and no over wing exits.
You don't see Airbus allowing the customer choose what type doors to install and where to install them. That would be real customization.
Rbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 576 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11428 times:
Quoting A380900 (Reply 12): one wonders whether there would be room for just sturdy airplanes costing half as much where people would read books. Could they build these in China maybe?
Agreed, the desire to pack more features into a product has raised the cost considerably. But I think the customers are requesting these features.
I believe they eventually can and will build a basic, no frills airliner in China, and sooner rather than later. Several designs are at various stages of development. I believe it will mimic the Russian commercial aerospace industry. Russian planes, while sometimes not pretty to look at and not the most efficient, are generally rugged, well built utilitarian machines. No bells and whistles, and ongoing maintenance may be in question, but the designs seem sound.
N14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2341 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11290 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): Are most of the delivery delays as of late at XFW or are planes leaving TLS behind schedule?
In terms of MSN 038 there are a couple of reasons - like always:
when MSN 038 arrived in XFW there was no outfitting hangar available due to the fact that other A 380s had consumed much more time in the outfiitting hangars.
I used a journey through Northern Germany on October 14th to make a short stop in XFW and I was suprised to see MSN 028 standing outside together with some A320 "white tails".
XFW on October 14th 2009 (MSN 038 for LH)
Finally, MSN 038 found an empty outfitting hangar. There was the word that some reworking was necessary before they were able to start with cabin outfitting.
I also heard that the seats selected by Lufthansa didn't stand the g-force test and their delivery to Finkenwerder has been postponed.
But I also heard that LH has not yet confirmed the final layout completly which makes it hard for the Airbus employees to proceed with the procurement. This is something that is often mentioned in German aviation forums: it seems that Airbus gave their clients too much freedom to make changes at the end of the production time and obviously they are using this chance (e.g. Emirates, see MSN 007).
This is just what became "public". There might be other issues which are unkown.
In terms of MSN 041, LH's second A 380, there seems to be a small delay in Toulouse, as MSN 041 has already been "overtaken" by another A 380 (MSN 030 for EK), which had entered the FAL after MSN 041.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11054 times:
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 16): The amount of customer customization on the A380, or any airliner nowadays is unheard of. That wasn't possible back in the '70's. A lot of the latest delays has been thanks to this.
In terms of wiring and power for IFE and seating, I can buy that. But when you look at the different lounges many widebodies employed and different seating layouts, I'm not so sure...
Those pesky EK showers are causing a headache at XFW. What impact will this have on other customers like Korean?
What does this have to do with Lufty's A380 already at XFW?
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 16):
No they are not, or not completely. The amount of customer customization on the A380, or any airliner nowadays is unheard of. That wasn't possible back in the '70's. .
However I agree with you on the fact customization is very important especially with the A380, the 747 actually was one big example of customer customization. The SUD was actually customer customization in it's purest form. The large first classes and the styles of airlines like Pan Am and TWA made customization a widely spread phenomenon even back then.
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
25 Manfredj: Didn't some of the original 747 order's call for lounges, piano bars, etc etc? The technology of the time is relative. The "redundant" systems as wel
26 474218: As did the DC-10 and the L-1011. Some TriStars even had a lower lobe lounge. There is nothing new being installed on the A380 just, more.
27 Tootallsd: I love technology but this thread seems to raise an interesting question. Are we running technology or is it getting in our way. If the A380 (or 787,
28 Aircellist: That is not fair. Early 747s, DC-10s and L1011 had three, four, let's say five big screens, with associated projectors. Audio channels were playing t
29 EbbUK: I don't believe you. I wonder if they are hogging the hangar time with the fiddly taps and water tanks? Trust you to take the conversation right off
30 Par13del: Probably exactly whats taking place now, the slide rule folks would be lazy as the computers now do all the work Resources could be used for the A350
31 474218: Think you for your insightful post. I have argued with many people on a.net over the years on profit margin. They read where Airbus claims a profit m
32 Tootallsd: They may well make 25% per unit but there is so much else left to pay for. For example, a supermarket might make 25% on a can of product. But then yo
33 VV701: The reverse is certainly true for Boeing produced aircraft. Back in the 70s Boeing offered the 741 either with passenger seating or a lounge / bar on
34 Viscount724: Your Airbus comment isn't quite correct. Airbus does offer some door/emergency exit options. Examples below. Some A330-200s have a Type A emergency e
35 474218: [ I stand corrected, but we were discussing the A380 .
36 Astuteman: Can I agree with you 100 times over? Computers, and their programmes, have stopped us from thinking and communicating in a way that's needed to execu
37 Kappel: Great minds think alike Why not if I may ask?
38 Burkhard: Since the costs are majority in Euro, and the sales in $, this quantitiy only can be calculated assuming a $ exchange rate, which we do not know, so
39 LifelinerOne: I'm indeed talking about all the wiring and powering for IFE, seating, showers etc. I know about lounges and piano bars etc. being done in other jets
40 BrouAviation: Don't want to transit in CDG, and I am a Miles&More member. And above all, I'm a Lufty-fan.
41 Rheinwaldner: That is very nice from you but luckily each human is not restricted to know only those things witnessed personally. Somebody could be born past 2000
42 Aesma: Did you talk about the evolution of safety and efficiency ? Safety means you cannot change a door just like that, you have to prove it will still be s
44 474218: I take it you have never worked on or around an aircraft production line? If you had you would not think it is more difficult to move some seats and
45 FrmrCAPCADET: Boeing mentioned years ago that there was too much customizing and that it was leading to higher prices. I am sure that A and B would like to reduce i
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