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Widgetheads.net Down - Again  
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8842 times:

This time the lawyers are after it all. To make it short - they claim that Widgetheads.net has proprietary information to Delta Air Lines. I'm waiting to hear back from the lawyers to see what can be worked out.

But get this part...in the original letter sent to me, they demand that I shut down the site and turn over the domain name to them.

I'll keep everyone posted as to what's going on. In the meantime, show your support (again) for the site and post your comments. Anyone with legal background as well, please feel free to comment on the situation.

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8783 times:

The site you have made is great. Certainly a great tool for frequent delta flyers and fans. You would think delta would realize the free marketing benefit. None the less, if they do have a big problem with your site, they still look silly taking this long to respond. Makes them look clumsy.


S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlineNYCAdvantage From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8780 times:

I think you have done a great job, So good that you have given them a great idea on how to link it to them self and make money, I think you have something to bargain and make money, wish you the best and keep the good work, NYCAdvantage.

[Edited 2009-11-23 19:05:05]

User currently offline9V-SPJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 752 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

You really had an amazing website! How did you get all the info about the mods and such? Was it through the TOC? If you are not at liberty to say, that's fine  Smile

9V-SPJ


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

I don't see how the information is proprietary. The ship numbers and registrations are painted on the side of the planes after all. Figuring out which planes are getting or have mods is not exactly rocket science either. Sounds like somebody wants a few more billable hours.

Quoting Pilotboi (Thread starter):
turn over the domain name to them.

Why? It's yours. Did they ask for your car too?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8751 times:

Hey Pilotboi,

I think the best course of action may be to personally (i.e., not on the Internet) solicit the counsel of an attorney and remain (personally) as tight-lipped about this as you can. It's standard CYA procedure for well-run corporations to refrain from public comment on pending litigation. I think you've got a fight, if it's a route you want to take.

Good luck! FWIW I was amazed by the detail of your site and the effort you put into it.

[Edited 2009-11-23 19:11:32]


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

I definitely wouldn't turn over the domain name to them.

[Edited 2009-11-23 19:52:36]

User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8579 times:

Pilotboi,

I think you should take the advice of JBirdAV8r and stop posting about it, retain council, and fight them. I was very disappointed when it finally dawned on me that the Delta Air Lines of today is a far cry from the Delta that Collett E. Woolman built so long ago. Today's Delta is run by Wall Street yes men and lawyers who don't really care about the history or legacy of what is Delta Air Lines. Oh, they say they do to keep employee moral high and make everyone feel good, but in the end it's only about the money. Period. Your website as cool as it is to enthusiasts such as you, me, and everyone on this sight, threatens their tight grip on the reigns of the company. That being said, I think you have an argument that it your sight using information and techniques that are proprietary to you.

Best of luck and I hope that if you choose to fight them, that you reign victorious.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8478 times:

First, I would concur with the others that the site widgetheads site was truly remarkable in the amount of information that it provided. However, objectively speaking, one can see why Delta might have the position that some of data accessible via the widgetheads site would not normally expected to be in the public domain.

Pilotboi said in the earlier thread that was not deriving any revenue from the widgetheads site, he was just doing it as a hobby and as an enthusiast. Delta, on the other hand have deep pockets and well-paid lawyers. Instead of providing guidance on what is public domain and what is not, it is easier for Delta to ask that the whole site be shut down. Delta's lawyers are betting on the fact that Pilotboi does not have the financial backing to fight them. Which is why Delta's lawyers have made what sounds like a completely unreasonable demand that Pilotboi turn over the "widgetheads.net" domain to Delta. The strategy on their side is to ask for as much as they can and use bullying tactics in the hope that the little guy caves in. Regrettably, the outcome is probably not going to be one that enthusiasts would prefer.

Wishing you all the best, Pilotboi, and really, thank you for your labor of love that was that site.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineTristarcrazy From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8455 times:

yea man, get a lawyer and fight or at least talk to one. most will at least give you free consultation. call you local bar assoc and they will give you direction. you may also consider talking to the media (after legal advice), maybe some bad publicity will make them come around. whata bunch of aholes. and i wouldn't give up the domain unless they paid me well for it. what's next, airliners.net??

good luck and let us know if you need some donations...i will be happy to help



717,722,732,733,737.738,739,742,744.752,763,764,772,L10,L15,DC3,DC6,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,MD90,CV880,A310,A319,A320.A33
User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8410 times:



Quoting WestWing (Reply 8):
However, objectively speaking, one can see why Delta might have the position that some of data accessible via the widgetheads site would not normally expected to be in the public domain.

I think the only think on Widgetheads that you can not find somewhere online is the list of what was in maintenance, or the paint hanger or getting a mod of some kid. All the other info is either from Delta themselves or from something you can clearly see, such as paint.

I did not realize you could not take information that a public company makes public and organize it in one place.

This doesn’t cost Delta anything, gives out great information on their fleet; you would think they would love it.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

Don't give in to their crap without a nice paycheck!

I do understand if you just can't and don't want to fight them on it but if this is the case you should make them pay for the name at least. Another angle that might work well for both sides is some kind of free travel agreement. You could work something out where you sell them the site for FF miles or just some travel vouchers. This would cost Delta next to nothing and could be of great benefit to you. Maybe a few round trip tickets to SYD in First could make you feel a little better about not running the site anymore!

I would definitely think about what you want to get out of it and what you are willing to put into it and go from there. I think the travel could be a very very good deal for both of you and if I was in your position I might just try it!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8372 times:

This is classic Richard Andersen, Pilotboi get a lawyer, RA only knows how to work with people in front of a judge and hasn't learned that he gets a lot more friends if he didn't take everything to the court system.

Good luck, I loved the site and hope to see it up soon.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8366 times:



Quoting C767P (Reply 10):
I did not realize you could not take information that a public company makes public and organize it in one place

I did not see Delta (or anyone else) suggest you can't take public information and organize it in one place.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8262 times:

i understood the first thread on this with the widget. Companies must protect trademarks in order for them to be kept. If they don't actively go after people using their trademarks(for good or bad) they risk losing all rights to it. So, for that, delta did what they had to do, no matter if it was a total fan site.

For this, while i dont know exactly how you get your information, Delta could be thinking you are getting inside information.

As was said, you really should consult a lawyer.


User currently offlineLRARjets From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

Good luck. Great site.  Sad

User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3299 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7775 times:



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 14):
i understood the first thread on this with the widget. Companies must protect trademarks in order for them to be kept. If they don't actively go after people using their trademarks(for good or bad) they risk losing all rights to it. So, for that, delta did what they had to do, no matter if it was a total fan site.

For this, while i dont know exactly how you get your information, Delta could be thinking you are getting inside information.

As was said, you really should consult a lawyer.

Agreed. I LOVE the site. But I always wondered if you had Delta's permission. Certainly the use of DL branding and imagery is completely out of bounds for the reasons Scrubbs mentions above. People not understanding this have no comprehension of trademark law. If Delta DIDN'T stop that, they would effectively give up control of their trademarks and anyone could use them. My company just sent the entire workforce through a serious of webinars talking about just this issue.

The content of the data is another story. I guess the question becomes, where are you getting the data? If it was all publicly available, then you are completely in-bounds, I would think. However, I know enough about DL to suspect that much of your info was obtained from insiders. I also suspect that much of it, particularly related to mtc and mods, was confidential. If that was the case, then again, Delta is within their rights to want it not posted publicly.

Unfortunately, this may be a case where the business needs of the company collide with the interests of enthusiasts. You did a fantastic job with the site. I checked it nearly every day. My suggestion is that, rather than fight them (which you will lose), you try to strike a deal that allows you to continue to post non-confidential information. Perhaps you can turn it into a positive by working with them to create an enthusiast site that is sanctioned by Delta. It's a long-shot, but I think working with them is going to be more productive than provoking them. The talk on here about fighting them is insane. You'll go broke.


User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7659 times:



Quoting Micstatic (Reply 1):
if they do have a big problem with your site, they still look silly taking this long to respond. Makes them look clumsy.

It does make them look clumsy.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
I definitely wouldn't turn over the domain name to them.

I wouldn't turn over the domain name to them. If you did, we'd probaly never see it again.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
you try to strike a deal that allows you to continue to post non-confidential information. Perhaps you can turn it into a positive by working with them to create an enthusiast site that is sanctioned by Delta.

It may have to come down to something like this. I can see why DL might not want some of the maintence detials to get out. But as far as the paint updates, I don't see what that would hurt especially since DL wants to get to a single brand as soon as they can.
I love the site and I hope it stays up. I hope DL managment would realize that this site doesn't hurt them in the least. If anything it helps promote them. If DL does succeed in shutting down the site I'll think less of them.



Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7633 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Folks Delta needs to protect it's brands... It's that simple...

The OP needs to find out what Deltas exact concerns are and address them. If Delta still continues to gripe we need to start a letter writing campaign addressed to the CEO....



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7570 times:

Tell them to piss up a rope, and then add that it's "the right thing to do."

Oh, and if they want your domain name? Money talks.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDLPhoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Delta needs to protect its brands. Asking PilotBoi to sign a legal document that protects their trademarks It would have been a reasonable move.

But asking him to suspend what amounts to free advertising is plain dumb   . My advise to Pilotboi would be to retaliate by closing the web site and eliminate the free service you have been providing them so far. Let them keep throwing money at less effective marketing channels. Find yourself a different airline that is smart enough to benefit from their fans' efforts.

Is there nobody at Delta marketing who is capable of thinking outside the box?   

Happy Travels
DLP

[Edited 2009-11-25 11:01:41]

[Edited 2009-11-25 11:02:31]

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9509 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7547 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
The content of the data is another story. I guess the question becomes, where are you getting the data? If it was all publicly available, then you are completely in-bounds, I would think. However, I know enough about DL to suspect that much of your info was obtained from insiders. I also suspect that much of it, particularly related to mtc and mods, was confidential. If that was the case, then again, Delta is within their rights to want it not posted publicly.

99% or more can be found via the net. The mod work would be the only thing in question but still, one can take a pretty good guess(number of days/hours on the A/C) as to when the next PSV/HMV is due. Just good old Delta being Delta.

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 19):
Tell them to piss up a rope,

I'm happy to know im not the only person who says this.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 18):
Folks Delta needs to protect it's brands... It's that simple...

He took all the logos and such down.



yep.
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3299 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7523 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):

99% or more can be found via the net. The mod work would be the only thing in question but still, one can take a pretty good guess(number of days/hours on the A/C) as to when the next PSV/HMV is due. Just good old Delta being Delta.

If its confidential, its confidential. There are good reasons that airlines don't publish this information themselves. I suggest that people step back from the edge and realize that DL may not necessarily mean any harm to Pilotboi, but it does have an obligation to protect its own interests.

The tone of this discussion is frankly childish.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2349 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7524 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
Agreed. I LOVE the site. But I always wondered if you had Delta's permission. Certainly the use of DL branding and imagery is completely out of bounds for the reasons Scrubbs mentions above. People not understanding this have no comprehension of trademark law. If Delta DIDN'T stop that, they would effectively give up control of their trademarks and anyone could use them. My company just sent the entire workforce through a serious of webinars talking about just this issue.

This is very true, and likewise, the trademarks of all the Delta Connection carriers were also infinged upon just by their logos being used in the fleet listings.

I have no idea how Fair Use laws would apply under these circumstances, ether.

I would think if a deal can be worked out to not use trademarked material to display publicly available information, it's all good. I do agree some of the fleet information is likely inside information not meant to be publicly available and should probably be left out. If limited to repaints, it should be fine.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9509 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7520 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 22):
If its confidential, its confidential.

Kinda my point. It isn't really confidential.



yep.
25 DeltaL1011man : Forgot to say, Get someone to bring it up on one of the employee chats. The uppers may not even know about. IMHO id get someone to email Ed B. He seem
26 Jetlanta : If it is marked confidential and available only through internal sources, it is confidential. That some employees don't respect that is an issue betw
27 DLPhoenix : If DL would have wanted to use a blogger as a marketing channel they would have probably paid her/him. They would have also signed a contract that fo
28 Jetlanta : Glad you got all the facts before you made any assumptions about the intentions of Delta staff. I mean, there is no chance at all that they've given
29 DLPhoenix : I am also a proud member of the association of armchair CEOs. I will be the first to admit that this is a very convenient position. I am also aware o
30 NWAESC : This is certainly true, which is why a cease and desist order while "unfair" (at least to most of us), would be understandable. I may be overly optim
31 Jetlanta : Agreed. But, no company is going to want to put the "marketing benefits" in the hands of someone they have no control over. If they feel it is truly
32 DLPhoenix : This is a great example of the difference between a lawyer's "What should we do to avoid disaster" aproach and an enterpeneur's "What should we chang
33 C767P : If you visited the site enough, you would see at times that Pilotboi would post details that he already had when he was able to. The leaks show up on
34 Pilotboi : First off, I would like to thank everyone for their support in the website! While I would really like to reply to almost every post here so far, there
35 BMI727 : How about Silver Medallion for life?
36 USPIT10L : Keep up the fight, Pilotboi. You've created a heck of a tool for information on the DL/NW merger alone, and for that I salute you. I have the officia
37 Pfletch1228 : Why dont you move the website offshore? Make it really cost Delta money to get it shut down...
38 Aviationbuff08 : If Delta is be this harsh with our friend Justin about his site. I do wonder what they are doing to the employees that were providing the information
39 NWAESC : It's worth whatever you deem it to be worth.
40 Woof : I wish it worked that way. It's worth what someone is prepared to pay. My business is internet. If you want to move your domain outside of the US the
41 Brilondon : I wish I could help with this legal stuff but I am afraid that the aforementioned airline probably has their butts covered on this one, although I don
42 Nwaesc : This is true, just another way of looking at it. To clarify, my intent was to say Pilotboi holds the cards. If their offer (should one come) is less
43 Dispatchguy : Is there any carrier like that, especially in the US? Think outside the box - No. When I worked at DL OCC, I was told there is the right way, the wro
44 FlyDreamliner : I understand full well the desire to protect copyrights, but still. This kind of action on Delta's part turns me, as a consumer, off in a fairly meani
45 DLPMMM : I sent Delta an e-mail of protest over their actions WRT widgetheads.net. Others could do the same if they feel the inclination.
46 Nwaesc : I would be curious what type-if any-of response you receive...
47 Alitalia744 : While I enjoyed the site very much, and am a very big "Widgethead" myself, I do see both sides of the story. Unfortunately, whether it was done with i
48 Cbphoto : I too enjoyed widgetheads! Everyone on here, instead of writing how you really loved the site, and how much it meant to you, you should all write to
49 Tristarcrazy : There are other publications, Aviation Weekly, Airliners magazine, JP Airline Fleets, etc. as well as this website that contain almost all the info th
50 Pilotboi : A quick update: Haven't heard from the lawyers in a few days. If I don't get anything back by tonight I'll send another inquiry. But since Widgetheads
51 DeltaL1011man : anyway we can get a paint list( i.e X number of 752s have new paint)
52 71Zulu : Really liked the site and hope you can get it back online. I did notice a 333 leaving VCV Saturday and another 333 heading in. 3320 / N820NW / NWA9860
53 USPIT10L : That one hurts. I remember draining the potable water on that bird in PIT in February 2007 with a good friend of mine who was an ex-EA mechanic. When
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : Interesting, but I guess not really surprising if you think about it. These were some of the newer 742's into NW's fleet in 1979-ish. For over 20 yea
55 Post contains links Cbphoto : http://www.mspspotters.net/merger/ This might help, since widget heads is currently down!
56 Aviationbuff08 : I have noticed that is has been a few weeks, widgetheads.net is still down and we haven't heard anything from the adminastrator. I hope he is doing we
57 Pilotboi : I'm still here. Unfortunately, no word from the laywers. I have a feeling since the site is now down they don't care to talk to my anymore. They've ac
58 LAXtoATL : If they are ignoring you... Send them a certified letter and advise them that if they fail to respond to you in writing within 14 days then you will a
59 M404 : Do we know exactely what it was they are objecting to? Was it the logo or the content? Have they been specific about anything? Does anyone else know o
60 LAXtoATL : These are some the questions he needs to pose as well others in his letter. He needs them to make it perfectly clear what there issues are, because t
61 Gvroyphx : Pilotboi - I just LOVED the site, but I can see where Delta had a problem. I mean I just LOVE Delta too, (i'm Diamond with them) but you really need t
62 Wjcandee : Notify the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Let them write a sympathetic piece about how a Delta loyalist is being tortured by its asinine intellectual p
63 DeltaL1011man : I agree......write to the AJC and tell them whats going on.
64 Brilondon : This a very dangerous course of action as they had issues with this site before and probably would shut it down again and possible file suite themsel
65 C767P : How do you do this when Delta’s lawyers will not respond? The certified letter would be sent to get a reply. I am sure if he were to put the site b
66 Post contains links Mayor : Well, according to Pilotboi, that's not the reason they wanted it shut down. According to the original post it is because the information on the site
67 LAXtoATL : It is not dangerous at all. If they have issues with him restarting the site, then they will be forced to respond to him. He said they are no longer
68 Mayor : But is NOT a ramp agent or employee of DL.
69 DeltaL1011man : What we have here is a case of BS. Big man is trying to step on the little man. IMO it is VERY VERY STUPID of Delta to shut down something that only
70 LAXtoATL : I was not the one who made the statement that he could be fired over this. I was arguing otherwise. If he is not an employee of DL at all, then obvio
71 Igneousrocks : The only good option is for Pilotboi to consult with an attorney (hopefully he already has) and cease making any further comments or posts about Delt
72 Jetlanta : Wow, the sense of proportion really is gone here, isn't it? Let's be real, other than a small handful of us, NOBODY CARES. None of us commenting here
73 Brilondon : It is dangerous if they have asked him to stop with his website and he continues. He said they are no longer talking to him which we can then infer t
74 DLPhoenix : I wholeheartedly support this advice. Pilotboi is dealing with boneheads that had nothing better to do than shut down a harmless fan site. Why risk l
75 Mayor : Not all of us, but some of us may have more ingrained loyalty than others.
76 LAXtoATL : First of all as a lawyer you should know that if he transfers ownership of this site to an LLC, DL cannot touch him financially! They would have no l
77 DeltaL1011man : Oh but you must not know the AJC very well. They love the chance to make Delta(and U of Georgia) look bad/stupid(but you may be right, No one may car
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