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FAA Releases NW 188 FL Transcripts  
User currently offlineDarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10285 times:

The FAA has released the transcripts fro NW Flight 188 which overflew MSP and was out of contact for 77 minutes. You can listen to the audio from inside the cockpit from this link.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...transcripts_FA0rIyPAenyfXyTHn6NwZI

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10205 times:



Quoting Darthluke12694 (Thread starter):
You can listen to the audio from inside the cockpit from this link.

Media mis-speak. This is not "raw" audio from inside the cockpit. This is the recorded conversations from the Minneapolis ARTCC. This is recorded radio transmissions between the ATC Sector, and all aircraft on that Sector frequency. NWA188 just happens to be one of them.

"Raw", from the cockpit, could only come from the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), and that will not be happening.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10166 times:

It still amazes me how this happened. How do they become so "distracted" for almost 90 minutes? Did the pilots involved lose their jobs?


RUSH
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1911 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10151 times:



Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 2):
Did the pilots involved lose their jobs?

The FAA revoked their licenses. So they're not flying anymore, that's for sure.


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10147 times:

I didn't think they would be.
Thanks.



RUSH
User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 934 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9861 times:



Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 2):
It still amazes me how this happened. How do they become so "distracted" for almost 90 minutes? Did the pilots involved lose their jobs?

Its easy, they were sleeping! What else did you think they were doing? Yes they lost their jobs.

James


User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9823 times:



Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 5):
Yes they lost their jobs.

Have they actually been fired? I know they lost their licenses but don't remember hearing from DL that they have officially been fired.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2788 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9742 times:



Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 6):
I know they lost their licenses but don't remember hearing from DL that they have officially been fired.

They immediately lose all job qualifications for that job if their license is revoked. Maybe they can start tossing bags.



No info
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9625 times:



Quoting Darthluke12694 (Thread starter):
The FAA has released the transcripts fro NW Flight 188 which overflew MSP and was out of contact for 77 minutes. You can listen to the audio from inside the cockpit from this link.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...6NwZI

- I appreciate the link to the NYPost story but the link they provided did not connect so I could not hear the ARTCC recording (maybe I will try YouTube). The article is (like said previously) typical media-speak.

Later,

David



Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
User currently offlineChrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2116 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9592 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 1):
"Raw", from the cockpit, could only come from the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), and that will not be happening.

It won't happen because there isn't a CVR recording. That particular plane had an older CVR with only 30 minutes of recording time. That 30 minutes only picks them up from about Eau Claire inbound to MSP. I also believe recording got started after they were parked at the gate and erased more CVR time. I remember reading that, but who knows if it's factual.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 5):
Its easy, they were sleeping! What else did you think they were doing? Yes they lost their jobs.

They haven't been fired yet to the best of my knowledge. Their license revocation has been appealed.

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 8):

- I appreciate the link to the NYPost story but the link they provided did not connect so I could not hear the ARTCC recording (maybe I will try YouTube). The article is (like said previously) typical media-speak.

Link from the FAA website: http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/2009-10-23/ Audio and transcripts are here.


User currently offlineEGCC777LR From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8526 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER



Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 5):
Its easy, they were sleeping!

Has there been anything to prove this, have the pilots admitted it?

Just wondering, certainly not trying to say that this info is incorrect by any means and I do agree after listening to some of the recordings it does sound feasible and the Pilot's lack of information on the 'Cockpit distraction' certainly points this way. I was just interested to know if there was any 'proof'?



Flown On B704,722,732/3/4/7/8/9,744,752,762/3/4,772,77W,A319,A320,A321,A330,A388,L1011,F-50,BAE146,CRJ100, Dash-8. Left
User currently offlineTPA36R From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8295 times:



Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 5):
Its easy, they were sleeping! What else did you think they were doing? Yes they lost their jobs.

So do tell, were you in the jumpseat? Co Pilot? Until then, dont be so certain as to what happen because you weren't there! Let the investigation do its work. This isn't a crash, so the whole monday morning qb stuff really won't get you far.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
It won't happen because there isn't a CVR recording

Wrong.

A CVR can still have that data on it and the chances of the NTSB being able to recover it are high. Just like any computer, when you delete something, it isn't truly gone. Now WE the public will never hear the CVR in audio because it is ILLEGAL to release it.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8266 times:



Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
It won't happen because there isn't a CVR recording. That particular plane had an older CVR with only 30 minutes of recording time

Even if there were a CVR recording, IIRC, federal law/regulation prohibits releasing the audio -- that's why all you'll ever see/hear are CVR transcripts and radio transmissions.



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8212 times:



Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
They haven't been fired yet to the best of my knowledge. Their license revocation has been appealed.

I suspect that this is how airlines keep the lost luggage department staffed  Wink



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineCOA735 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7377 times:



Quoting TPA36R (Reply 11):
So do tell, were you in the jumpseat? Co Pilot? Until then, dont be so certain as to what happen because you weren't there! Let the investigation do its work. This isn't a crash, so the whole monday morning qb stuff really won't get you far.

He obviously wasn't there, so obviously it was a opinion. There's no need to beat up on people for expressing their beliefs. I also think they fell asleep.


User currently offlineE38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Both Capt Timothy Cheney and First Officer Richard Cole had their pilot certificates revoked by the Federal Aviation Administration. This does not equate to either of them being fired by Northwest or Delta.
While they are obviously not flying for Northwest at this time, there has been no information released, nor evidence to suggest, they have been fired. It is possible they have been suspended without pay pending further investigation.

For those of you who keep insisting they were asleep, both Cheney and Cole testified before the FAA they were using their laptop computers (i.e., the reason they were distracted) and were involved in discussing the Delta pilot scheduling process--PBS--to the point they became unaware of their position and did not hear radio calls from ATC or notice ACARS messages from company dispatch.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6939 times:



Quoting E38 (Reply 15):
For those of you who keep insisting they were asleep, both Cheney and Cole testified before the FAA they were using their laptop computers (i.e., the reason they were distracted) and were involved in discussing the Delta pilot scheduling process--PBS--to the point they became unaware of their position and did not hear radio calls from ATC or notice ACARS messages from company dispatch.

Well, that IS a good try and, let's be honest, testifying to such by these two pilots means very little in my opinion. In your commendable attempt to 'give them credit' do you honestly expect me or most other people to believe that two pilots were SO distracted using their laptops to discuss their schedules that they completely lost spacial awareness and failed to hear radio calls? My, but their work 'schedules' are certainly some distraction? I'd sure hate to see their 'distraction threshold' when they don't need to be keeping their minds on the job!!


User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

They are fascinating to listen to. The pilot knows he's in the sh#t when they come back up with Sector 13. The controller couldn't have been nicer about it. The next guy, Sector 16, started pushing them, and each response sounded like "We're in deeeep trouble."
This is going to be hard to appeal.



What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6522 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 16):
do you honestly expect me or most other people to believe that two pilots were SO distracted using their laptops to discuss their schedules that they completely lost spacial awareness

Believe what you will. If they had been asleep, they would have a much better chance of getting out of this. They could blame it on fatigue, broken sleep cycles, or scheduling. all issues that have been in the media lately.

I can see a passionate discussion developing on the new screw scheduling program. It's a change in the way they are used to doing things, and perhaps, some emotional comments and philosophical energies took the front stage in their brains.

Either way, it would seem that Rule #1 was not adhered to.

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 17):
The next guy, Sector 16, started pushing them, and each response

I would bet money that a supervisor was standing behind that controller, directing him to ask those questions.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

This is a point of minutiae, but...

I was under the impression that Northwest's corporate name has never included the "Orient", e.g. even when they were marketing themselves as Northwest Orient Airlines through the late-80s they were still officially "Northwest Airlines, Inc."

Looking at several of the transcripts the flight is identified as "Northwest Orient Airlines, Inc. Flight 188"

Did I miss something? I can't imagine the FAA would have pulled Orient out of it's bureaucratic rear end -- is there some administrative reason why "Northwest Orient Airlines, Inc." would still exist and why that entity and not "Northwest Airlines, Inc." would be attached to the flight in question?

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5882 times:



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 19):
Did I miss something?

No, you haven't missed anything. It's reporting by a media that, 9 out of 10 times, can't identify a real aircraft from a carnival ride. The knot head probably had a model airplane as a kid that said Northwest Orient. That was enough research for the reporter.

Most of them never got America West right. Usually saying American West.

When the Air Transat A330 fuel exhaustion incident happened, I heard several report it as an AirTran Airbus.

Yes, I have issues with the media.  box 



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5722 times:



Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 2):
Did the pilots involved lose their jobs?



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 19):
I was under the impression that Northwest's corporate name has never included the "Orient", e.g. even when they were marketing themselves as Northwest Orient Airlines through the late-80s they were still officially "Northwest Airlines, Inc."

Correct, "Orient" was just marketing terminology, never part of the legal name. Much like the word "Fly" was never part of Eastern's name.  Smile


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Photo © David Schulman



And, if memory correct, although Braniff added the word "International" to their marketing name around 1950, and included it in their aircraft livery for many years, it was never part of the legal name which remained Braniff Airways, Inc.


User currently offlineChrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2116 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5716 times:



Quoting TPA36R (Reply 11):
A CVR can still have that data on it and the chances of the NTSB being able to recover it are high. Just like any computer, when you delete something, it isn't truly gone.

Perhaps. I believe that the data was written over though. I promise you, the NTSB/FAA would say they have a good CVR recording. Doesn't the NTSB release CVR transcripts in lieu of the audio recordings?

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 13):
I suspect that this is how airlines keep the lost luggage department staffed

Good one.  Smile


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4647 times:



Quoting TPA36R (Reply 11):
Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
It won't happen because there isn't a CVR recording

Wrong.

A CVR can still have that data on it and the chances of the NTSB being able to recover it are high. Just like any computer, when you delete something, it isn't truly gone. Now WE the public will never hear the CVR in audio because it is ILLEGAL to release it.

You sure because everything I have ever heard about it was that the CVR, if this was one of the older ones, does record over every 30 minutes thus deleting all of the older information. It is not a computer by the way but a tape recorder.

FX1816


User currently offlineLrockeagle From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Is it not as widely practiced to keep a radio on 121.5? I always keep one on guard outside the vicinity of my home airport. Over the last two years I have heard many many aircraft calling other aircraft to help reestablish communications with ATC. I've also relayed quite a few convo's to low-flying aircraft.
It seems bad practice that they would not monitor guard. This is why I favor the "sleeping theory"........



Edited for clarification

[Edited 2009-11-29 20:29:26]

25 Post contains links Flighty : Call me crazy but the pilots already admitted they were distracted by looking at a laptop computer link Delta Air Lines vowed to terminate the pilots
26 Flyboy1108 : This bothers me a lot. If indeed their testimony is accurate and they were so distracted by their laptops that they didn't hear radio transmissions o
27 Rgreenftm : I wonder if the FAA/NTSB is investigating their laptop computers? Assuming one or both of them were using a Windows based system, the operating system
28 Chrisair : Easy: if a pilot (or ATC) misses a sector handoff, they can be out of that sector's radio range within a few minutes. From what a pilot friend of min
29 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Meanwhile, NW's chief pilot tries to explain what happened at DL HQ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_9TIi76a4 Apologies if posted, but I didn't find
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