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Zimbabwean Cargo Aircraft Down At Shanghai-Pudong  
User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 42590 times:


Appears the crew has survived based on the initial report. Pure speculation as the airplane/airline hasn't been mentioned, but has Avient placed their new MD-11 into service yet?


"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
246 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 42660 times:

Yes this aircraft has been in service since the 22nd Nov. when it visited Hong Kong on it's first revenue trip.

User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 42498 times:


This website mentions it is indeed an MD-11.

User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 42444 times:
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Not good. I think that this is an ex Varig MD-11F. Hopefully they find the rest of the crew, and that they are safe.

Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineAviasian From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1483 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 42280 times:

On 25 November, Avient operated an MD-11F Z-BAV from Hong Kong (dep 0430hrs LT) to Singapore (arr 0750hrs LT). It landed in Singapore in glorious sunshine - looking absolutely fantastic in its gleaming livery.

This was indeed an ex-Variglog and ex-Korean Air aircraft.

Can anyone confirm if this is the only MD-11F Avient has?

KC Sim

User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 42095 times:

Quoting Aviasian (Reply 4):
Can anyone confirm if this is the only MD-11F Avient has?

As of this past week, yes this is/was the only MD-11F Avient had. It was seen in MIA in late October/early November wearing N408SH (the way I saw it) before delivering to the company.
Shame it was tucked in amongst other planes (inc. another VarigLog MD-11) as looking back now, I should have nabbed a proof shot at least...

CNN reporting 3 of the crewmembers have passed away in the accident as well. RIP


"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2917 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 41866 times:

But why is everyone saying it's Avient? That has not been confirmed.

The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 41799 times:

Avient is the only operator of a Zimbabwe registered MD11!

User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3709 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 41701 times:
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Xinhua (official Chinese news agency) confirms it is Avient. Veered off the runway while taking off for FRU and LGG.

Local sources quoted by Xinhua say three deaths, one serious injury, three minor injuries.

[Edited 2009-11-27 20:58:13]

I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 41594 times:

I wonder if this was related to the large number of birds they have there. It has been a real problem of late.

We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 41441 times:

This was the aircraft.


Former Varig PR-LGD, now Z-BAV.

According to CH-Aviation, Avient has three DC-10-30F and one MD-11.

If you google N408SH, you will see a photo of the plane freshly painted at MIA.


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 41126 times:


If that is the airplane that crashed, then it is certainly not an MD-11

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15489 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 40989 times:

Quoting 413x3 (Reply 11):
that is the airplane that crashed, then it is certainly not an MD-11

Stock photo probably, like how we still get to see DC-10s and 727s on the evening news sometimes.

Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 40985 times:

Quoting 413x3 (Reply 11):
If that is the airplane that crashed, then it is certainly not an MD-11

News media is not known for its accuracy in these matters. That is a screenshot of a video of Dash-8 gear failure in Europe which didn't kill anyone.

User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 40988 times:

Quoting 413x3 (Reply 11):
If that is the airplane that crashed, then it is certainly not an MD-11

Stock image of the Q400 gear collapse video??? Wow...One of the sites earlier on google had an image of a DHL airplane next to it as well. Not many copy editors working the weekends I guess?

"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
User currently offlineDJ748 From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 40939 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 10):
According to CH-Aviation, Avient has three DC-10-30F and one MD-11.

I read in a recent issue of Airliner World (from the UK) an article about Avient, and they also operate an IL-76, for flights from CPT to the Antartic (when the weather is good way down south).

User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3709 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 40398 times:
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Seems to be a bit of confusion. It is now nearly certain that it was an Avient aircraft (flight SMJ234) but all stories mentioning an MD11 have been rewritten to read "Zimbabwean-registered aircraft" or similar.

So it could still be Avient's sole MD11, or one of their three DC10s.

I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 39715 times:

In that image posted above, is that another Avient aircraft on the left of the photo?

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12325 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 39552 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 17):
is that another Avient aircraft on the left of the photo?

Looks like it.

According to another site, PPRUNE, the aircraft came down about 500m beyond the end of the runway and struck a China Easter cargo warehouse.

User currently offline797charter From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 39538 times:

Quoting 413x3 (Reply 11):
If that is the airplane that crashed, then it is certainly not an MD-11

This is the photo of the Dash-8 that crashed at AAlborg, Denmark

Keep it clear of the propellers
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 39337 times:

According to the Avient website it seems pretty certain that it was their sole MD11 involved in this tragic accident  Sad

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12325 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 39334 times:

More info, from Aviation Herald:


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 38954 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 20):
According to the Avient website it seems pretty certain that it was their sole MD11 involved in this tragic accident

Yeah, certainly looks like an MD-11 winglet in the debris in the link provided by Kaitak... Sad

I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineKiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 37614 times:

So how many MD-11 frames have been lost now? 5? Apart from Concorde, (which had a much longer period of operation), would this be the highest loss rate for a commercial aircraft type?

By my count, there's this one, the Fedex one, the Swissair one, (not really related to the aircraft type), the Mandarin Airlines one.

User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 37508 times:

Isn't this the second MD11 crash in Shanghai after the Korean freighter in 1999?

Makes a total of 7 (!). Fedex 3, Mandarin 1, Swissair 1, Korean 1, Avient 1.

25 Scorpio : 7. Besides the ones you mentioned, there's also a Korean Air in 1999, also in Shanghai, and two more FedEx in 1997 and 1999.
26 Post contains links EBGflyer : Yes, it is. Not the MD11. Here's a correct use of the stock pic: http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id-8216610.html?forside
27 Kiwiinoz : Wow, only 200 aircraft of this type were built. 7 seems a big number
28 Kaitak : And don't forget the CAL/Mandarin MD11 at HKG in 1999.
29 MEA-707 : and another sad fact is that this aircraft, cn 48408/457, is ex HL7372 of Korean Air (afterwards N988PG, PR-LGD and N408SH), a sistership of HL7373 (
30 NA : Most happened during landing or take-off, illustrating the wellknown tricky behavior of that aircraft. Add to this two notable hard landings this yea
31 Petera380 : And the Fed Ex MD11 at NRT.
32 PlymSpotter : I think anyone surviving that crash should consider themselves extremely lucky. RIP to those who didn't make it out, but that's one hell of a mess to
33 Post contains links Planesailing : According to Airfleet, http://www.airfleets.net/listing/md11-1.htm, 8 MD-11 have been written off, representing 4% of the production.
34 MEA-707 : I think it's still 7. China Airlines B-150 appears twice on airfleets.net if you browse the pages.
35 Post contains links B727LVR : According to this article the crew was an all amercian crew totaling 7, with 3 not surviving the accident. It also says that the local officals believ
36 Irish251 : MD-11F Z-BAV routed PVG-FRU(Bishkek)-SNN-LGG on 22/23 November, so it has been in service for some days.
37 Lexy : My God. RIP to those who didn't make it and to those who did, it just wasn't your time so make the most with what you have. Give your family a really
38 Irobertson : Exactly my thoughts - I was horrified to read in my email that another MD-11 had been lost, and this time one so beautiful as Avient's. Their DC-10s
39 Post contains images Irobertson : According to Airfleets: "A Shanghai based pilot witnessing the crash said, that the main gear left the ground just before the end of the runway, the a
40 Comorin : It's another MD11F, but it doesn't look like the cause had anything to do with the type.
41 Wjcandee : As do virtually all commercial aircraft accidents. This is gonna be a cargo loading/overweight issue from the description given by the pilot who witn
42 Post contains links Scotland1979 : Here Z-BAV image http://www.airliners.net/photo/Avien...cDonnell-Douglas-MD-11F/1615946/L/
43 Md88captain : The eyewitness accounts do tend to point to an airplane too heavy to fly. We are taught in a situation where the plane is struggling past V1(like a wi
44 YYZALA : WOW! What an amazing livery for an MD-11. It is so sad to see another MD-11 destroyed. If this crash is somewhat similar to the MK Airlines one, then
45 LHRspotter : You are probably right although the EK incident in Melbourne and the Spanair crash in Madrid were both very similar to this one yet caused by other c
46 AirlineCritic : Cargo overload, wrong CG, bad de-rated takeoff calculations, flap settings, locked brakes, engine failure or bird strike, loss of controls at the wro
47 Bennett123 : I note that they have only been flying the MD11 for a week, would the crew have been recruited specially for this aircraft or are they likely to be re
48 413x3 : They were probably new crew hired with MD-11 experience, my guess is Gemini crew who probably flew that same aircraft type for thousands of hours
49 AirTran737 : PVG-FRU-LGG would require a four man crew for the length of the duty day. So on the plane was most likely four pilots, a mechanic, a loadmaster, and
50 Pilotaydin : oh dea i just signed on to see this, i just saw an MD 11 takeoff from here *im in Dakar, Senegal at the moment, and thought about the md 11 and its pe
51 LVZXV : It's 8. The Saudia Cargo damaged in KRT in June was ferried back to JED and declared damaged beyond economic repair, so an insurance write-off. The o
52 Gonzalo : Not only that, the airport elevation is only 13 ft., so the performance of the engines must be very good in normal conditions. Apparently they couldn
53 Bennett123 : LVZXV (some of whom admit they never were not up to the "challenge" of the MD-11). Not sure that I follow you. Do you mean (some of whom admit they we
54 LVZXV : Sorry Bennett, I changed the sentence and didn't re-read it. Should have read: were not up to the "challenge...", ie. simply chose to stick with more
55 DUALRATED : Another MD-11 crash....very sad. And unfortunately its going to bring out all of the MD-11 bashers now
56 Bennett123 : Not meaning to be critical. Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like you know some smart folks. No shame is saying "I can't do this", far better than trying
57 Flyingfox27 : Its very sad R.I.P, i hope there will be no more crashes of this beautiful plane, i wish they were still around Gatwick or Heathrow, probably need to
58 NA : That is new to me. It was reported the aircraft damage was either "minor" or "substantial". That makes 3 MD11Fs written off this year, plus possibly
59 Post contains images AMS : It looks that this same aircraft had some overloading problems when it was still flying for KE. : Regards, AMS
60 Rwy8l : Condolences to friends and families of those lost in this incident.
61 B727LVR : That would be one heck of a duty day! Pretty close to pushing the limits I think... I did not know that. Thanks for the info!
62 CodyKDiamond : What a terrible accident. My family and I send our condolences to the crew and their families and friends. Additionally, I wiksh the surviving members
63 F9Animal : I am thinking overload, or perhaps the load not being secured properly? On the MD-11, if you don't configure the wing for takeoff, could it have the
64 71Zulu : This is correct. There were 4 ex-Gemini pilots on board and 3 are now deceased in the accident. RIP and condolences to the families.
65 Post contains links Kaitak : I hadn't heard about the SV incident; can you explain the circumstances (and if possible, give the registration?) Also, I saw this on JACDEC and have
66 Longitude : Why does the photographer who published a photo of crashed MD-11 say that this airplane was written-off???
67 LVZXV : Good to know, though I am a tad surprised since the pictures I saw of it in Pprune were not good. As NA said, it is also one of the older MD-11s (I t
68 NA : That AA763 is flying again.
69 Post contains links Viscount724 : Also 7 MD-11 hull losses according to the aviatioln-safety.net accident data base. http://aviation-safety.net/database/...353%&cat=%1&sorteer=datekey
70 DUALRATED : None of the MD-11 accidents should be blamed on the A/C. The MD-11 has never been found to have any fault directly responsible for an accident..
71 413x3 : and yet every time there is an MD-11 accident the pilots who actually fly her admit she is more than a handful compared to other aircraft with some b
72 DUALRATED : But yet they still fly her...can't be that bad then Such as?
73 YYZALA : "Written off" is mostly a term used by insurers to indicate that it is of zero value to them. I guess this term caught on with the aviation industry,
74 413x3 : too small vertical stabilizers
75 DUALRATED : Has there been an accident caused by a so called small vertical stabilizer?
76 Lightsaber : "Written off" is mostly a term used by insurers to indicate that it is of zero value to them.[/quote] Nitpick, "written off" means to absorb an accoun
77 Zeke : According to a local HKG paper, the South China Morning Post, probably the best English translation on Chinese news about. * 3 dead are American, conf
78 Post contains links Irelayer : What a tragedy. RIP to the victims. I just now came across this... http://www.metafilter.com/87033/A-Cr...-raises-questions-about-an-airline Seems thi
79 UK_Dispatcher : That has nothing to do with overloading, but a Centre of Gravity beyond its limits. The MD11 needs to be loaded in a certain way in order to avoid ta
80 76er : Although it's far too early to jump to conclusions here, so far this crash shows all the signs of an error of either the calculated takeoff performanc
81 Longitude : In Russia we use this term to indicate an aircraft which has flown out its hours.
82 Loalq : Also another MD11F on this pic, right? The one with Lufthansa Cargo?
83 A1ring23 : Although technically there hasn't been a design flaw found with the MD-11F, the fact that it has been lost so frequently, 7 hull losses from a produc
84 NA : A crash directly caused by a severe constructive failure is very rare (the Lauda Air 767 crash comes to my mind). The worst MD11 accident, the Swissa
85 Kaitak : That's really just because the majority - apart from one or two with WO and KL's ten - have been converted to freighters. I believe the FX M11 that c
86 FRA2DTW : You have to wonder about that. Some large operators (such as KLM, Varig and Delta) have operated the type with little trouble. Even the freight outfi
87 Zeke : I understand the 4 American pilots were all ex-Gemini. It is a little too early to suggest if the pilots were a contributing cause, apparently they a
88 Flaps : Correction. The control issues with the MD11 are caused by undersized horizontal stabilizers not the vertical stabilizer.
89 Pylon101 : It would be quite a blunder. Have you ever heard of such mistakes? Things happen. But to mix up ZFG line and GW line in FMS - most important ones for
90 Sandyb123 : The EK 345 tail strike and near crash at MEL last year was due to miss-calculations in the gross weight of the aircraft. I have read elsewhere that t
91 DUALRATED : could not agree more!
92 BlueFlyer : You fail to account for the relative difference in fleet sizes. The more aircraft you have of one type, the more likely you are to have more accident
93 Viscount724 : Wasn't AA the largest original MD-11 (passenger model) customer? They also appear to have operated their 20 or so MD-11s with no reported accidents f
94 747classic : Don't forget the influence of the common pilot rating on the MD 11 and MD10, only effectuated by Fedex, for commercial reasons. IMO this is an extra
95 71Zulu : AA did not have any landing accidents but they did have 2 upset incidents in cruise that caused 18 minor and 3 serious injuries in 1994 and 1996. In
96 MEA-707 : Nice to read, just when I have a Finnair MD-11 flight to Bangkok in 2 weeks time
97 Cerecl : In the wake of this accident, CAAC (the regulatory authority of aviation in China) grounded all the MD-11F in the country. The aircraft is still opera
98 Gonzalo : Do you have a source ??? Personally I found that measure a little hysterical, and even more, if they don't ban all the other MD 11 operators in China
99 FX1816 : The one that FX just had crash in Tokyo in March was originally N813DE with Delta and was the only one to have worn the Wavy Gravy livery. I do belie
100 Wjcandee : Their web site says they currently have six passenger MD11s They have the five that they bought new, including three standard and two -ERs. They had
101 FX1816 : Very cool, thank you for the update. FX1816
102 Wjcandee : My pleasure. Thanks for the feedback! By the way, you probably know this but the one they picked up in July/August was formerly OH-LGA from Finnair a
103 Post contains links 747classic : Most MD11 freighters are built or modified to be operated at increased landing weights. For the 630.000 lbs MTOW version (most common now) : MLW of a
104 Post contains links Cerecl : China Grounds All MD-11 (by YLWbased Nov 29 2009 in Civil Aviation) A bit harsh. CAAC is faced with a balancing act with a number of factors to consi
105 Post contains links N707PA : Here's a couple of DL incidents: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX93IA198&rpt=fa http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...?file=/dft_avsafety_
106 SEPilot : No, it's just another crash of a type with by far the worst crash rate of any modern airliner. Move on, nothing to see here. And this is the crux of
107 Comorin : I do agree with you, but I was referring to this specific incident which occurred at take-off. Was it a handling issue or a loading/flaps issue? The
108 JoeCanuck : What if the plane was overloaded? Or encountered wind shear? Or encountered any of the plethora of problems which have brought down airliners in the p
109 SEPilot : I plead guilty to being biased against the MD-11, and hence when I hear of another MD-11 crash I presume that it is likely that its handling characte
110 AirlineCritic : I have a real hard time understanding how "handling characteristics" could have played any role in this incident. The MD-11 is a powerful machine. Wh
111 Post contains links 71Zulu : Here's a story on the lone surviving pilot, http://wcco.com/local/plane.crash.china.2.1338562.html CHANHASSEN, Minnesota (WCCO) ― A pilot from Chanh
112 SepulTALLICA : If you actually did some research on Avient, you'd realize that the only thing that plane had to do with Zim was its registration. Avient is a Zimbab
113 Na : Add to it that the aircraft was flying for Avient since just about one week. What can an airline do wrong in one week?
114 FX1816 : Very cool, looks like they are using that reg. again on a different MD11?? FX1816
115 MIAMIx707 : Avient's 2nd MD-11 (ex. Varig Log as well) is already painted but after news of the accident it was quickly towed inside a hangar and the tail logo ha
116 MIAMIx707 : ...due to the small horizontal stabilizer vs the one on DC-10's. Also a main cause to why the MD11 at Narita bounced and pitched down hard on it's no
117 Post contains links Bennett123 : According to www.airfleets.net, the last Gemini MD11 was withdrawn on 24/12/2008. Given that the aircrew were ex Gemini, does this mean that the crew
118 MD11Engineer : Sorry to interupt you, but one of my previous companies had some experiences with another cargo airline, which had it´s headquarters in the UK, oper
119 Bennett123 : I think we can guess who the Ghanaian company is. I have seen their planes at Kemble, Filton and Manston
120 SEPilot : According to pilots who have flown it, it is very touchy on the controls, especially when close to the ground. There have been numerous tail strikes
121 Pellegrine : Does anyone know anything more about the company concerned? I have heard/read things that they have a knack for skirting regulations, possible illicit
122 JoeCanuck : This accident, on the other hand, had the plane crashing into a building I believe, making comparisons to MLG failure accidents irrelevant.
123 Wjcandee : Dunno how long ago they would have used that reg. The original 3 new-build MD11 pax models were 271, 272 and 273. Then they had 2 CFs and 1 straight
124 AirGabon : This airline is mostly involved in weapons transport, mostly to Africa, HQ in UK, before was based in Vatry France but moved to Liege Belgium because
125 MEA-707 : The DC-10 also had flip-overs on landing; the Sioux City United crash in 1989 and the Martinair at Faro in 1992. Of course especially Sioux City had
126 Woof : IIRC, it's right wing hit the deck and then later sheared off completely. I don't think there are too many types who's characteristics could be predi
127 DUALRATED : "we shall let someone who's not a noob (NON-pilot) tell us, before throwing “facts” around. An MD-11 pilot himself/herself would be a good start"
128 747classic : This year alone we had four (4) major accidents/incidents with MD11(F) aircraft. And that of a total count of less than 200 remaining MD 11 aircraft.
129 MD11Engineer : Maybe the general level of airmanship has decreased over the last 20 or so years, with less and less airlines offering cadet programmes based on apti
130 AverageUser : That's an internet myth or meme you do love to propagate. An aircraft's stabilizer will be large enough when it will produce enough arm to make the m
131 Woof : Maybe it's large enough to pass certification, and enough to cope with any normal conditions, but a larger stabiliser might well help give more room
132 MD11Engineer : I don´t know how this can work, since the MD-11 is controlled in the classical way as "fly-by-cable". There are no computers involved between the ma
133 SEPilot : I was unaware of the Martinair accident; when I looked it up I could not find an account that specifically said that it flipped over; it does say tha
134 Post contains links AverageUser : You probably know this better than I do, but this is where I found what I wrote, I'm sure the LH MD-11s have using the same load for years, although
135 Md88captain : I flew the MD11 with DAL and it had positive attributes. A big, comfy cockpit. Excellent instrumentation. Reliable automation. It was however the wors
136 AverageUser : That was with or without the latest software load?
137 MD11Engineer : Ok, this makes sense. According to my type rating instructors, the MD-11 was designed to have, unlike most aircraft, which fly slightly nose up, a ho
138 Post contains links NA : Thanks for your professional verdict on the MD11 I count 6 (!), 2 or 3 write-offs, 2 or 3 still unclear N526FE Fedex crash, a/c written off Z-BAV Avi
139 NA : Addition to my last post: I found out that B-2175 has been repaired.
140 71Zulu : Here's a summary of the MD-11 incidents and accidents that I have found. List may not be complete. Probable cause if listed listed comes from the NTSB
141 Post contains links 747classic : This software change is not legally necessary. No AD is available. The NTSB and FAA are very reluctant to take action. see : http://www.nolan-law.com
142 DUALRATED : Eye opening indeed! .....most of the accidents are in the landing config, and most are attributed to crew error... hmm.
143 MD11Engineer : Spotters and enthusiasts, will you pls. shut up with your statistics, which don´t mean anything in thid case? You sound like sports fans! Pls. leave
144 777STL : Though that's not what happened here thus making that irrelevant.
145 Md88captain : I actually was on the aircraft during that LSAS software upgrade. Its main benefit -that I saw- was that it was much easier to control the nose during
146 SEPilot : Not necessarily; the MLG failure accidents were also related to the control/stability issues, and I suspect that they may have played a part in this
147 MD11Engineer : Because during the several years I maintained MD-11 aircraft I met a lot of MD-11 pilots. Most of them liked the aircraft and took it´s pecularities
148 Atpcliff : Hi. I got a tour of an MD-11F recently, and the capt said it is about impossible to fly well. He said you have to leave the autopilot on all the time.
149 SEPilot : This says something about the kind of person who becomes a pilot; most of them take pride in their performance, and do not like to acknowledge that t
150 Post contains links AverageUser : You are thinking the situation the wrong way up. We need to look at the worst case scenario first. That will be the worst centre of gravity, and flyi
151 Viscount724 : Seems strange that your list doesn't incluide any reports involving KLM and they've been operating the MD-11 for 16 years and as far as I know they h
152 AverageUser : Thanks for the list. I took a liberty to excelize and sort it by the operator, see below. What is remarkable to me is that the U.S. operators, with t
153 Pellegrine : Maybe we will find an improperly secured and/or faulty munition is to blame. That would certainly be an exciting end.
154 B727LVR : It seems that FED EX + Subic Bay + MD11 = a ROUGH time. I was shocked to see how many of their accidents/incidents involved Subic Bay. Any word on ho
155 747classic : FedEx and UPS both operate only freighter MD11 aircraft, with high MLW. Both fleets are relative large and statistically should have comparable accid
156 AirlineCritic : But I wonder if the list really is complete. I seem to recall that there was a Finnair MD-11 minor tailstrike incident in JFK many years ago, for ins
157 SEPilot : This is accurate as far as it goes; and I have no problem with your approach. The difficulty is defining what the worst situation the plane is going
158 Woof : I'm not going to comment on what you sound like, but why are accident/incident statistics irrelevant in yet another case of an MD11 accident? They ma
159 B727LVR : Question... By stretched, do you mean in the literal sense or the physical? Not trying to be smart or anything, just trying to understand more of whe
160 MD11Engineer : The aerodynamics of the elevators are not the same on the DC-10 and MD-11. While the DC-10 has conventional elevators, the MD-11 has slotted elevator
161 Post contains links 71Zulu : Here's an update on Captain Bill Johnson, http://wcco.com/local/bill.johnson.plane.2.1346003.html he is still in hospital recovering.
162 MIAMIx707 : Even the somewhat informed aviation enthusiast could have come up with those causes based on past takeoff incidents. It doesn't take Joe MD11Mechanic
163 Cerecl : Had to pick my words carefully to avoid offending MD-11 aficionados... Thanks I stand corrected on this point. Anyhoo, CAAC has now denied that they
164 SEPilot : Hey, it doesn't bother me to offend them. I call it as I see it; you can disagree at your will, and if you are offended it's your problem.
165 Teva : This is completely irrelevent. 2 of the Fx crashes (EWR flip over in 1997 and Subic runway overrun ending in the sea, 1999) occured before MD10 certi
166 Gonzalo : No surprise to me. Like I said many post ago in this thread, an hysterical reaction like that is useless. Saludos. G.
167 747classic : Pls, read my post completely, before making a comment. Second part of post : In 2000 the FCC-208 software was introduced to produce an MD11 with more
168 CosmicCruiser : That's true but more so those 2 acidents really had nothing to do with the MD-11.
169 MIAMIx707 : The delivery flight was delayed about 2 days. Some of the flight plans were canceled it seems (the plane didn't take off the day of filing the flight
170 CosmicCruiser : It is a fact but in the sim I've never thought it was a major issue. I would say a possible action that can occur especially if the crew may be less
171 Md88Captain : I would have expected a little more information by now since the FO was alive and talking. Maybethe quiet is just a function of it being China.
172 Bennett123 : Cosmiv Cruiser AFAIK the crew are ex Gemini, which makes that less likely.
173 413x3 : Yes I believe they were experienced crew that used to work for Gemini, at least the Americans in the group
174 AverageUser : You're of course free to think otherwise, but I really don't think anyone concerned, including the designers and people who certified the airplane, f
175 CosmicCruiser : I was never taught anything of the such when I went to school. It angles down but off centerline ?
176 757GB : Something that was a little freaky was that that aircraft was in MVD a few days before crashing. It was sitting VERY close to the Centurion MD11 (also
177 MD11Engineer : But you can´t say that you wouldn´t be warned if#2 engine spools down. You have a big warning light right in front of you and IIRC a "Bitching Bett
178 AverageUser : In side view, the #2 engine is offset with the center both in X and Y, unlike in e.g. the L1011, which is offset only in X. Useful and necessary if o
179 MIAMIx707 : The Avient MD-11 was seen at Montevideo? It seems this company is flying everywhere like Gemini used to, everywhere except to the United States. One-
180 CosmicCruiser : Takeoff Inhibits - Level 3 alerts and associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited from V1 to 400' RA, but no longer than 25 seconds in-air. Level
181 MD11Engineer : I haven´t been working on MD-11 aircraft since about 4 years now, but I checked in my old LAM schematics. Our MD-11s had a light (IIRC on the glares
182 Post contains links and images AverageUser : The automation must be aware of it all the same. Here's a NASA picture of how you could control the pitch by the thrust differential between #1 and #
183 CosmicCruiser : Ours has the eng fail light on the glareshield too but the master warning is inhibited as I posted. More so than that you wouldn't have the identifyi
184 757GB : Sure enough it was, and it was on Thursday before the crash. I saw it myself but didn't know which airline it belonged to (saw it from far away as I
185 SEPilot : This is quite true, but why have MD-11 cargo jets crashed far more often in proportion to their numbers than ANY other freighter?
186 413x3 : Well aren't the MD-11s being used in larger numbers than any other freighter?
187 AverageUser : With a considerable statistical significance, you can rephrase that question as "why does FedEx crash their MD-11s far more often in proportion to th
188 SEPilot : Excellent question, and one that I addressed specifically earlier. But even if you exclude FedEx completely from the statistics (which, considering t
189 747classic : No , the 747-400 is the most frequent freighter : Dedicated built : 126x 747-400F 40x 747-400ERF Converted : approx 47x 747-400 by Boeing (STC-holder
190 AverageUser : Why does the competition, UPS, seem to be able to fly the beast without a hull-loss, whereas FedEx wrecks them at steady intervals? Some steadfastly
191 SEPilot : I agree that FedEx has a problem with the MD-11. Perhaps it is because they are the only operator that utilizes the common type rating with the MD-10
192 Post contains links AverageUser : I need no such thing, I'm only interested in the facts. You said the MD-11 is "an order of magnitude" (which is 10 times) worse than the next type. W
193 DUALRATED : Well said, Why can't some folks grasp the point that the aircraft may not be operated correctly, and that immediate corrective training may be needed
194 CosmicCruiser : As I mentioned before 2 were not the fault of the airplane.
195 DUALRATED : When has an MD-11 crashed and it was found that the aircraft was at fault?
196 MD88captain : The MD11 flys like a swimming pool half full of water. A 747 is very stable and well mannered. A 777 flys like a dream. Different aircraft have differ
197 Viscount724 : It's 7 not 8. And you also have to look at the accident circumstances. For example, the Swissair 111 crash near YHZ was the result of a fire in cabin
198 SEPilot : You are correct on that. So I will refigure my question. With 4 non Fedex hull losses out of 200, that makes a loss proportion of 2%. Just for compar
199 DUALRATED : Because I don't think thats the issue with the facts given. You've answered that question yourself, and quite well I might add... 1) "it will work fi
200 CosmicCruiser : What I'm saying is that if someone makes several bad decisions and elects to continue an approach with several "red flags" in your face you could cra
201 Post contains links Prebennorholm : This paper http://www.nolan-law.com/crash-point...-11s-vulnerability-during-landing/ decribes the MD-11 "special characteristics" in detail, and much
202 Md88captain : Prebennorholm. That some pretty crazy talk. You speak like you have knowledge but your conclusions betray a lack of understanding. A "severe crew erro
203 AverageUser : So the source of data for your accident analysis was finally none other but yourself? Modesty is a virtue, but sometimes it's prudent to say who prov
204 DUALRATED : Understood and agreed. Forgive me if I miss understood your post, it just sounded like when you said "2 were not the fault of the airplane" it sounde
205 Wjcandee : I used to drive a 911. I submit that a whole lot of people would have had a great time driving it, and, given the chance, would gladly take it home f
206 747classic : Every time something happens with the MD11 the same topic comes up again, seen the questionable flight behavior of this aircraft. The MD11 is far more
207 SEPilot : The facts are the much worse accident rate for the MD-11 than any other current airliner. But why is it always MD-11's that crash? None of the others
208 AverageUser : Well, everybody repeats the internet meme of "questionable flight behaviour", but nobody seems to be able to point out what that behaviour is. On lan
209 CosmicCruiser : Not really but there are some situations where you can just be in the wrong place at the wrong time and find that things go from good to horrible in
210 747classic : That's why i am advocating an increase in legal minimum training exercises, especially in landing training in adverse weather conditions at maximum l
211 SEPilot : I thought Md88Captain spelled it out quite well. The plane is much more touchy than any other, especially close to the ground. This gives you a much
212 MD88Captain : Averageuser. I answered your question about the software change in post 145 of this thread. I thought it was a fairly comprehensive answer to your que
213 747classic : I fully agree.
214 Post contains links Rcair1 : In an effort to inject some data into this - and since the two combatants won't - I thought I would. This data is from www.airsafe.com - not me - and
215 Post contains links AverageUser : Thanks that you did. Perhaps I was vain while scanning, and hoping to find my humble username mentioned, or my question quoted, or FCC-908 mentioned
216 747classic : Don't hide behind another. I looked at that site and found the definition of a Fatal Event, used to calculate this list : " Any circumstance where on
217 SEPilot : I believe what you are looking at is passenger fatalities, which is not what we were talking about. What I was doing was comparing hull losses due to
218 Md88Captain : Yes, Averageuser. I did survive the MD11. I'm thankful for that. I would point out the advantages that I had: extensive military and civilian part 121
219 Slinky09 : Sadly, a friend of mine at AA used to refer to the DC10 as the death cruiser and the MD11 as more death 2 ... and this was 15 years ago.
220 Md88Captain : Yes, I had forgotten "Death Crusier". I heard that concerning the MD11 a few times. Of course, the moniker "Death Crusier" was also designed to keep m
221 Prebennorholm : CG was not too far in front, so it wouldn't rotate. Had that been the case, then it wouldn't have made a tail strike. CG too far back was not the sin
222 Md88Captain : The cg too far forward could have easily been the cause. I'm aware of a couple of incidents both military and civilian where the aircraft wouldn't uns
223 SEPilot : But could it have struck the tail with a too far forward CG? Actually, it was ferried back to Toulouse and repaired.
224 AverageUser : Apparently you do not like up-to-date data, the actual number is 5, the regs are HL7229, N20643, SU-GBI, VP-BKO, N18611. That is 5 out of 389, which,
225 SEPilot : Where did you get your data from? I went to the Aviation Safety Network, which you recommended, and searched for 737-500 accidents and came up with 3
226 Post contains links 747classic : I found an old article (September 2000) about the MD 11 accident rate, compared to other aircraft. The relevant part is quoted here : Comparison With
227 AverageUser : FYI, "IASA" is a site and organization funded by a Swissair tragedy widow using her compensation monies. As you note, the site seems to have run out
228 Post contains links 747classic : AverageUser, the following link of "Boeing Accident Statistics till and included 2008" may convince you. Look at page 21 ( Accident Rates by Airplane
229 AverageUser : A question: what do I need convincing for?
230 NA : This is not worth much. You split A300 and A310, which are very similar, but you dont split the 744 from the 747 Classics, which are technically very
231 AverageUser : Also worth noting is the fact that safety-aware travellers should prefer operators flying the IL-96, as it has never been involved in a hull-loss acci
232 Rcair1 : Give me a break - I didn't hide anything, or hide behind anything - I clearly told you where you could get information about the data an analysis. I
233 Rcair1 : Nope - not me, musta been somebody else. You are absolutely correct, and this does add confusion (in the data analysis/statistics sense) to the resul
234 Post contains links Rcair1 : I did not split the data - www.airsafe.com did. I don't know why. Perhaps because the 300 and 310 showed relatively different rates and maybe (we don
235 SEPilot : I am an engineer as well, and to me order of magnitude has a very precise definition, which seems to be the only thing AverageUser and I agree on; an
236 NA : I know the data. The online databases are not the last word. Other sites also unjustifiedly throw the 744 and the Classics together while they split
237 747classic : Using the data provided by the manufacturer of the Boeing MD11, I cannot come to another conclusion : Of all comparable aircraft, with approx. the sa
238 Rcair1 : Oh - I agree - order of magnitude is precisely 10x larger or smaller. I'm sorry I did not make my point clear. What I meant was that "order of magnit
239 Rcair1 : While Boeing continued to manufacture the MD11 after merging with McDonald Douglass in, only for a few years. The MD 11 was not designed by Boeing -
240 Bennett123 : Furthermore, 1 A310 crashed because the pilot let his son fly. If it was that easy, airlines would recruit their pilots from school kids as well.
241 SEPilot : In actuality, the newer types are safer largely because of improved training and procedures, specifically CRM. I think you will find that if you take
242 AverageUser : Improved training is indeed the word. The NTSB has asked for the FAA to mandate more (simulator) training for the MD-11 operators. Nothing has happen
243 B727LVR : If I am getting my air frames correct, this aircraft is now flying with UPS as N293UP ex N802DE. Engine fire on #3, Boeing AOG team did the repairs,
244 SEPilot : What is your qualification for saying this is technically nonsense? Are you an aeronautical engineer?
245 CosmicCruiser : Actually we have added a detailed addition to trg regarding bounce recovery. It was always in the book but now moore emphasis is on this scenerio. Th
246 Post contains links Jayeshrulz : Zimbabwean Cargo Aircraft Down At Shanghai-Part 2 (by Jayeshrulz Dec 9 2009 in Civil Aviation) thread carried forward please discuss here.
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