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AF445: Mayday Call Due To Severe Turbulence  
User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56339 times:

From avherald.com:

An Air France Airbus A330-200, registration F-GZCK performing flight AF-445 from Sao Paulo Guarulhos,SP (Brazil) to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France), was enroute at FL380 overhead the Atlantic on airway UN741 just before waypoint DEKON about 680nm northeast of Fortaleza,CE (Brazil) and 750nm southwest of Praia (Portugal, Cape Verde), when the crew called Mayday on the international emergency frequency indicating, they encountered severe turbulence and were descending to a lower altitude. The airplane was seen enroute at FL280 overhead France and landed safely at Paris Charles de Gaulle 6:40 hours after the emergency call.

The Mayday call was relayed by the crew of a TAM Airbus A330-200 registration PT-MVG performing flight JJ-8055 from Paris CDG to Rio de Janeiro,RJ (Brazil) at around 03:50Z (Nov 30th).

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42380873&opt=0

I cannot even imagine what was going through the minds of the crew and pax, I'm sure AF447 was on their minds.

[Edited 2009-11-30 09:06:09 by jreuschl]

167 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTom355uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56307 times:

Just picked up on this, what immediately struck me was the similarity to AF447:

Almost identical point in flight, similar time of day (or night, technically), and severe enough to cause a well trained professional crew to call mayday - signifying something quite beyond the norm.

One point I did consider, would the 'Mayday' call itself substitute for a request to parallel the track if they had a technical problem, much the same as would be required when deviating from one of the NAT's?

It'll be interesting to hear from AF on this.....



on Twitter @tombeckett2285
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10923 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56146 times:



Quoting Jreuschl (Thread starter):
The airplane was seen enroute at FL280 overhead France and landed safely at Paris Charles de Gaulle 6:40 hours after the emergency call.

Most important thing of all is that they returned the aircraft, crew and passengers on the ground safely all the way to CDG. Congratulations to all involved, cockpit and cabin crews and air traffic controllers.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4289 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56031 times:

I wonder what event(s) caused the Mayday signal? Was it just the severe jostling? I would think that it couldn't have been that severe if they continued on to Paris and chose not to divert but I don't know exactly what happened.

Yes, the similarities to AF447 are more than apparent - was this just a coincidence? Did the knowledge of that tragedy lead to or influence the decision to call a Mayday on this flight?



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56036 times:

AF445 is actually a GIG-CDG and is also the flight number that replaced AF447.

User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 56048 times:

Maybe all operators of A330 South America-Europe should reconsider going through the ITCZ when there is as much of a hint of a cloud on the radar. That weather picture looks incredibly scary, even though based on the circle the plane only went through the edge of whatever weather system that was. Perhaps they should fly further due north out of GRU/GIG before making the Atlantic crossing.


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 55972 times:

AF445 is GIG-CDG, not GRU-CDG ...
It is actually the new flight number that replaces AF447 since the accident of F-GZCP last June...
I guess one must be careful with this kind of "sensational" news ...

[Edited 2009-11-30 09:32:32]

User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 55893 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Most important thing of all is that they returned the aircraft, crew and passengers on the ground safely all the way to CDG. Congratulations to all involved, cockpit and cabin crews and air traffic controllers.

Could not agree more!

I wonder if the pax did a nice applause upon landing.


User currently offlinePhen From Ireland, joined Oct 2007, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 55799 times:

That is an eerie coincidence - almost exactly 6 months to the day too. Glad everyone got to CDG safely - well done to all involved.

[Edited 2009-11-30 09:27:47]

User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 55708 times:

Poor passengers and crew! I can’t even begin to imagine the state of mind of the people aboard this flight. Same airline, aircraft, and route as AF447. I hope the investigators will have a close look at the date aboard this aircraft to see if there is anything that can shed some light on the AF447 mystery.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 55715 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 5):
Maybe all operators of A330 South America-Europe should reconsider going through the ITCZ when there is as much of a hint of a cloud on the radar.

What are the disadvantages when flying an A330 in bad weather compared to any other type of aircraft?



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 55665 times:

Would the black boxes/flight recorders be pulled from this flight to see if any info could be used for AF447?

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 55534 times:

Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 11):
Would the black boxes/flight recorders be pulled from this flight to see if any info could be used for AF447?

To see what ? They "just" went thru severe turbulence ... No techincal troubles as far as I know so what do you expect they could find in the "black boxes" related to AF447 ????

[Edited 2009-11-30 10:10:31]

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13436 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 55487 times:
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Quoting Jreuschl (Thread starter):
they encountered severe turbulence and were descending to a lower altitude. The airplane was seen enroute at FL280 overhead France and landed safely at Paris Charles de Gaulle 6:40 hours after the emergency call.

In a word, wow. Well done to the pilots. I hope they understand (either its happened or will) being grilled so that AF447 may be better understood.

There should be some data of value on the flight records, but too much would be erased. The recorders I've seen of Pratt powered A330's had an amazing amount of flight data, but I do not know if there is a vendor to vendor difference (either engine data collected and time frame or the black box vendor).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54638 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 12):
To see what ? They "just" went through severe turbulence ... No techincal troubles as far as I know so what do you expect they could find in the "black boxes" related to AF447 ????

Maybe that's because of this kind of attitude that AF is asking his crews to be assessed by an exterior team with DL veterans...

They didn't "just" go thru turbulences, they launched a mayday which is not everyday

Jreuschl didn't say data found would be related to AF447, he assumes that by checking what happened on AF445 generating a mayday it could help understanding things

Sorry, but neither AF or BEA are in a position of giving lessons on what hapenned or not with AF447, so every piece of info allowing further analysis is needed
The routing, the precise position where the mayday was launched and the type of plane in this precise incident are very interesting



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2897 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54415 times:

What a scary experience! Just after the crash of AF 447 I talked to an ex-Pan Am pilot (who went on to fly for UA) who told me that the equatorial region off of Africa has storm systems unlike anything seen at higher (or lower) latitudes. He said they would sometimes have to fly a great deal out of the way on U.S.-Africa flights to specifically avoid them...


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 53636 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 14):
Sorry, but neither AF or BEA are in a position of giving lessons on what hapenned or not with AF447

Nobody is giving lessons to anyone here ...

The CVR is designed to record crew conversations and communications into memory block unit in flight and on ground, when at least one engine is running or up to five minutes after the last engine is shut down. The recorder is a four-track system and all tracks are recorded simultaneously.
The CVR provides storage for 2 hours of consecutive recording for each of the four audio input channels.

So in the case of that incident, listening to the CVR is useless.

The DFDR can store all data which the FDIMU has collected over the last 25 hours.

As no particular technical problem seems to have occurred on this flight, I don't see what information could be used to help the investigations on AF447.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 14):
they launched a mayday which is not everyday

Not everyday ... but not that unusual. A mayday can be launched in a difficult situation as a precaution, as it gives priority over all other flights if the situation is getting worse for a potential diversion or route/altitude/speed change ...


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6837 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 53333 times:

If the TAM airplane had not been there, nobody would have received the mayday call ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4289 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 53316 times:



Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 11):
Would the black boxes/flight recorders be pulled from this flight to see if any info could be used for AF447?

I believe the black boxes record over themselves every 30 or 60 minutes, right?, so considering the flight went on for another 6 hours I'd hazard a guess by saying there is little that can be taken from them.

On the other hand, they have (at least) two live crew members to talk to from the flight deck and perhaps some interesting telemetry that was beamed by the aircraft back to AF HQ. The similarities to AF447 seem interested on paper but in reality they are probably completely seperate events and may have very little in common.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5138 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 52912 times:



Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the pax did a nice applause upon landing.

Why they would have been told .? No reason in my view. Short of warning them of an imminent ditching , what useful purpose would it have served ?


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 52464 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
The CVR is designed to record crew conversations and communications into memory block unit in flight and on ground, when at least one engine is running or up to five minutes after the last engine is shut down. The recorder is a four-track system and all tracks are recorded simultaneously.
The CVR provides storage for 2 hours of consecutive recording for each of the four audio input channels.

So in the case of that incident, listening to the CVR is useless.

The DFDR can store all data which the FDIMU has collected over the last 25 hours.

As no particular technical problem seems to have occurred on this flight, I don't see what information could be used to help the investigations on AF447.

Everything you say is true and accurate.
Personnally I don't focus necessarily on the FDR, you can also interview the crew, I mean more than the average report and interview considering the circumstances

I discuss often with JJ A332 technicians and the technical debriefing after the flight: there might be something in the DFDR/FDIMU data that could help.

Even if there was no big failure, there might be indications, messages, stored data....
This incident cannot be treated like it's just another mayday, you know more than me how some people related to AF445 would feel



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 52411 times:

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):
Why they would have been told .? No reason in my view. Short of warning them of an imminent ditching , what useful purpose would it have served ?

If the turbulence is severe enough to issue a mayday warning, I would think the passengers would felt this turbulence.

Maybe they didn't clap. I know there was a thread on this board asking if some passengers still clap on landing.. some do even on a perfectly normal flight.

[Edited 2009-11-30 11:06:51 by jreuschl]

User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 51602 times:

DEKON seems to be on UN866. If they were indeed on UN741, the correct waypoint would be NANIK. I'm pointing this out in case it would affect the report position on the GOES IR image, thus putting them closer to the red areas.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
If the TAM airplane had not been there, nobody would have received the mayday call ?

They were at FL380, which is pretty high. I'd guess the mayday call took place because they wanted to descend immediately to increase their airspeed margins. And they were probably more concerned with other aircraft knowing that than Oceanic control.

In any case, I'd be pissing my pants if I were a passenger.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4851 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 51293 times:
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Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 10):
What are the disadvantages when flying an A330 in bad weather compared to any other type of aircraft?

That is an odd question. I would say there are non. The A330 has only seen 1 fatal crash since EIS, as did the B777. These two fine airliners must be the safest large airliners out there today. Maybe the question should be: in which airliner would I like to be if such circumstances arise. I would vote for the A330 and the B777.  Wink


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 51209 times:

Ouch, that is one scary coincidence, considering tomorrow AF0447's crash is exactly 6 months ago.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Most important thing of all is that they returned the aircraft, crew and passengers on the ground safely all the way to CDG. Congratulations to all involved, cockpit and cabin crews and air traffic controllers.

Congratulations indeed!

Quoting Richierich (Reply 3):
I wonder what event(s) caused the Mayday signal?

Apparently nothing that really hurted the aircraft or people aboard it.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 3):

Yes, the similarities to AF447 are more than apparent - was this just a coincidence? Did the knowledge of that tragedy lead to or influence the decision to call a Mayday on this flight?

I tend to believe that. How professional one can be, thoughts like this always play in your mind when this things occur.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 9):
I hope the investigators will have a close look at the date aboard this aircraft to see if there is anything that can shed some light on the AF447 mystery.

Now that would be a great development!

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 10):

What are the disadvantages when flying an A330 in bad weather compared to any other type of aircraft?

We don't now, but fact remains that the A330 was downed under exactly the same circumstances.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 23):
Maybe the question should be: in which airliner would I like to be if such circumstances arise. I would vote for the A330 and the B777. Wink

I wouldn't like to be in any airliner in such circumstances. Please get me right, I'm not saying the A330 is unsafe, nor that it isn't able to handle bad weather. But it went down in bad weather, and all signs point in the direction of weather being a major factor in that crash. We don't know yet if it says something about the design or solidness of the A330, and that is actually the most scary part of it.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 12):

To see what ? They "just" went thru severe turbulence ... No techincal troubles as far as I know so what do you expect they could find in the "black boxes" related to AF447 ????

If they 'just' went thru severe turbulence, they wouldn't have been issuing a mayday call in the middle over the Atlantic.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 14):

Maybe that's because of this kind of attitude that AF is asking his crews to be assessed by an exterior team with DL veterans...

Spot on.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):

Not everyday ... but not that unusual.

A mayday-call over the atlantic? I'd say that's quite unusual.

EDIT TO ANSWER EPA001's POST!

[Edited 2009-11-30 11:43:51]


Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
25 Post contains images EPA001 : We do not know this (sadly enough). All we can say now that this event happened during similar or comparable circumstances, but we can not state "exa
26 FlySSC : But that's what they did ... as far as we know. And why not ? Again, the "mayday" can be explained by the urgent necessity (because of the severe tur
27 LUPOR1D : Presumably SLOP can be used on these airways, I dont have access to charts for the south atlantic so I'm unaware.[Edited 2009-11-30 12:17:47]
28 Lightsaber : There would be some very abnormal conditions that they would see the data. Sad but true, something happened they don't know about... yet. Cracks nuck
29 EPA001 : I could, and I could also add the B747 for sure. I understand your suggestion and I agree with it by itself. But my example lists two airliners of wh
30 Aesma : Thanks. I wonder if it was the only reason, though (not taking into consideration the fact that the crew could have played safe considering AF447). I
31 FlySSC : They wouldn't have continued the flight for another 7 hours all the way to CDG... They would have diverted for sure.
32 BlueFlyer : The report implies the plane flew at FL280 to CDG. Why ? Surely the weather wasn't that bad all the way to destination...
33 Varig md-11 : Fascinating That's what I mean and which you explain in proper wording and with engineering examples
34 IDISA : I absolutely won't speculate on anything but one thing that really kept my attention when I read this news was the fact that they went through turbule
35 Aesma : Well can't you fly without AP ? You can't start the ocean crossing that way, but once you're already half way... Yeah that seemed odd to me too. How
36 Lightsaber : Oops... I re-read, my mistake. You make a very valid point. Both the A330 and 777 have proven very dependable and safe in service. I didn't mean to r
37 Sandyb123 : This sounds very scary but as others have pointed out, if the crew felt that they where in imminent danger then I am surprised they continued to CDG (
38 Astuteman : I'll almost guarantee that that's not correct my friend. Similar, perhaps. But EXACTLY the same? Given that we still don't KNOW the exact circumstanc
39 LJ : Last week I flew EZE-MAD on IB and the crew warned just before take off that we would encounter more than normal turbulence during the flight. Furthe
40 BrouAviation : You are both right, I stand corrected. Comparable WX circumstances might indeed be a better thing to say. Still, the similarities in both cases are s
41 Speedbird128 : What similarites? Some storms about? For all intents and purposes it would most likely have been CAT as crews are pretty diligent to track around act
42 DocLightning : Well, the only relevant similarities were that the two A/C were of the same type flying the same route at about the same time of day in about the sam
43 474218 : Since the USAF flies their C-130's and NOAA their P-3's right in to hurricanes with no problems I would choose the L-1011 since it was designed and b
44 BrouAviation : Same flight Same aircraft type Same area Same airline Possibly very comparable WX circumstances. What else could there be similar, apart from flightn
45 EPA001 : That is also a marvelous plane, so much an engineers plane. An icon of its time, and equipped with RR.
46 Pilotaydin : WOW, i knew something was up, i was the PF last night of TK 15 from DKR-GRU,Airbus A330-200 - holy shit did we have some turbulence....we were light s
47 Peteinmiami : My mother in law flew last night Nov-29-22010 on the AA 980 MIA-SSA and after landing in SSA she told us that the turbulence was really bad, so bad th
48 Robffm2 : Thank you very much for this first hand report!
49 ULMFlyer : Cool report, Pilotaydin. I'm curious, was your weather radar painting a similar picture as that of the GOES IR image? Or was the dry air in the ITCZ
50 PPVRA : Wow, unbelievable. I'm glad you and everyone flying that night made it OK.
51 EPA001 : Indeed, many thanks for posting this report.
52 Pilotaydin : anytime, im actually heading out for some grub, when i come back, id be happy to share more details if you are interested, just lemme know what you wa
53 Bond007 : Well, it's semantics! When folks here are using the term 'similar', most are implying that there is some logical link between the 2 incidents ... fro
54 Lightsaber : I hope your airline too preserved the flight recorder data.
55 Spacecadet : The "similarities" you list could apply to about 5,000 different flights every day. Heck, there are about 25 flights similar to JAL 123 using those s
56 RFields5421 : The Mayday call was to communicate with other aircraft in the region, not ATC. The ATC cannot receive calls on the international distress frequency -
57 FrmrCAPCADET : IIRC - weather monitoring is comparably minimal in that part of the Atlantic. It may be that the severity of weather is greater than the satellite pic
58 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Indeed. But it was way down south. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Catarina
59 VC10er : Now on CNN.com: AF A380 bound for JFK turned around and returned to CDG. They are going to have a long night at AF headquarters.
60 Viscount724 : The Connie was built by Lockheed.
61 Post contains links EbbUK : Goodness gracious, not only is it off topic, it is incorrect. The plane was bound for CDG and returned to JFK. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/1..
62 Crosswinds21 : So I'm wondering that if this entire episode really was that huge of a deal (of course, I hope it wasn't), why isn't it being reported in the media ye
63 Airproxx : Once again with this good (or bad..) old aeronautical hypocondria...
64 EbbUK : You have answered your own wonderings very well Crosswinds21. Tis the logical conclusion
65 Swiftski : Contigency states to turn 90degs from track and decend as required if no time to get clearance/clearance cannot be obtained.
66 RFields5421 : 1. Technical - requires explainations by someone who actually knows something - media does not like those stories. 2. No Video - got to have video. I
67 RFields5421 : That happened 3 days ago !!!
68 VC10er : EbbUK Slighty off topic. My point was poor AF as today seems like a diffcult day. Sorry I got the details backwards. I was typing fast as I had just r
69 Post contains links EbbUK : Don't be sorry for not being perfect like me. Only because I am not. Had I have been then I would have started the thread as you say. Except someone
70 RFields5421 : Not complaining about you making the post. Just that the aircraft in question returned to KJFK, got fixed, flew on to Paris and I assume made addition
71 VC10er : I am sorry I got a bit snotty. A short coming of mine. I travel between Europe and Brazil often (and will do many times more) and I find this recent e
72 Aesma : Well, CNN and the French TV just picked up on the A380 incident so I take it as they just don't know yet. I'm sure they will enjoy talking about it t
73 Zeke : The use of MAYDAY is a standard contingency procedure that one would use if you are unable to obtain a clearance from ATC before requiring a descent.
74 DocLightning : What's a PF?
75 Plainplane : I believe that stands for Pilot Flying. The coincidences between the fatal flight and this one are indeed eerily close, thank goodness this one ended
76 Aaron747 : Pilot Flying. As opposed to the pilot not flying, who usually handles radios, callouts, and various other responsibilities.
77 LipeGIG : What a coincidence ! Agree 100%. Also, i just check AF website and no comments are available, and no one passenger made comments ? It become a freque
78 WROORD : Exactly. If the aircraft is equipped with the radar and it shows the flaming red (severe) storm, why didn't they go more to the north before crossing
79 PPVRA : Range/fuel shouldn't be an issue. We don't know that they didn't hit any turbulence. We have an account in this thread of someone who was flying a si
80 FlySSC : You can. But you don't continue for another 7 hours : you divert to the nearest point asap (in that case somewhere on an island in the Atlantic : Azo
81 Pylon101 : So a new day has begun. And we can expect some response/comment from AF and from pax of the flight. At this point we didn't hear or see any evidence b
82 BrouAviation : I didn't say the technical problems were the same as AF0447 suffered. If it did, it most probably crashed? I just said we don't know if there were or
83 AF1624 : Hi Pilotaydin, I do have some questions for you, since you offered to answer them. You say that you've never seen the wings flex that much. How do yo
84 Airbuseric : What are you assuming with this?! Details please about those 'about 25 flights/day'. I think that you don't know were you talk about.
85 Borism : Excuse me, in what respect is Bali safer to travel to? You still have to cross Equator and ITCZ to go to Bali from Northern Hemisphere = expect some
86 Pilotaydin : Good morning to all, as always there are some great posts, and then some terrible bashers But i will do my best to assist with the education of the ge
87 Burkhard : A member of my family flew GRU- FRA yesterday on a TAM 77W. She told that they had turbulances severer than she ever had in her life. Is the collapse
88 FlySSC : Sorry to say that, but : If it's your time to go ... It's your time to go ! whether your are in Rio, in Bali or at home. I'll be flying AF to GIG on
89 Babybus : It's too hard to believe. Same aircraft type, same airline, same place, same problem. Do AF have a specific routing they take that no other airline ta
90 EPA001 : Thanks Pilotaydin for this extensive report. It makes a very interesting reading.
91 BeakerLTN : What a fantastic insight Pilotaydin. Many thanks. I know not specific to this thread, but I have wondered somethign about this. When you declare a May
92 Borism : Callsign is changed by ATC in local FIR, but they declared mayday over emergency VHF 121.5MHz, which is only heard by nearby flights, and not Oceanic
93 Umit : What an excellent write up Pilot Aydin.It was enought to push up my blood pressure , I enjoyed (and mostly thrilled) every word of it . Thanks
94 EZEIZA : it's quite clear from several posts, especially from Pilotaydin, that there was interesting turbulence in the South Atlantic last night. Now, is this
95 Comorin : Pilotaydin, thank you for a thrilling and memorable post indeed! You took us right into the cockpit for a jumpseat view. You pilots are certainly the
96 Pilotaydin : Hi there, well, that's a good question. During the daytime i have several advantages, i can visually see the clouds and the formations far into the h
97 Lightsaber : I've really enjoyed your informative posts. Thank you. You did an excellent job of describing how the pilots avoided 'coffin corner.' Lightsaber
98 RFields5421 : No - this sort of weather is completely ordinary, though a bit more intense than normal - in that area of the world. Unfortunately as pointed out abo
99 FlySSC : If nobody is seriously hurt during the turbulence and if there is no technical problem with the aircraft why would they divert ? After they passed sa
100 Zeke : The reason for the mayday would have been for a change of level without ATC clearance, not because of a problem with the aircraft. The mayday is used
101 BrouAviation : First let me thank you for your very informative posts, but isn't this the case with every jetliner and not airbus specifically? Lower flying creates
102 EZEIZA : Thanks precisely my doubt; is it possible that the AF actually encountered what you did on your flight, but decided to take different action because
103 FoxBravo : Pilotaydin, just wanted to add my thanks for your very interesting and informative posts on this and other topics. I am sure this was much appreciated
104 Post contains links Jreuschl : http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...vol-af445-rio-paris-cdg-du-291109/ Press release
105 AF1624 : Thank you Pilotaydin for answering my questions. What a fantastic insight. This may have been blown out of proportion, but since we don't know what ha
106 JBirdAV8r : They're the same tracks--he meant to say they are "designated" daily.
107 RicardoFG : Can someone point out what the difference is between "PAN PAN", "Emergency" and a MAYDAY" call, and examples. I had always understood that a mayday ca
108 Jayeshrulz : i'm sorry this may be a silly question, but i'm new to this. How is the mayday call made, and to whom..to the centre or whom?? And how did TAM receiv
109 Post contains links Lightsaber : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan Mayday is supposed to only be used when one is asking for rescue services to drop everything else and come to yo
110 Woof : I do like this sentence: "Following an internal investigation, Air France can confirm that flight AF445 left Rio on 29 November at 21:20 (local time)
111 Burkhard : When a pilot decides to leave the level and go down to 280, every other aircraft nearby should be aware of this and take action if appropriate me thi
112 Bralo20 : Generally a "Pan Pan" is used for an emergency without immediate (life threatning) danger to passengers, crew or aircraft. Mayday however is a distre
113 Post contains links FCA767 : This website shows most messages, it depends on all the servers that are online though...but the plane went to bombay afterwards http://www.acarsd.or
114 Aesma : It's a bad English translation. In the French version the sentence says : Which translates into : No odd impression that AF had to make an investigat
115 RFields5421 : This gets pretty detailed to explain the situation. ------------------------- Most normal aircraft operations use VHF radios for communications on ai
116 Zeke : That is not true. An emergency change of level should be a mayday call, the reason being you do not have a clearance, and the possibility of running
117 Aesma : Thanks for the details and for the confirmation of the strangeness of this. But I don't know how busy is this route.
118 Post contains links LongHaul67 : Now also reported by CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu...ir.france.investigation/index.html
119 FlySSC : The BEA said the November flight was an Airbus A330-203, the same model involved in the June crash, but Air France said the November incident involve
120 RJpieces : Can't they tell this from TCAS?
121 RFields5421 : The TCAS may or may not display aircraft in the area - only if they have an operating transponder. And there is no interference from storms in the ar
122 Viscount724 : I've seen quite a few such situations on Transatlantic routes included in the Transport Canada daily incident reports. A few examples below from this
123 Lightsaber : Please see below. I believe you are correct. Very scary scenario and possible. Contrary to my training then. Please make sure you inform the FAA and
124 OzGlobal : In terms of the use of the terms Pan Pan Pan and Mayday, these are French words from the early years of aviation, which have been picked up as univers
125 RJpieces : Aside from a storm interfering with it, it should have been working no?
126 Zeke : Can I ask what training you actually have ? and what licence you have ? and what sort of flying experience you have ? The contingency procedures I po
127 Lightsaber : The pilot had the choice of MAYDAY or PAN PAN. The former spins up quite a few resources. I'm half an hour of training away from being an Incident Co
128 RFields5421 : TCAS requires that two different aircraft by operated correctly and their equipment be working correctly. That is if conditions are perfect. If an ai
129 Post contains images Zeke : It was done on 121.5 whilst oceanic at night...the only stations hearing are other aircraft which is exactly why I would go for the mayday option, it
130 Lightsaber : Zeke, I made no such Monday morning quarter back question of the decision. Please re-read my posts. In every one I said I feel MAYDAY was the appropr
131 Affirmative : Ok, now we know that controllers and pilots not always come to terms with things. Thank god that we're professional once at our respective workplaces
132 Zeke : The pilot initial descent was to FL360, not FL280. FL380 was just above optimum when they encountered turbulence, if it was associated with a tempera
133 Lightsaber : That we can agree on. Note: I'm not in traditional ATC. Just as with the airlines, they are a service we use. I'm in prototype flight testing where w
134 Post contains links Aesma : Contrary to what I initially thought, the story took a long time to pick-up, I think it was on the news only one week later or so. It'll maybe gain mo
135 Post contains links Longhaul67 : Dunno whether this is old news, but according to this article investigators say AF447 hit the water belly first, essentially intact. Also, the oxygen
136 Varig md-11 : Aesma Thanks for drawing the attention on this article Simply disgusting the double neglect concerning the data. I can't help thinking it's not neglec
137 Pellegrine : I don't know about all this radio nonsense. But I think it's sad in this day and age, that any common person can buy either an Iridium satphone or an
138 JoeCanuck :
139 Zeke : One thing is having a SAT phone, the other is having the right number, and also knowing exactly where all the other traffic is. We have SAT phones th
140 Bond007 : Which this aircraft was most likely equipped with! I guess it didn't help in this case. Weel, that's no different than saying you don't know the VHF
141 Zeke : The aircraft was equipped with CPDLC/ADS-B/ADS-C, but the controllers/ATC were not, this is very common, the equipment on the aircraft will not work
142 LTBEWR : Perhaps there is a need for some kind of 'panic button' a pilot/co could hit if there is a serious problem that could send a basic text message as to
143 LHRSpotter : You mean AF447.
144 Tom355uk : I'm sure you actually meant AF447.... surely what you describe in your post is actually just what ACARS does - albeit with some form of manual overri
145 Tdscanuck : If they couldn't reach any other aircraft via VHF, doesn't that mean there was nobody out there to alert who was close enough to care about an altitu
146 Zeke : Only if you can logon to ATC. The CPDLC datalink emergency function does not work unless you have established a datalink connection with ATC. No data
147 Bond007 : Well, my point is that this technology didn't help them, and if it was all fully functionally in that airspace, it would be using satellite technolog
148 Zeke : Datalink can go over any comms link, VHF/HF/SAT. Not sure why you keep mentioning Gander, this was in Brazilian airspace, Gander have nothing to do w
149 Bond007 : Right, but I said in this case. Lack of VHF and ATC coverage was one of the factors here. I'm using Gander an as example of an Oceanic control area t
150 RFields5421 : We know from many flights around the world and from the AF447 data that satellite transmissions are not cast in stone solid reliable all the time. AF
151 Tdscanuck : I was thinking ACARS datalink over SATCOM. That's totally independent of ATC login. Satellite uplink is point-to-point. The dish on the airplane is h
152 JoeCanuck : The dish on an airplane may be highly directional, (which seems odd since airplanes move quite a bit and many airlines plan on offering live internet)
153 Zeke : The messages need to be routed to a recipient on the SITA/ARINC ACARS networks. Without being logged on, the messages do not know how to be addresses
154 Tdscanuck : Right, because the thing you're broadcasting *too* has an absolutely enourmous antenna and extremely sensitive (and expensive) electronics to pick up
155 JoeCanuck : It shouldn't be to difficult to set up an emergency system to be set up bases on this. GPS position could be used to gauge which authorities should r
156 JoeCanuck : Right...that's why it's called a satellite phone. I never suggested that sat phones communicate with other phones directly. The satellite is merely a
157 Tdscanuck : You could do that via ACARS right now using existing technology...you'd just have to standardize the routing. That happens all the time right now...v
158 JoeCanuck : I meant transmitted as a backup to the black boxes. It's a given that the boxes themselves continually record...until, say, the plane breaks up in fl
159 Bond007 : Right, but we're still describing how the current systems work. My point is that we can make Satellite communications whatever we want it to be, with
160 RFields5421 : Not only over simplify, but totally not applicable to the discussion. Those systems are one way only - from the satellite to the ground receiver. The
161 Zeke : The ATC menus which includes the Emergency menu only works when you have established an ATC connection. What you are suggesting is like sending a SMS
162 Bond007 : Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that Well, that's exactly what Satellite internet companies are providing ... including Voip equivalent servi
163 RFields5421 : There are two separate satellite internet systems. The most common sold in the US and several other nations uses a landline relay for the 'uplink' po
164 Tdscanuck : That's not a communications capability problem...the plane didn't transmit an accurate final position, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have. If you
165 JoeCanuck : but not as large as it is now.
166 RFields5421 : For AF 447 - the final position report from the ACARS messages appears to have been very accurate - and less than four minutes before all communicatio
167 Post contains images Bond007 : OK, I'm aware of exactly what systems are available, their speeds, and how they 'may' be used for aircraft communications. Let's just agree that two
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