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How Long The Love For The MD-11?  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8988 times:
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After reading the thread about the potential demise of the A380F and the potential rise of the 747-800F....it made me think where do all the MD-11's fit in? Are they expected to be scraped soon- or is there still LOVE? I think LH Cargo still loves them! Many people have said that the MD-11 made a better cargo plane than a pax- I don't know if that's true. Are there any left to be converted? If Boeing would make them would customers line up?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5343 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8982 times:

There are a number left in passenger config.

Boeing would never make them again, and there would be zero orders at what would have to be the price of a new build aircraft. They make good freighters (most of which sit a lot) in part because you get a lot of plane and capability for a now-affordable price. In other words, they now trade at lease prices substantially below what even well-capitalized carriers like DL were paying for them as new-build a/c.


User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8955 times:
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Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
I think LH Cargo still loves them!

Count here Aeroflot Cargo, World Airways, Cargoitalia and Ethiopian...



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8930 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
There are a number left in passenger config.

I believe the only MD-11 PAX operators left are KL and WO. You could theoretically count MP in as well, because their MD-11s can be converted from freighter to PAX configuration (plus there was a proposal recently to do so IIRC), but I guess that ain't gonna happen when MP become a cargo only airline and takes over for KL Cargo.


User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1715 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8916 times:



Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
After reading the thread about the potential demise of the A380F and the potential rise of the 747-800F....it made me think where do all the MD-11's fit in?

The A380F and 748F aren't really competing with the MD11F, the 777F is it's main rival. But that's a pretty expensive plane, so I expect the MD11's to be seen in cargo operations for quite while still  Smile

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
They make good freighters (most of which sit a lot) in part because you get a lot of plane and capability for a now-affordable price.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 1):
There are a number left in passenger config.

The AY birds' days are numbered, IIRC correctly the last one will leave passenger service in a few months. KL is the lasrt airline to have pax MD11's, and will operate them till 2015. Wouldn't be surprised to see these converted to freighters as well.

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
I think LH Cargo still loves them!

Count here Aeroflot Cargo, World Airways, Cargoitalia and Ethiopian...

And don't forget Martinair!



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7002 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8770 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
I believe the only MD-11 PAX operators left are KL and WO.

Good grief. I can remember the programme being launched and the first planes entering service. My wife, then working for Swissair, was told by KLM, "You're so lucky. We can't wait for our MD-11s to arrive."

SR had a love-hate relationship with them but, as a passenger (often non-rev), I was won over. I loved the 2-4-3 seating in Y. And they took me to (and brought me home from) destinations on every continent.

My last ever flight on Swissair was on an MD-11 (DAR-NBO-ZRH).

Where's the LOVE? Well, I have a lot of affection for the old girl and will miss her.

(Always was bloody ugly, mind...!)


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8754 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 5):
Always was bloody ugly, mind...!)

That's in the eye of the beholder!! I love the looks of the MD-11.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Are they expected to be scraped soon

Not sure if they will be scraped, but for sure a lot of them won't be scrapped for a while  Big grin

Seriously, they are still very much liked as cargo aircraft, as mentioned in several posts. The direct replacement is the 772F, but that one is very expensive. The a332F has a lower capacity, more of a DC10F replacement. I expect the MD11 to stay in the (cargo) fleets for a while still...



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8440 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
I believe the only MD-11 PAX operators left are KL and WO.

Don't forget Finnair!!

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8379 times:
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I must admit I love them too.
After VARIG had fixed up the interiors (a few years before going under) the one row of first class had a great new bed seat, elegant colors (navy blue and sable) and food. The one row in some ways made for the most exclusive F even vs today's suites. I used to recline, look out at the giant winglet and flashing light. So beautiful I didn't even need to watch a movie!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8355 times:



Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 7):
Don't forget Finnair!!

The last MD-11 leaves AY's fleet in February, it seems.
Before that AY MD-11 will be seen on HEL-BKK and HEL-DEL routes, plus in short haul charter service on HEL-AGP at least.


User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1453 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8295 times:

I had the opportunity to fly my first MD-11 aircraft last week on KLM between AMS and SFO. I must admit that I was slightly nervous during take off (given the history of the aircraft) but it wore off soon and I thoroughly enjoyed my experience. The 11 hour flight was very comfortable and very quiet too. The fact that almost all middle seats were empty did help of course. And thanks to the tiny PTVs, the flight did not feel at all like 11 hours...


Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8213 times:

The MD-11 is in my top three favorite planes. One of the (and arguably only) benefits of spotting in Baltimore is seeing the World MD-11s and DC-10s that come in almost daily. Of course we also get those ATI DC-8s daily as well.  Big grin


RUSH
User currently offlineS4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8195 times:



Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
Count here Aeroflot Cargo, World Airways, Cargoitalia and Ethiopian...

I would add Centurion to that list, and I can see Arrow Cargo replacing their DC-10's in the future.


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8062 times:

How long we´ll see many MD11(F)s still around will depend on its future accident rate. If there´ll be two or even three write-offs/accidents each year (like this year) that´ll surely make the operator´s think and will accelerate its retirement. From all modern airliners lareg and small (post 80s built) the MD-11 has the worst record, by far.
But, as said before, what is there to replace them? For many MD-11F operators the 777F is too expensive, and its long range not needed. And used 744Fs are quite a step upwards in capability.


User currently offlineDRAIGONAIR From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 708 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8027 times:

Indeed great airplane. I remember flying the MD11 of China Eastern to Kai Tak! Awesome, which i wont forget quickly! Especially the landing in Kai Tak with an MD11, we sort of bounced during touchdown!

Nick



cheers
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7971 times:



Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Are they expected to be scraped soon- or is there still LOVE?

As long as companies can turn a profit flying them there will be some love.

As far as the apparent lack of popularity as a pax aircraft, that was pretty much all on McDonnell Douglas. Turns out that airlines really don't like it when new planes can't meet the promised performance.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7856 times:
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How many MD-11's were lost this year and flying with whom?
The image of the MD-11 is forever tarnished by the horrible Swissair crash. While I know I'm more likely to die walking home in New York City, there wasn't one time I didn't think of that crash when I boarded an MD-11. Still love 'em!!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7788 times:
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Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 7):
Don't forget Finnair!!

Finnair not only is one of the last operators of the MD-11 in PAX version but it also holds the distinction of being the first airline to put the MD-11 in service in 1990 when the aircraft was all new. This being said, AY will be the airline that will have operated the MD-11 in PAX version the longest: two decades.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 17):
How many MD-11's were lost this year and flying with whom?

Two: one of Fed Ex in Japan a few months ago and one in China just recently, both were freighters.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6831 times:



Quoting VC10er (Reply 17):
The image of the MD-11 is forever tarnished by the horrible Swissair crash.

The positive outcome of the crash was that what counted a lot towards the deadly outcome, the flammable insulation blankets, were removed not only from the MD-11s but many other a/c of the era as well.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6606 times:
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First of all, not bad for a plane built between 1990 and 2001.  spin 

The 777F is a more capable freighter and is on the high end for performance and purchase price. I see the real competition when 77EBCF's enter service. The other competitor is the A330F.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 18):
This being said, AY will be the airline that will have operated the MD-11 in PAX version the longest: two decades.

An impressive milestone.

The question is, are any of the original frames still in passenger service? If they've served 20 years as pax haulers, will they be converted or scrapped?

Watching the DC-10's leaving FX service (slowly), I think we're going to witness the MD-11's fadding to secondary fleets. That sadly will increase their accident rate.  Sad

Quoting PM (Reply 5):
Where's the LOVE? Well, I have a lot of affection for the old girl and will miss her.

(Always was bloody ugly, mind...!)

Are you hinting she is a six pack 'beauty queen?'  spit 

I'm amazed how much the LANDING weight was increased on these planes over their life.

I wonder if that will be possible once the early A380's become freighters?  duck 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 18):
AY will be the airline that will have operated the MD-11 in PAX version the longest: two decades.

I think that will be KLM. I don't believe KL plans to retire their 10 MD-11s until at least 2015 which would total 22 years of MD-11 service. KL recently replaced all the seats on their MD-11s (including PTVs in Y class which previously didn't exist) and they wouldn't do thqat if they weren't planning to keep them for a few more years.

[Edited 2009-12-01 17:08:37]

[Edited 2009-12-01 17:21:14]

User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6467 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
The question is, are any of the original frames still in passenger service?

Yes the first one to fly commercially, with Finnair in 1990 (OH-LGA, 48449/455)) is now N270WA with World.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5343 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6315 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
As far as the apparent lack of popularity as a pax aircraft, that was pretty much all on McDonnell Douglas.

And acceptance by passengers and regulatory authorities of transoceanic and transpolar twin operations. One or two lost airframes in a certain period and the 777 would have been dead and the MD11 a big winner. But things turned out well for twins, and the 3-holer was out the door.


User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

This is a fine plane that I flew in both coach and business class from Zurich to Tehran with Swiss. I was very impressed by its powerful take off run in a hot, high and dry airport at THR. It was really a fine piece of engineering. Sadly, it is apparently a bit unstable at low speeds and somewhat difficult to land. This was apparent when one crashed at Narita on landing within the past year.

Saudi Cargo flies them too and I believe will continue to do so for a long while. I think it is relatively fuel efficient given that it has three engines. Probably better than a A340 but not as good as a 767 or A330 for PAX usage. I suspect it will be around for a while as a cargo hauler. For the money, it's a great choice.

Perhaps the USAF will convert some into the KC-10 tankers (DC-10 based)? Lord knows they need em and the KC-X bid is way overdue.  Confused


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5935 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
And acceptance by passengers and regulatory authorities of transoceanic and transpolar twin operations.

While this is probably true to some extent, ETOPS 180 was already approved by 1988 and operated by 1989, so it wasn't as if McDonnell Douglas got totally blindsided by the emergence of twins on longer routes. And really, ETOPS had become so commonplace by the mid 90s when the 777 appeared that it was given 180 certification right off the bat without the 1 year evaluation.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
One or two lost airframes in a certain period and the 777 would have been dead and the MD11 a big winner.

Or the A340 would have been a big winner.

I think that the MD-11 failed in the passenger marketplace for two major reasons:

1. It came out too late. Ideas for a more advanced DC-10 started in the mid 1970s and had McDonnell Douglas gone further with either the DC-10 Super Sixty in the late 70s or the MD-100 in the early 80s and had a plane (with 757/767 generation technology) flying by the mid 1980s they would have probably seen much more success.

2. It just did not meet the performance expectations that were set for it which was, understandably, a major issue for airlines. By the time the MD-11 was finally up to spec it was just too late. The 777 had appeared and was showing just how good of a performer it was and the Boeing merger was the final nail in the coffin. It is kind of a sad story, and it is hard to not think about what could have been.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 LTBEWR : I think there will be 2 factors that will cause the love for MD-11's to end. Oil prices and parts availablity.
26 Lightsaber : The first will push them to lower duty (fewer flights per year) freight duty. The later is safe considering the number in service and the engines are
27 LACA773 : I too enjoyed flying on the M11s with DL, AA, & SR. I flew DL's LAX-ATL and another time ATL-Europe. AA SJC-BOS-SJC. On SR it was LAX-ZRH-LAX. A truly
28 SeaBosDca : I could never reconcile myself to the looks of the MD-11. Wings and tail look (and are) too small for that enormous fuselage. The #2 engine looks like
29 Wjcandee : Only by the FAA. The JAA didn't buy into this, and so the rules are different for European carriers, who don't just get to jump to 180-minute ETOPS w
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