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9W Check Pilot Yanks Breaker During Landing  
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15999 times:

Was going to post this myself, but saw Tharanga's post buried in Indian Civ Av. Thought this link deserved a wider pilot audience - Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

The article points out that a 9W check pilot reaches from the jump seat and yanks a circuit breaker to 'test' the PF's reaction on flying the aircraft during landing. This is on a commercial flight with plenty of souls on board. Is this normal practice?

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 64):
check pilot messes with aircraft in flight.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...Jet-flight/articleshow/5290059.cms

I'd like to see this from an aviation news source. Sounds crazy from this article, though.


[Edited 2009-12-02 06:17:03 by comorin]

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvroarrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15877 times:

Not the worst thing to test somebody for, but I agree that it was the wrong place to do it. They invented simulators for a reason.


Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15863 times:

Which circuitbreaker was it?

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 15745 times:

I thought it was now "common knowledge" what can happen if you pull a circuit breaker:

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User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15394 times:

Is there any precedent for a check pilot to actually cause a challenging situation on a real flight?

User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15065 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 5):
Is there any precedent for a check pilot to actually cause a challenging situation on a real flight?

I don't think so. Way too many aircraft were crashed before simulators doing stuff like this.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14979 times:

Seeing how the pilot was a Check Pilot, my bets are that it was an Expat. IMO he took this way to far and because of his status as an Expat, my bets is he is already gone.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3098 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14831 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 8):
Seeing how the pilot was a Check Pilot, my bets are that it was an Expat. IMO he took this way to far and because of his status as an Expat, my bets is he is already gone.

Was it a 737 or a 777....? Or maybe an A330....? Where was this plane flying from to BOM...?


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14799 times:



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Was it a 737 or a 777....?

that flight is usually a 739, I think. what it was that day, i can't say.


User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1146 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14402 times:

Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).



Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14309 times:
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Jet Airways said, that the airplane never left any of the operational limits and actually never exceeded acceptable parameters. The crew did not receive any EGPWS warning or announciations after the circuit breaker was tripped. The observer's check pilot status has been suspended pending the investigation results.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
Was it a 737 or a 777....? Or maybe an A330


VT-JGC is a 739.


User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2791 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12863 times:

Interesting tactic... At my airline, I've never witnessed (and I could never imagine) a check airman pulling a CB on a revenue flight. In the flight simulator, instructors give us all kinds of problems, but they don't need to pull CBs to create problems - they have computers that can wreak havoc!

User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12674 times:

i know this is silly but i'm a newbie here..

what is a circut breaker and where is it located?
thanks alot!!



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12348 times:



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker and where is it located?

A circut breaker is essencially a fuse that when current exceeds a certain perameter it disconnects the component that it is protecting. The difference between a circut breaker and fuse is that a circut breaker can usually be reset where as a fuse must be replaced. In an airliner there are hundreds of circut breakers located in the cockpit that protect every electrical system on the airplane from overload. When one is "pulled" it disconnects the component rendering it useless. It is something that was common place for a while in FAA Checkrides for pilot licensing but this has since changed and I beleve (at least in the US) Check Airmen are not allowed to pull circut breakers inflight, with the exception of circut breakers that are pulled for a proceedure. For example in the Beech Bonanza we have to pull the Landing Gear Motor CB when we manually extend the gear. Airliners don't typically have that proceedure as the systems are integrated better.

Depending on what was pulled in this case I would say this either falls into the category of "bad idea" or "willfully endangering passengers". Most likely it was just a bad idea that shouldn't be repeated.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineBobbyskipper From Germany, joined Jun 2008, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11559 times:

I guess some airlines have a different philosophy regarding line training. But personally I think pulling CB's for training purposes on any flight, other than in a simulator, should be avoided.

There have been bad accidents caused by pulling CB's! Mostly because more systems or sub-systems than stated at the CB panel are affected. A simulator is the best place for abnormal training. Why do it on a real flight with passengers on board?


User currently offlineCaboclo From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10783 times:

As in most situations, it's probably best not to make generalizations; ie "Thou shalt never pull a CB." Do you want to live in a world where your every action is regulated, or would you prefer to rely on common sense? Yes, I know common sense is sadly lacking in many people, but many of those people are the ones who will be writing the legislation governing your every action. There is no perfection, no complete safety in this life. Ok, enough politics. In real life, pulling CBs in flight is quite common, at least in older and/or simpler planes. It just requires good judgment on the part of the check airman as to which system to fail at which time. The check airman must have a good knowledge of aircraft systems, in order to keep from inadvertently failing a secondary system, and yes, that is a much greater consideration on modern airliners, due to their increased complexity and integration. Simulators are a wonderful training tool, but there is still a place for some real-life training.

The news article says the CB in question was the #1 Radar Altimeter, which subsequently knocked out the auto-pilot and flight director, causing an increased rate of descent. An unnamed official is quoted as saying "A pilot can do the job of an autopilot; he can land, albeit with difficulty, without the help of a flight director." But that's a whole different rant; don't get me started.

[Edited 2009-12-02 14:45:34]


Freight dogs have more fun
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8959 times:
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Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

They come in all kinds of sizes and types, but they all do the same thing. They protect an electrical circuit from overload.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8468 times:



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

Circuit breakers are designed so that they can be manually pulled. This is so that, if, for example, an electrical fire starts, and you know (via the QRH) which breaker(s) feed the circuit, you can stop it by pulling the breaker.

Circuit breakers aren't 100% foolproof  Wink I had an electrical fire in an outdoor breaker panel at my house, once, caused by a short circuit in an underground direct burial electrical cable. I stopped it with a fire extinguisher and by turning off the breaker to the breaker panel  Smile (located in the garage...)



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8140 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
Didn't think you could pull breakers willy-nilly especially during flight ...

Circuit breakers are designed so that they can be manually pulled. This is so that, if, for example, an electrical fire starts, and you know (via the QRH) which breaker(s) feed the circuit, you can stop it by pulling the breaker.

Appreciate the explanation, thanks. Did this act put the flight at risk?

The Times of India reports that the check pilot has lost his check status and the two pilots have been derostered pending investigation. My guess is that the Check Pilot was probably an old Air Force type used to aggressive training techniques! As long as he didn't whack the PF on the back of the head I'm OK.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7865 times:



Quoting YWG (Reply 11):
Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).

I'm not sure what airline you are associated with, but I don't wish to ever find myself on it. For a Check Pilot/Airman to intentionally cause a degradation of aircraft systems to test a pilot on a line check in a revenue flight is beyond reprehensible. A check pilots job is to monitor the activities of the flight crew to ensure safe operation and standard procedure during normal operations or the handling of non-normal operations should one occur. To create an abnormal situation is akin to disruption of a flight crew in their duties. The only time the check pilot should really say anything or do anything other than writing down items to be debriefed is if the crew puts the aircraft into jeopardy. Otherwise, they are there to observe. If this article is correct, the check pilot should be fired and be looked at by the regulating authority.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineSimpilot459 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

I had a flight instructor who would pull circuit breakers all the time. It's really good training when I didn't see him doing it. While I agree it want the best idea in this case, it wasn't the near disaster they make it out to be. As crazy as it sounds, the plane will still actually fly without the autopilot, FD, or GPWS.


Take off: Optional Landing: Mandatory
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

This discussion has many contradictory opinions in it, from people purporting to know what they're talking about. Perhaps check rides are a little different outside the commercial setting?

Quoting 727forever (Reply 22):
For a Check Pilot/Airman to intentionally cause a degradation of aircraft systems to test a pilot on a line check in a revenue flight is beyond reprehensible. A check pilots job is to monitor the activities of the flight crew to ensure safe operation and standard procedure during normal operations or the handling of non-normal operations should one occur.

This reply sounds sensible to me, and is consistent with this blogger, for whatever that's worth.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/200...f-aviation-incidents-in-india.html


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7523 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 24):
This reply sounds sensible to me, and is consistent with this blogger, for whatever that's worth.

I was a check airman at a previous airline. I also did quite a bit of training work for our pilot union. I'm not educated on other countries, but in the USA this type of activity is in contridiction to order 8400.10 The Inspectors Handbook which governs the activities of FAA Inspectors, Designated Examiners, and Check Airmen.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7222 times:



Quoting Jayeshrulz (Reply 15):
what is a circut breaker and where is it located?
thanks alot!!


Located in series with the circuit,trips or breaks the contact in case of excessive current flow past the point.This prevents a fire due a short circuit.when tripped the white surface is exposed.

On the B739,the CB panels are located on the aft wall of the flight deck behind the Capt & F/O seats.named P18 & p6 respectively.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCrjfixer From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7003 times:



Quoting YWG (Reply 11):
Check Captains/Pilots pull CB's all the time. Half the time the pilot wont notice something is wrong until they need that function.

It happens on revenue flights, but to not-so-important instruments or systems. Ie) Pulling the nav radio CB's during an ILS approach (probably not a good idea).

On the ground yes...No cb can be manually pulled in flight (At least in the US and i would suspect its the same everywhere else)

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
No CB can be manually pulled during flight,On ground,CB is pulled only for Maintenance purposes.

^^ this is the correct statement


25 Mir : Pulling breakers in little training aircraft is a lot different than doing it in an airliner with paying passengers onboard. This check guy apparentl
26 Flyboyseven : Just to clarify this statement, the circuit breakers CAN physicly be pulled during flight, but cannot be in practice because of regulations. Is that
27 Mir : Correct (well, mostly correct, since we've already seen an aircraft - the Falcon 7X - with electronic circuit breakers, which can't be manually pulle
28 ThirtyEcho : Back in the day, check pilots used to really fail systems in flight tests but never on passenger carrying flights. I can remember the FAA inspector wh
29 Post contains links N49WA : http://www.transoceanairlines.com/sisto.html "...The American Airlines DC-4 aircraft was on a flight from Dallas to Los Angeles, flying at night, at
30 LHR380 : They sure are very easy to pull. Remember the Fed Ex incident in the US where a worker went nuts and tried to kill everyone? 3 or 4 times prior to tak
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