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FL Agents, Rampers, Res Reject IAM  
User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3276 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4310 times:

For the 5th time since 1998 AirTran employees have rejected an effort to unionize their workgroups. Looks like the IAM could even get 35% to sign cards to force an election....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AirTra...ct-prnews-2296841709.html?x=0&.v=1

 thumbsup   thumbsup   thumbsup   thumbsup   thumbsup 

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

They see how useless the IAM and all the other unions are at the other airlines and they want no part of it. It will only be a matter of time before the unionized airlines start giving the union the boot.

They do nothing but cause trouble for everyone.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineYVPHX From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Except in the case of airlines (coughMesacough) where a Union would actually improve the slave labor working conditions. Horrible health benefits (if you can afford them), 0.5 average ramper per plane, equipment that cannot be repair due to sever budget constraints, equipment that just doesn't work, 80%+ attrition rate...and several other issues that most likely will never be resolved while our Savior J.O is in the Captains seat.

User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 515 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4140 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 1):
They see how useless the IAM and all the other unions are at the other airlines and they want no part of it. It will only be a matter of time before the unionized airlines start giving the union the boot.

They do nothing but cause trouble for everyone.

If the don't want to be represented, that's there choice. Some how though I doubt you will ever see all of the unions gone. No, they don't cause trouble for everyone. There are plenty unionized operations out there where there is not a whole lot of problems.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

There are places with the need. It would appear the AirTran folks are not in need. Most of Delta and JetBlue as well.


I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDLflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 1):
They see how useless the IAM and all the other unions are at the other airlines and they want no part of it. It will only be a matter of time before the unionized airlines start giving the union the boot.

They do nothing but cause trouble for everyone.

I can't beleive im saying this but Great job FL! I wish some of our NW employees would see the same light.

[Edited 2009-12-03 06:15:46]

[Edited 2009-12-03 06:16:19]

User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

I work for AirTran, and I am VERY happy with union representation.

User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3739 times:



Quoting YVPHX (Reply 2):
Except in the case of airlines (coughMesacough) where a Union would actually improve the slave labor working conditions. Horrible health benefits (if you can afford them), 0.5 average ramper per plane, equipment that cannot be repair due to sever budget constraints, equipment that just doesn't work, 80%+ attrition rate...and several other issues that most likely will never be resolved while our Savior J.O is in the Captains seat.

A union will not help you on some items like - the ramper/plane, 80% attrition, etc. The root cause are the legacy carriers trying to gain EVERY pax revenue while beating down the price of the partner carriers because John and Jane Travel is controlling pricing due to too much capacity. Another angel is Legacy carriers allowed their cost to get out of control in negotiating labor contracts when times were good not anticipating the downturn and worse locking themselves into "no furlough clauses". Don't worry, the ebbtide is reshaping the competitive landscape. The ATA projected there are 62% fewer travelers this holiday season compared to 2000, limited capital availability to finance operations (payroll, fuel, etc). Multiple failures are on the horizon.
I hear you and do not doubt your statement on JO. IMO Jonathan is such a unique character, I think he would shut your airline down either refusing to negotiate or poison pill-ing the effect. I could see a union inspiring him to be more of a villain/renegade than possibly imagined. He is uncontainable in his World hence why he is struggling to gain financing muchless maintain the revenue on the books. He has performed such a "crap job" at building wealth into the organization he has reversed the effect and acheived turning Chicken Salad into Chicken $h!t. Incredible!!

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 3):
There are plenty unionized operations out there where there is not a whole lot of problems.

Absolutely. The success can be attributed to sensible leadership on both sides of the table!! Unions get pissed at management styles similar to the aforementioned comment and management gets pissed at unions whose leaders become pawns of the national leaderships. This is why you see many success stories from in-house organizations.
It cracks me up when I read, ABC airline says their counter part at XYZ has this agreement and we want the same clause. OK?!?! XYZ airline is your competitor which does not, necessarily, mean it will fit into your company business plan to acheive its goals.

I could have a greater understanding and respect for this rationale if a 737-800 Captain at AA resigned to be hired at CO as 737-800 Captain, but that is not how organized labor has structured their agreements or dictated to the industry. I am dumbfounded when I hear our brothers at XYZ airline need our help when the industry is littered with failed airlines. Trust me if XYZ could put ABC out of business they would because both companies are trying hard to kill one another.

Union members had better perform a periodic "pulse check" on their national leadership and pay close attention how they're directing your fellow members and I am not talking about fellow members at your competitors. During economic hardship survival better be EVERYONES goal and there no room for we can all survive together because you cannot.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3692 times:



Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 3):
If the don't want to be represented, that's there choice. Some how though I doubt you will ever see all of the unions gone. No, they don't cause trouble for everyone. There are plenty unionized operations out there where there is not a whole lot of problems.

Can you name the American carriers that have no union problems?

Quoting YVPHX (Reply 2):
Except in the case of airlines (coughMesacough) where a Union would actually improve the slave labor working conditions. Horrible health benefits (if you can afford them), 0.5 average ramper per plane, equipment that cannot be repair due to sever budget constraints, equipment that just doesn't work, 80%+ attrition rate...and several other issues that most likely will never be resolved while our Savior J.O is in the Captains seat.

What exactly do you think a union would do for you?



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

Good for FL. I feel a connection with them since I almost worked for them. I've been in a union before and am very happily no longer in a union. It is so much nicer to have things decided based on my performance and not on union regulations and seniority.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineUSAir1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 71 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
Can you name the American carriers that have no union problems?

Southwest. They are the most heavily unionized, highly paid and consistently profitable airline out there.

On a side note... it should be noted that currently under the RLA (Railway Labor Act), every vote that is not cast automatically represents a no vote. So if 35% voted yes that is pretty impressive. What FL fails to tell you is how many of their employees did not vote, which automatically indicates a NO vote. If there are 1000 eligible voters, and only 500 people vote, with say 90% of them saying yes, the union would still lose the election because, even though there were 10% actual no votes, the other 50% that didn't vote would actually count as no votes. Try passing a proposition in any state with rules like that, it would never happen because voter turn out is never that high.

I work for an airline that as a union on the property. I have also worked at an airline that did not, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the working conditions are much better than at the non unionized carrier, even though we still have our own host of problems. I cannot tell you how many safety problems have been corrected as a direct result of the union being proactive and insuring that we having the proper equipment to do our job. In addition, it is nice to have a defined set of work rules for everybody, since again, at the non-union airline, the rules changed with the wind depending on who you were.

For those on here that attack labor constantly, keep in mind that more employees at WN are represented by labor unions as a percentage than any other carrier, and they do very well for themselves. Their employees are happy, and their company does very well. Stop blaming unions for problems at the airlines.

[Edited 2009-12-03 17:26:37]

User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3276 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3470 times:



Quoting USAir1 (Reply 10):
Southwest.

Actually, they've had union problems, but the company doesn't have the stones to stand up to the workgroups because of the culture change it represents. The pilot group was already the highest paid 737 pilots in the world before they rejected the first TA. The company rolled over. They ran into problems on the last FA contract to, and had to bring Herb back to settle the talks. WN is going to have to face the labor cost issue soon. And labor is going to have to face facts that they are very well compensated, and may have to settle for smaller raises, if not productivity increases. Today's WN is looking a lot like DL just before Ron Allen unleashed Leadership 7.5.....


User currently offlineUSAir1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 71 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3462 times:



Quoting Toltommy (Reply 11):
ctually, they've had union problems,

Is it the unions fault for trying to get as much as it can for it's members? Unions primary responsibility is to ensure its members have job security and can live comfortably.


User currently offlineAviatortj From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Sure the company is happy since they can't even get a contract with their pilots. Who would want to worry about another workgroup they'd have to give raises to and protect?

User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3355 times:



Quoting USAir1 (Reply 10):
Southwest. They are the most heavily unionized, highly paid and consistently profitable airline out there.

LMAO!!!!!!
Are you kidding! Southwest has a HUGE problem right now and if they want to continue to fly they have to deal with their labor cost issues. The last 3 contracts have been VERY hostile and labor is still out of control. With WN going so hard in these new larger markets they MUST fix this labor cost issue or they will not be looking good in a few years.

AND THEY KNOW THIS........

Quoting USAir1 (Reply 12):
Is it the unions fault for trying to get as much as it can for it's members? Unions primary responsibility is to ensure its members have job security and can live comfortably.

LOL, same union line!

They can try all they want but management can only give so much. It is every public companies responsibility to return a profit to the shareholder and if the union is going to stop that then they MUST be taken down. NW showed us a lot and I hope that attitude continues at DL and all airlines.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineUSAir1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 71 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3320 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 14):
LOL, same union line!

You are right! How dumb could I be? Why should a ramp agent or customer service agent make more than 12 dollars an hour they are just expendable pieces of garbage, mechanics shouldnt be worth more than 20, and got those pilots like Sully with 150 pax behind them... they should be happy with 60K a year or so.

UAL, do you or have you ever worked for an airline? Dont blame labor for wanting to be compensated fairly for a hard job well done. A completely deregulated, fragmented industry with high fixed costs needs more regulation, not less pay for those who make the airline run. How is it that someone should have to live on food stamps for completing a hard days work. If it were up to the management at most of these companies, most airline employees would be.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3305 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
What exactly do you think a union would do for you?

Well your prospective is noted...However, I have worked for 2 unions IAM and AMFA. I was never a big fan of unions per se but we did know where we stood in relation to management. Now fast forward to post NW. At my current non-union company I was totally happy with not having a union they were treating me right. Then they imposed a 5 percent permanent paycut, loss of bonus and merit pay and 401k match for salaried employees which by the way I found out about on the news before the company told us. But the hourly employees (mechanics) only lost 401k match..In fact they got a raise. When the Teamsters came around to our houses this summer trying to get us to sign a card (me too even though I am salaried) I told them to pound it. Now after what just happened to me while the hourly employees went merrily on you don't think now that I have changed my mind about the union? Damn right I have. I am not saying I would not have taken a paycut under a union...But we ALL would have shared in the pain not just a few. BTW I have taken paycuts even under unions..I have no problem with sacrifice IF everyone shares AND it is rewarded in the good times..THAT is what NEVER happens..We never get back what we gave. Even in my case my paycut is PERMANENT even if the profits start rolling in again. That is why unions fight the way they do and might seem greedy because management in most cases take take take and make you fight to get any back if times get good.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3297 times:



Quoting USAir1 (Reply 15):
UAL, do you or have you ever worked for an airline?

I believe he was a flight attendant at one time and is now in management at UAL and it toting the anti union management mantra.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3284 times:



Quoting USAir1 (Reply 15):
You are right! How dumb could I be? Why should a ramp agent or customer service agent make more than 12 dollars an hour they are just expendable pieces of garbage, mechanics shouldnt be worth more than 20, and got those pilots like Sully with 150 pax behind them... they should be happy with 60K a year or so.

UAL, do you or have you ever worked for an airline? Dont blame labor for wanting to be compensated fairly for a hard job well done. A completely deregulated, fragmented industry with high fixed costs needs more regulation, not less pay for those who make the airline run. How is it that someone should have to live on food stamps for completing a hard days work. If it were up to the management at most of these companies, most airline employees would be.

Yup. I totally agree. Some people on this board think that we all are disposable and should make only 5.00 per hour? Where have I heard that one before............hmmmmm?
Labor is always a fault. What about bad management?

I would have liked to seen the vote if the rules are changed.
If FL ramp is fine with their situation, that's cool. They've spoken and they voted it down. But I (and a lot of others) want the rule to be changed, and have a fair election process. Not voting should not equal a NO vote.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 14):
NW showed us a lot and I hope that attitude continues at DL and all airlines.

How? Explain this one to me.......



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1647 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting T5towbar (Reply 18):
NW showed us a lot and I hope that attitude continues at DL and all airlines.

How? Explain this one to me.......

UAL is referring to how NW busted the mechanics union AMFA..He is hoping that trend continues.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 149 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 8):
What exactly do you think a union would do for you?

More vacation time.
Unlimited sick accrual.
Better holiday pay.
Better health insurance.
"Me Too Clauses".
A say in bids.
Benefits.
The list goes on and on....


User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting NW (Reply 20):
More vacation time.
Unlimited sick accrual.
Better holiday pay.
Better health insurance.
"Me Too Clauses".
A say in bids.
Benefits.
The list goes on and on....

.......and the big one.....SCOPE!



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting USAir1 (Reply 15):
Why should a ramp agent or customer service agent make more than 12 dollars an hour they are just expendable pieces of garbage, mechanics shouldnt be worth more than 20, and got those pilots like Sully with 150 pax behind them... they should be happy with 60K a year or so.

Unfortunately, this is what the market salaries are warranting in today's economic climate. The wonderful thing about this country is everyone is free to persure a new career. Yes people have trained and paid their dues and this is no different than millions of other people who have been forced to re-brand themselves into another career path. Unfortunately this is the evolution of business. The industry is not expected to turn within the next 7 -10 years according to the ATA. There will be a number of airlines to fail placing more qualified people on the street further reducing salaries.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 17):
toting the anti union management mantra.

If he or she is in management then the onus has been placed on them to further cut cost and find creative means for new revenue. The ATA has estimated future growth of United States legacy airlines will come from International travel. Domestic expansion at legacy carriers are non-existent with LCC and ULCC dominating the markets. The ATA estimates, for Legacy carriers to survive scope clauses will increase to the +120 seat range. This is why RP is taking the approach with YX and F9. In fact, UA could be one of the first carriers to increase their scope clause for survivability. No court or mediator will stand for a union to claim "all or none". Those days are over. Not to mention no matter how friendly an Administration is to unions they will not allow a take down of a major airlines on their watch.


User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting NW (Reply 20):
More vacation time.
Unlimited sick accrual.
Better holiday pay.
Better health insurance.
"Me Too Clauses".
A say in bids.
Benefits.
The list goes on and on....

I'm sorry I don't agree completely. If you have a management that is looking out for you then unions don't do a single thing listed above. I'm so sick of working with the unions I have to deal with because there are countless number of things the company wants to do to help out the unionized workforce and the union won't allow it because it's not in the contract even though it will improve QOL for everyone. If the workforce saw how many things the union refused to let the company do they would decertify the union today.

Now I will agree that there are some companies that don't protect their workforce and that's when a union works.


User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 17):
I believe he was a flight attendant at one time and is now in management at UAL and it toting the anti union management mantra.

There ya go!
In this industry all my life. Before I started working I had family in the industry and like has been stated I started before I graduated as a FA with CO and worked my way up from there. I have worked at CO, F9, and now UA.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 18):
How? Explain this one to me.......

Research the NW MX union issues and you will learn a lot!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
25 MtnWest1979 : LOL, stop right there. That is the funniest thing I have seen on here in a long time! Anyone that thinks mgmt cares one iota, you are severely misgui
26 T5towbar : I know all about the fiasco with the mechanics. They made a whole lot of mistakes and leaving the IAM for a union (or fraternal) was the biggest. The
27 Swa4life : I don't think this is as much of a case of the ramp workers all collectively deciding not to bring the union in as much as it is a case of poor coordi
28 MSYPI7185 : I agree 100% especially with your last line. That is one of the rules that the DOL is looking to change. Not voting IMO means you do not care oneway
29 AvConsultant : Unfortunately, I think those days massive hiring have left the industry for a much later date in the future. In 2007, IATA reported there would be a
30 Mayor : Except this wasn't actually a vote, but the number of cards that came into the union, saying that the employees wanted a vote and could call for an e
31 SPREE34 : Nope. It will just create more inefficiencies. Deregulation is not the culprit and cause. The carriers (management) failed to change with the deregul
32 T5towbar : No one is denying anyone the chance of a secret ballot. I am in agreement with you that ANY election, the balloting should be in a fair and secret ma
33 Stratosphere : Yep a whole lot of mistakes were made. But leaving the iam was not one of them. I worked for a lot of years under the iam and if they had been doing
34 Mayor : It is, at least in the two TWU organizing elections I took part in at DL. The ballot came to my house, in the U.S. mail. Neither management NOR the u
35 N911YX : Life is a series of choices. Only those who choose to be slaves in the modern age are thus so. Choosing to unionize is a choice to give up your free
36 SPREE34 : How are they distributed and collected?
37 Trucker : I've got a few questions for you guys that think AirTran rampers(and other employees) should be represented by the IAM. And I'm generally pro union so
38 Swa4life : Why would DL be relevant, they're not unionized either?.. I don't know off hand the pay rates for the other majors, but at Southwest where the ramp g
39 Swa4life : Also keep in mind that the $16 is at the very top of the pay scale. You have to be there at least 10 years before you get that. You'll start closer t
40 Toltommy : There's part of the problem. Did you actually work for the union, or were you a member? There's a difference. But if you were employed by an airline,
41 OOer : AirTran employess didn't reject the IAM...there was never an election. The IAM thought they had enough card to meet the 35% requirement based on the n
42 Prinair : Congratulations to the folks at AirTran for turning down the IAM. I have worked at many airlines and have found that when the corrupt unions are not a
43 T5towbar : "A" cards (authorization) are sent by the particular organizing Union. They are given out either in the parking lots, or thru the mail. They are sign
44 Wj : I wont hide it, I hate unions and see them as a cancer in any organization they are in, airline or otherwise. I am also a former IAM member. Lets be c
45 Swa4life : I think a lot of people are portraying their opinion of unions from the polar extremes of either absolutely evil or the savior of the middle class, an
46 T5towbar : So true in your statements. There is a lot of that anti-union line of thinking since the 80's. A lot of people don't understand the reasons why some
47 Trucker : Being by far the biggest airline at ATL they're gonna set the bar. If I'm an AirTran ramper making $16 an hour and the Delta rampers are also making
48 Swa4life : We're TWU.. First thing, is you're asuming we operate on a 40 hour week. We work what usually works out to be 11 day pay periods. the 1st-15th and te
49 MtnWest1979 : [quote=Trucker,reply=47]$26/hr would be $54,080/yr @ 40hrs/wk. Not sure how you get $70K/yr with minimal overtime. But don't matter. Southwest is the
50 MSYPI7185 : Not at all, You are thinking it must be one or the other. Both areas are negotiated and you get the best you can in each of these areas. In other wor
51 LH417AF025 : Good job FL. In my opinion Union's drive up costs for airlines and ultimately lead to doing jobs based on seniority and not abilities. I understand th
52 Srbmod : If things on the ramp at AirTran are anywhere near what it was when I worked for them 10 years ago, the number of folks topping out is pretty small d
53 T5towbar : Absolutely. All things are negotiated and a balance is struck somewhere along the middle. But you would rather be in a situation where you can negoti
54 ExFATboy : This brings up one of the inherent problems with unions - does a union exist to maximize the income and benefits of its working members, or to maximi
55 Lightsaber : You mention the two great disadvantages to a union seniority system. We're non-union and assign roles based on skill sets. Most of our senior guys ar
56 Trucker : No not really. You earned what you have. In an ideal world there is a perfect balance where the workers earn what the company can afford to pay them
57 Nwaesc : Don't forget CSA's, res, stock clerks, clerical, sim techs, and plant protection... All votes overseen by the NMB are conducted either via phone or i
58 MSYPI7185 : Absolutely, at one time we had about 1/3 of our ramp with an Associates degree or higher. Back when I was hired with PI, if you did not have at least
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