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Why The CR7 Over The Q400 For United?  
User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 10423 times:

With the delay and gate problems in Chicago, and with the short hope in DEN, IAD, LAX and SFO. Why don’t they use the Q400 instead of the CRJ n CR7. Everyone knows the advantages the Q has over the CRJ series. To me it would make since. Especially in ORD! There are over 20 destinations less then 350 miles that they send either a CRJ or CR7. I don’t get it.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10399 times:
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Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
Everyone knows the advantages the Q has over the CRJ series.

Everybody does?

That may be an unwarranted assumption.

But please tell us what the advantages are -- I want to learn -- Please teach me.


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10370 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 1):
But please tell us what the advantages are

I think the biggest is fuel savings. Props are more fuel efficient than jets. Especially on short routes.



RUSH
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6085 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10350 times:



Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
With the delay and gate problems in Chicago, and with the short hope in DEN, IAD, LAX and SFO.

Having a Q400 over a CRJ or CR7 is not going to solve the gate issue at ORD. An airplane is still an airplane, no matter what it is.

Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
There are over 20 destinations less then 350 miles that they send either a CRJ or CR7. I don’t get it.

When you don't have them, you can't send them. Simple as that.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10373 times:



Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
With the delay and gate problems in Chicago, and with the short hope in DEN, IAD, LAX and SFO. Why don’t they use the Q400 instead of the CRJ n CR7. Everyone knows the advantages the Q has over the CRJ series. To me it would make since. Especially in ORD! There are over 20 destinations less then 350 miles that they send either a CRJ or CR7. I don’t get it.

I think it all comes down to gate space...I beleive the Q400 takes a whole lot more than a CRJ 200 or 700 does...

Just my 0.02



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10340 times:
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I ,for one, would rather fly any RJ as opposed to Q400. I like the option of flying over 25,000 that -400 doesn't do.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10341 times:
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Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 2):
I think the biggest is fuel savings. Props are more fuel efficient than jets. Especially on short routes.

That may be true.

Yet I flew SEA-BIL-SEA last January on a QX 400.

In fact, both Horizon and Lynx fly the Q-400 over some really long distances.

And I'm not so sure there are the same types of fuel saving in the 600-800 mile range.


User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10297 times:

I’m saying use them 350 miles or less. The advantages of the Q400 over the CRJ/CR7 in ORD is, They can use the shorter runways (Freeing up the longer runways) , climb faster (Getting out of the way for the slower climbing jets), use lower cruising altitudes (Freeing up air space). Also with a RJ they would need to fill less seats to make a profit. They do have the comfort of a mainline aircraft.. With gate problem at ORD, they could cut down on frequencies and still offer the same number of available seats.

User currently offlineLASoctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 10252 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 6):
Horizon and Lynx fly the Q-400 over some really long distances.

Where do the Q400s come from to LAS? I want to assume, but would like a confirmation.



[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10229 times:
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Quoting LASoctoberB6 (Reply 8):
Where do the Q400s come from to LAS?

What airline?


User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

I saw Horizon (For Alaska) flys SEA-BIL (663 miles) and LAX-RDM (728)

User currently offlineAAmd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1061 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10172 times:



Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 4):
the Q400 takes a whole lot more than a CRJ 200 or 700 does...

Wingspan on the Q400 is significantly larger than that of the CRJ series aircraft. That would have some role to play in the whole gate space equation.

United must've had the Q400 demonstrated to them before. A Porter Q400 was chartered by Bombardier for a couple of days (full Porter crew to operate it) some time last year. The plane spent its time on charter in Chicago - not at ORD, though, but PWK (I think). I dunno who else Bombardier would be showing the aircraft to in the Chicago area aside from United... I'm not convinced it was for an airline based at PWK.  Wink


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10168 times:



Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 5):
I ,for one, would rather fly any RJ as opposed to Q400. I like the option of flying over 25,000 that -400 doesn't do.

Why? On most of the routes the OP posted about you're not going to get over 20,000 feet, let alone 25,000.

99.9% of the time that extra 10,000 feet isn't going to do much for you. If you have to fly around it at 25,000 you're wise to fly around it at 35,000 too.



DMI
User currently offlineYVPHX From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10118 times:

Call me crazy, but if there are gate spacing issues in ORD, I don't think a Q400 could use a jetway/gate, if that is what you are referring to. Does ORD have many surface gates they use with no jetways?

I know the Dash 8's here in PHX have a wingspan of about 10 feet longer total than the CRJ and a similar length comparing the CRJ-900. Also, the props spinning do not allow them to go into our jetways for liability reasons.

Horizon flies a Q400 from LAX - PRC - FLG on what seems like a daily basis and that's 342nm on the great circle.

[Edited 2009-12-05 19:32:34]

User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10081 times:

I’m pretty sure Horizon uses gateways and seen pictures with SAS Q400s at gateways.

Addition by subtraction. If your able to cut down of the number of frequencies (exp 7 Flights to 5) frees up 2 gate spaces. Now do that with 10 to 20 different destinations, frees up 20 to 40 gates or aircraft parking spots.


User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10067 times:



Quoting PI731 (Reply 7):
I’m saying use them 350 miles or less. The advantages of the Q400 over the CRJ/CR7 in ORD is, They can use the shorter runways (Freeing up the longer runways) , climb faster (Getting out of the way for the slower climbing jets), use lower cruising altitudes (Freeing up air space). Also with a RJ they would need to fill less seats to make a profit. They do have the comfort of a mainline aircraft.. With gate problem at ORD, they could cut down on frequencies and still offer the same number of available seats.

The shortest runway in ORD is 7500 feet which the CRJ-200 and 700 use without any problem. Many of the flights from ORD on legs of 200 miles or less that operate with jets don't go above 18000 feet now, so a turbo prop won't go any lower really. Also, I can guarantee you that a Q400 does not climb as fast as a CRJ700.

Since American Eagle went all jet in ORD and United followed suit, United is not likely to start turbo props in ORD anytime soon.


User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 10061 times:



Quoting YVPHX (Reply 13):
Does ORD have many surface gates they use with no jetways?

Yes. A large number of the F gates do not use jetways.


User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

Who’s responsible for the cost per flight? Does United pay their Express partners per flight? No matter how many people or one board? Or is it a percentage of profits on that flight? How do they do it?

Why does Horizon depend on the Q so much? Also is the only reason why CAL uses it due to the Express scope only allowing jets to be 50 seats? So the Q is a easy way around the scope?


User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 9936 times:



Quoting PI731 (Reply 17):
Who's responsible for the cost per flight? Does United pay their Express partners per flight? No matter how many people or one board? Or is it a percentage of profits on that flight? How do they do it?

UA has two models going. There is the fee for departure which is paid regardless of how many people are on board. UA either makes money or looses money and the regional makes money.

The second is the a pro-rate agreement which guarantees revenue for UA based on number of people on the flights, the regional takes the risk of flying. If the flight is empty the regional looses money but if the flight is full the regional makes money. UA does get a minimum amount which is considered to cover the cost of providing the code share and other things like reservations.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 9874 times:



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
Having a Q400 over a CRJ or CR7 is not going to solve the gate issue at ORD.

It would actually make it worse, because:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 4):
the Q400 takes a whole lot more than a CRJ 200 or 700 does...

There's a reason that CO moved it's ERJs to Terminal A in EWR - it's not easy to put RJs and Q400s in the same areas without ending up with some wasted space.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9781 times:
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Quoting LASoctoberB6 (Reply 8):
Where do the Q400s come from to LAS

I know QX flies them onto LAS from Santa Rosa,CA.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9763 times:
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Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 12):
If you have to fly around it at 25,000 you're wise to fly around it at 35,000 too.

But Q400s can't go 35,000 if I have my info right cuz QX maxes at 25k and it is usually smoother at 35. I have flown BOI-PDX/SEA enough on QX and WN to appreciate the difference of 10k ft.

Also, how short a trip would be deemed long enough to hit 25k?



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1289 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9739 times:



Quoting YVPHX (Reply 13):
I don't think a Q400 could use a jetway/gate, if that is what you are referring to.

Porter uses jetbridges at YOW all the time, if not exclusively...



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlineJetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9731 times:

Many pax will not fly on anything but jets. You may laugh but many companies have jet only policies


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 9716 times:



Quoting PI731 (Reply 7):
The advantages of the Q400 over the CRJ/CR7 in ORD is, They can use the shorter runways (Freeing up the longer runways) , climb faster (Getting out of the way for the slower climbing jets), use lower cruising altitudes (Freeing up air space).



Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 15):
Also, I can guarantee you that a Q400 does not climb as fast as a CRJ700.

Aren't props also typically slower in general to land, clogging up landing patterns?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Mariner : Frontier tried mixing both - mainline and Q400 - on DEN-OKC and found little or no passenger resistance to the turboprops. It worked so well that the
26 ThegreatRDU : if you look at it that way....yes Extremely false nothing could be further from the truth....
27 KGAIflyer : QX uses jetbridges at BIL also.
28 T prop : I don't think the Q400 has any problem here, more like the jets would be getting in its way. You can keep speeds up on an approach till closer in tha
29 Parton87 : It´s interesting to see that people look different on turboprops around the world.In the states it seems that many people dosn´t like props and in t
30 JoeCanuck : In Canada, we fly on Dash 8's all the time. It's just not that big of a deal.
31 Par13del : I think in this regard the US is unique in that air travel is far more prevalent and thus important than the rest of the developed world. Yes they al
32 Kstatepilot : Having flown both airplanes, I can tell you that the D8 is more capable in this regard. It can go from 230 KIAS to an approach speed of 86, and fly a
33 KcrwFlyer : The Door on the Q4 is pretty far from the engine/prop. Thats normally the only issue with Jetbridge boarding turboprops. You cant fly above 250kts be
34 ThegreatRDU : In Europe the green movement took steam before here in the US....the Fokkers to me were ok...I remember flying them on Midways Airlines years ago...I
35 UpstateDave : Horizon is moving to an all Q400 fleet due to the substantial savings in fuel, emissions, noise and reduced labor costs. The Q has a larger fuselage,
36 Post contains images KGAIflyer : Another question may be the generous publicity turboprops get when they have ground incidents. Media outlets have no trouble feeding fears of smaller
37 Mandala499 : The argument goes both ways. It's not how many destinations are fer jets... especially the clueless about aviation ones. However, it does not mean th
38 Goldenshield : I read the full report on that particular one. It's very sad for all parties involved, and stresses the importance of situational awareness.
39 Mariner : Obviously, it works for Horizon as well. They don't seem to be finding this claimed resistance to props, either. Horizon converted their CR7 orders t
40 Pnwtraveler : At YYZ the Dash 8's do an early turnout once they have reached a comfortable height for the pilot. This leaves the departure path free for the next ai
41 Cubsrule : But what happens when you need to sub an ORD-STL plane for an ORD-MHT one? That flexibility is worth something, I think. Yup - it was at PWK. I think
42 SpeedyGonzales : I guess someone forgot to tell WF, who is happily operating DH8 above 70°N at the edge of the Barents Sea.
43 SuperDash : I think to get back to the OP's question...I think all of the majors would look at the Q400 differently if they could do it over. The problem is that
44 Goldenshield : However, the number of cities for a given hub, depending the region we're talking about, still would not be enough to replace the CRJ2, let alone the
45 CWAFlyer : What some of you are missing is the fact that you don't simply replace over 200 CRJ-200/700 and ERJ's that the UAX carriers are operating. The cost to
46 SuperDash : Actually the cost curve of the Q400 and the CRJ-700 (with 70 seats, not 66) never cross. They get close, but never cross. The CRJ-700 is only more co
47 Cubsrule : But if flying exclusively 700-1000 mile routes, the CR7 also is going to have more revenue potential by virtue of being faster (and thus able to get
48 ThegreatRDU : Of course, sensationalism=higher ratings... The Q400 is a Canadian a/c also for an a/c to be certified it has to pass cold weather tests...
49 Jolau1701 : Don't think it will help much in SFO either, especially with gates that can only take EMB120s.
50 ThegreatRDU : This is actually very true...if market demand warrants an extra flight...this is an edge the RJs have...BBD knows this and they're trying as hard as
51 Par13del : I'm thinking of icing and flying around weather, would they be subject to more delays or even cancellations over the jets? Except one has to factor i
52 2H4 : Can you please provide examples of companies with such a policy? 2H4
53 Cubsrule : I can't speak for him, but for me, I was thinking of a 1-2 flight/day edge if the aircraft is doing exclusively long (say >600nm) flights.
54 ThegreatRDU : That's exactly what I'm implying...of course over an entire day the speed difference could equate to an extra flight...demand permitting I second tha
55 Par13del : Agree, outside the 500nm circle mentioned, the speed advantage increases dramatically, you could probably get an extra flight by late am early pm.
56 2H4 : I even doubt that. Granted, I've never conducted or seen a study presenting data one way or the other, but I highly doubt more than a handful of medi
57 Thegreatchecko : 1.) Severe icing, is severe icing, no one flies. Furthermore, severe icing is usually confined to just a few hundred feet, so a small climb or descen
58 Flyinryan99 : Very good point...or they could increase their destinations too
59 PPVRA : Interesting, thanks to all for the replies/explanations! I was under the impression that speed was always a problem.
60 Goldenshield : The problem with that, is that there are very few left that would stand to make a profit from ORD.
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