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BA & The B767  
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3318 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12022 times:

Looking at www.planespotters.net I never realsied that BA had so many 767, 18, some 20 years old, do they still make money or are they a drag on the company budget sheet?


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11961 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Looking at www.planespotters.net I never realsied that BA had so many 767, 18, some 20 years old, do they still make money or are they a drag on the company budget sheet?

I would not be surprised if at this point, even with maintenance costs, these a/c still make plenty of money for BA. At this point, those a/c are more than likely paid for (if they're not leased), so not having to make payments helps as well.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11929 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
I never realsied that BA had so many 767, 18, some 20 years old,

I believe BA currently has 21 763s, not 18. They took delivery of 28 but leased, and later sold, 7 to QF some years ago.

Those used on longhaul routes are useful during off-peak periods when demand doesn't justify a 772, and those with their European shorthaul configuration are probably good for routes with strong passenger (and cargo) demand.


User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11927 times:

BA might as well use them themselves, because their Rolls Royce engined 767's have little resale value to other airlines.

User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11870 times:
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Answer #1 - BA recently spent a bundle of money "darking" their TATL 767s with 24 lie flat beds in F class; 24 extra wide seats in C class, and 144 new Y class seats. I assume these birds have passed their heavy checks and will be around for even more years of service.

Answer #2 - Several areas do as we do here in Maryland. Our BWI-LHR BA 767 is subsidized by the State of Maryland aviation authority. So even if the route doesn't make money, it won't *lose* money either.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11853 times:

BA's 21 remaining 767-336ER aircraft are spilt 2/3 longhaul and 1/3 shorthaul.

They were introduced as a TriStar replacement for both longhaul and shorthaul routes. Longhaul they were primarily used on services to the Gulf states, particularly useful as the introduction of the 747-436 was eliminating the need for stop-overs in these states on longhaul flights to SE Asia and Australia. BA also used them to add frequency on East Coast USA flights, where previously there might just have been a daily 747 service.

At one point up to three aircraft were used on regional flights to JFK (MAN/BHX/GLA, and a short-lived MAN-LAX service). This became one aircraft on MAN-JFK by the mid-1990s.

Their fortunes on longhaul flights have been mixed. By the mid-1990s BA was looking at using bigger aircraft on routes, and a number were converted to shorthaul configurations. LHR was an all S/H 767 base at one point, with all L/H 767s at LGW. Configuration wise the L/H aircraft were delivered in three-class (FCM), most were converted to two-class at LGW (CM), then were converted back to three-class (FCM). First was removed when World Traveller Plus was introduced, so the layout became CWM.

All 767s are now LHR based, and have been since BA made LGW a 777 only base for L/H flights. The 787 is meant to replace the 767 on longhaul flights, but S/H (where the aircraft seems to be used for cargo capacity) there is no direct replacement.

BA's 767-336ERs are also RR RB211 powered, and apart from the 28 built for BA only three other 767s were built with RR RB211 engines, for China Yunnan Airlines.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11765 times:

Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 4):
Several areas do as we do here in Maryland. Our BWI-LHR BA 767 is subsidized by the State of Maryland aviation authority. So even if the route doesn't make money, it won't *lose* money either.

I often wondered how/why BA continued to serve BWI.

[Edited 2009-12-06 11:13:25]

[Edited 2009-12-06 11:24:33 by srbmod]


RUSH
User currently offlineJetBlast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11753 times:



Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 6):
I often wondered how/why BA continued to serve BWI.

Loads in the summer aren't too bad, we regularly send the airplane almost at capacity. Winter isn't too great, but I'm glad it's subsidised so I can work year-round.



Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlineYYZALA From Canada, joined Nov 2009, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11731 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 4):

That makes no sense! While I understand subsidizing a certain route, why would the state of Maryland subsidize a non-US carrier?


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11707 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 4):
Answer #1 - BA recently spent a bundle of money "darking" their TATL 767s with 24 lie flat beds in F class; 24 extra wide seats in C class, and 144 new Y class seats. I assume these birds have passed their heavy checks and will be around for even more years of service.

No First on the 14 L/H birds. It's 24 Club World seats (the original lie-flat style - they won't get NCW). The 24 "extra wide seats in C" are 24 World Traveller Plus seats.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11673 times:



Quoting YYZALA (Reply 8):
That makes no sense! While I understand subsidizing a certain route, why would the state of Maryland subsidize a non-US carrier?

If they want to subsidize the route what difference should it make which carrier operates it?


User currently offlineYYZALA From Canada, joined Nov 2009, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11485 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 10):

Wouldn't you rather pay your own airline to operate the route vs a foreign one?


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11399 times:
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Quoting YYZALA (Reply 8):
That makes no sense! While I understand subsidizing a certain route, why would the state of Maryland subsidize a non-US carrier?

Maryland doesn't have many options, really, with IAD being only 45 miles to the SW and PHL being only 90 miles to the NE. Virtually every international carrier starting service at BWI has pulled out -- except AC.

And AC in the meantime has downsized its operation to AC/Jazz turboprops.

The day the subsidies stop, BA service will stop, also.


User currently offlineLawair From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11287 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 13):
Virtually every international carrier starting service at BWI has pulled out -- except AC.

and JM, although the airline is on the ropes and FL's inauguration of BWI-MBJ might just kill the JM flight.

With the exception of 2002 and this past year, the BWI-LHR flight has done fairly well. I'm not sure if it's well enough to justify the route without revenue guarantees, but still well. For 3/4s of the past 12 months the load factor has been higher than 75%, even though the route has had more trouble this year than previously. The fares also tend to be comparable to those on the IAD flights as well. If the flight can't make it with loads above 80% at fares equal to those at IAD then something must be wrong with their business model and the 763...or the cargo is nonexistent and BWI's costs are simply much higher (both factors which are probably not true).

It's still early, but the passenger numbers seem to be picking up again. October had a load factor of around 87% according to BWI's data.


User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11181 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 13):
The day the subsidies stop, BA service will stop, also.

well said.....the thing about BWI it's not a year-round performer....and BA can't downsize the capacity...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11138 times:



Quoting YYZALA (Reply 8):
That makes no sense! While I understand subsidizing a certain route, why would the state of Maryland subsidize a non-US carrier?

Because British Airways threatened to pull out, and Maryland made money talk. If it were American, Delta, etc... on the same route, they would have done the same thing.

If ATI goes through, I am going to wager that American takes over BWI-LHR with one of its 767-300s or a 757-200, it's better suited for the market than one of BA's more premium 767s.


User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11065 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Those used on longhaul routes are useful during off-peak periods when demand doesn't justify a 772, and those with their European shorthaul configuration are probably good for routes with strong passenger (and cargo) demand.

I just put in some random dates for december it looks like they are using the 1x daily 763 to YUL, 2x daily to YYZ and 1x daily 763 to YYC. like as stated above BWI is a 763, EWR used to be a 763 when BA had a 3x daily frequency and now it is just 2x daily 772's. Doesn't BA use the 763's to some caribbean destinations also?


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11047 times:



Quoting JetBlast (Reply 7):

I haven't seen the 777 in a while. I know they used to send that in the summer and the 767 in the winter.



RUSH
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11020 times:



Quoting EwRkId (Reply 17):
Doesn't BA use the 763's to some caribbean destinations also?

Only the 5x weekly service to Nassau, that goes on to Grand Cayman 4x weekly and 1x weekly to Providenciales.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11000 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 4):
BA recently spent a bundle of money "darking" their TATL 767s with 24 lie flat beds in F class; 24 extra wide seats in C class, and 144 new Y class seats

The first 2 classes are not correct. BA longhaul 763s do not have F class. F should read J (business class, called Club World), and C should read W (premium economy, called World Traveller Plus).


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5713 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10896 times:



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 5):
BA's 767-336ERs are also RR RB211 powered, and apart from the 28 built for BA only three other 767s were built with RR RB211 engines, for China Yunnan Airlines.



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 3):
BA might as well use them themselves, because their Rolls Royce engined 767's have little resale value to other airlines.

While quote 1 is true, quote 2 is misleading. While there were only 31 B763 built with RR engines, there were a hell of a lot more B742, 743 & 744s built with the same RR RB211 engine. It means they are not as much the orphan as they seem. An airline with RR B747s would find the engines perfectly acceptable.

This is why QF purchased the 7 airframes from BA. While the QF ordered B763s had GE engines, their B747s had RR RB211s. It also explains why QF purchased GE B747s both new and second hand, they already had that engine on their B767s.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10845 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
The first 2 classes are not correct. BA longhaul 763s do not have F class. F should read J (business class, called Club World), and C should read W (premium economy, called World Traveller Plus).

 checkmark 

Quoting EwRkId (Reply 17):
I just put in some random dates for december it looks like they are using the 1x daily 763 to YUL, 2x daily to YYZ and 1x daily 763 to YYC. like as stated above BWI is a 763, EWR used to be a 763 when BA had a 3x daily frequency and now it is just 2x daily 772's. Doesn't BA use the 763's to some caribbean destinations also?

YYC is 763 year-round. YUL is back to B772 as of March 28 (it's the second year they are putting a B763 in winter time). YYZ has at least one 763 landing there every day of the year.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25638 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10802 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 21):
An airline with RR B747s would find the engines perfectly acceptable.

What airlines would those be? I don't think CX, NZ or SV are in the market for any used 763s, and Cargolux certainly isn't. And SA has retired all except 2 of their 744s, and those had been retired but were returned to service temporarily, probably because they couldn't find a buyer for them.

If NZ had been interested in engine standardization, they would have ordered their 763s with R-R engines, not GE. Their 763s were ordered several years after their 744s so they obviously considered the GE 763s better. And they were no doubt also considering resale value with so few R-R 763s built. I have also read that GE 763s have better payload-range performance but I have no idea whether that's correct.


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 721 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10751 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 4):
BA recently spent a bundle of money "darking" their TATL 767s

The process was called dusking, was it not?


User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10701 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 21):
While quote 1 is true, quote 2 is misleading. While there were only 31 B763 built with RR engines, there were a hell of a lot more B742, 743 & 744s built with the same RR RB211 engine. It means they are not as much the orphan as they seem. An airline with RR B747s would find the engines perfectly acceptable.

This is why QF purchased the 7 airframes from BA. While the QF ordered B763s had GE engines, their B747s had RR RB211s. It also explains why QF purchased GE B747s both new and second hand, they already had that engine on their B767s.

But QF is now getting rid of their 767's. The Google corporate 767 was one of the QF RR engined 767's that was coming up on a D check when it was sold. There's not enough RR powered 767's available to make them worthwhile for freighter conversions.


25 Gemuser : You missed the point. If you already have RR B747s, then a RR powered B763 is not as much as orphan as it would otherwise be. That is the only point
26 MCOflyer : A quick search reveals it was a 767-238 with PW Engines. KH
27 Cslusarc : Yes, you got that term right. LHR - YYC is the right type of route for the 763, as the premium sections don't hold as much pax as the 772 or the 744.
28 Viscount724 : Yes, I thought you were referring to the ability of current R-R 763 operators to sell them to R-R 747 operators other than QF/BA, which are rather fe
29 Divemaster08 : BAs 763s are a good workhorse for them! We see the 18 of them here at GCM (only one at a time) and they are pretty much full most of the year. Was spe
30 Sketty222 : see below I thought the 76's were definately getting the NGCW?
31 KGAIflyer : Yes -- that's it. There was no sense in checking since I knew someone would correct me.
32 SunriseValley : I think by the time NZ ordered their 763's they had switched to GE powered 744's. They in common with others used the "hand me down" procedure of rem
33 Tonystan : Nopes....Always said from the start that the 767 fleet would never get NCW as the aircraft are already marked up for imminent replacement. The mere f
34 VV701 : BA also uses the 763 on most of its longer short haul routes where, because of the distance / flight time, frequency is not so much of an issue. So BA
35 FlyCaledonian : I thought ACC had been upgraded to a 777 for the Winter?
36 Mastermis : Interesting! Never knew that our 7000ft runway could handle a T7. M.
37 Babybus : When I passed a few of those BA 767s at LHR the other day I was a little shocked to see the way they have let them become tatty. The paint is peeling
38 PRM :
39 TristarSteve : Well the plan was to retire them! BA ordered B787 to replace the longhaul B763 fleet. But they are a little later than promised by Boeing!!! So the e
40 Tonystan : How right you are....phew thats a relief! LOL!
41 Geo772 : The 767 is just the right aircraft for many routes at the moment, with a lower proportion of premium seats than the 777s it allows more marginal route
42 Readytotaxi : For my trip to LCA with BA in January what type of cabin will I get in Club Class, do you know? TIA
43 HeeBeeGB : Club europe I am afraid. Unless you get very lucky and have an equipment change.
44 Readytotaxi : Oh Hmmmm!
45 Nibog : As a matter of interest,do BA operate 763s to DXB as well,or is it mainly 747-400's?
46 VV701 : Yes. There are two flights currently operating every day of the week. BA107 is a 744. BA109 is a 772. On Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays there is also
47 Nibog : Thanks very much for the info VV701,so for a BA DXB flight i could possibly samle 2 different types of the BA longhaul fleet!!!!!.I will have to try
48 Fruitbat : I was on the first BA 767 at BHX prior to those services being launched - as part of a regular C of A check we were asked to land there to check the
49 Eg777er : I was on a 767 on an early morning (8am?) flight LHR-GVA earlier this year. Was nice to get a widebody on such a short flight for a change as opposed
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