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Tristar L-1011 How Many Freighter Conversions?  
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 10999 times:

I have long been fascinated by the beautiful Lockheed Tristar L-1011. It was the third widebody passenger jet airliner to enter operation, following the Boeing 747 and the McDonnell Douglas DC-10. So much so that I took some time to write up tribute to it a couple of years ago.  Wink

L-1011 A Tribute By Wings (by WINGS Oct 11 2006 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3035490&searchid=3035490&s=L1011+tribute#ID3035490

It is interesting that both the 747 and DC-10 went on to became very popular freighters while the L1011 was for some reason overlooked for this task. If I'm not mistaken Lockheed did not offer the L1011 as a freighter although some aircraft were converted from passenger operations into freighters.

Over the weekend I was fortunate enough to take a stroll down memory lane. I recently acquired the ''L-1011 Cockpit Worlds First L-1011 Freight Dog!'' DVD produced by Airutopia. The DVD primarily goes through a detailed pre-flight inspections and delivery flight to it new home in Bangladesh following a storage of more than two years. The aircraft depicted in this film is the 12th Tristar produced and the oldest L-1011 in the world still flying. MSN 1012 was the first L1011 to be converted to a freighter standard in 1987.



I would like to know if this particular aircraft is still in active service? I'm also interested to know what other L1011 freighters are still in active service and if their exists detailed information covering all conversion of this beautiful aircraft, and information concerning its lack of interest as a freighter.

Regards,
Wings


Aviation Is A Passion.
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 10925 times:

Eleven (11) L-1011's were converted to freighters, with main cabin freight doors. Ten (10) of these were done by Marshall in the UK and one (1) conversion was started in Miami by a company named Monarch and completed by Pimco in Mobile Alabama. The Marshall conversions were all L-1011-200's while the Monarch freighter was an L-1011-1.

The L-1011 in the video is the Monarch freighter s/n 1012 (the twelfth L-1011 produced) delivered to Eastern Airlines and they operated it until it was sold for conversion to the freighter configuration. An airline called Sky Capital Airlines based in Dhaka has just acquired s/n 1012 and plans to put it in service.

In addition to the ten (10) civilian TriStars converted by Marshall they also added main cabin freight door to four (4) RAF L-1011-500's.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 10738 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
Eleven (11) L-1011's were converted to freighters, with main cabin freight doors. Ten (10) of these were done by Marshall in the UK and one (1) conversion was started in Miami by a company named Monarch and completed by Pimco in Mobile Alabama. The Marshall conversions were all L-1011-200's while the Monarch freighter was an L-1011-1.

Thank You so much for the very detailed information. So the L1011 (msn 1012) is basically one of a kind as only one frame was converted by Monarch.

Would you have an opinion as to why so few L-1011's were converted into freighters? Did it have anything to do with payload capabilities?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 10673 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 2):
Would you have an opinion as to why so few L-1011's were converted into freighters? Did it have anything to do with payload capabilities?

Payload was one major consideration along with range, cost and limited number of suitable airframes. The only real suitable L-1011 for conversion was the -200 (additional fuel capacity and RB211-524 engines), and there were only thirty six (36) -200's built and ten (10) of these were converted. Freighter conversion cost 12 to 14 million dollars in the 1990's, if you had to bring a -1 or -100 airframe up to -200 standards it would add addition 4 million.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10558 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 3):
Payload was one major consideration along with range

Would you happen to know how a L1011-200 would weigh up against the DC-10-30 in this field?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 3):
The only real suitable L-1011 for conversion was the -200 (additional fuel capacity and RB211-524 engines), and there were only thirty six (36) -200's built and ten (10) of these were converted

When you put things into this context, it does provide a better understanding as to why the L1011 was overlooked for conversions.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
An airline called Sky Capital Airlines based in Dhaka has just acquired s/n 1012 and plans to put it in service.

I look forward to seeing the L1011 in service for a while longer. Such a shame that a beautiful aircraft had a premature end.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineSoundtrack From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10469 times:

Where is this plane now?

I wonder if this is a plane that is already stored somewhere in the Middeast like Al Fujeirah or some place like this.

Anyone know?


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10414 times:



Quoting Soundtrack (Reply 5):
Where is this plane now?

Well 474218 mentioned in reply 1 that the L1011 (msn 1012) featured in the DVD has been acquired by Sky Capital Airlines based in Dhaka.

BTW I highly recommend this DVD production. It is nicely detailed for those who want to take a closer look into this wonderful classic. What is even more interesting is that the DVD features an unexpected engine shut down in mid flight on its delivery flight.  Wink

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 10310 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
Would you happen to know how a L1011-200 would weigh up against the DC-10-30 in this field?

DC-10-30*: MTOW: 530,000 lbs, Maximum Load: 175,000 lbs, Range 3800 miles.

L-1011-200**: MTOW 474,000 lbs, Maximum Load: 127,000 lbs, Range 2700 miles.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 4):
I look forward to seeing the L1011 in service for a while longer. Such a shame that a beautiful aircraft had a premature end.

Me too, but since I worked on L-1011's for over thirty years, so I am a little prejudice.

* from Boeing web site.

** from Marshall sale brochure.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 10039 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):

DC-10-30*: MTOW: 530,000 lbs, Maximum Load: 175,000 lbs, Range 3800 miles.

L-1011-200**: MTOW 474,000 lbs, Maximum Load: 127,000 lbs, Range 2700 miles.

Once again thank you for the very interesting information. It provides us with a better understanding to the real weakness that the L-1011 Freighter faced versus the DC-10 Freighter.

I'm actually surprised to see that the L-1011-200 carried less 48,000 lbs than the DC-10-30. Any particular reason for this?

Could it be that the RB211-524 engines were less efficient than the General Electric CF6-50 ?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
Me too, but since I worked on L-1011's for over thirty years, so I am a little prejudice.

Just a little, but I'm fine with that.  Wink

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

Would anyone have a list of the current operators of the L-1011 in commercial service? According to Wikipedia.org (take it for what it's worth) mentions that their are currently 16 L-1011's in service with the following airlines:

SAM Intercontinental (3)
EuroAtlantic Airways (1)
Goliaf Air (1)
Las Vegas Sands (1)
Orbital Sciences Corporation (1)
Royal Air Force (9)


Is anyone aware of any other airline that currently operates the L-1011 or likely to do so?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9854 times:
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Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
BTW I highly recommend this DVD production. It is nicely detailed for those who want to take a closer look into this wonderful classic. What is even more interesting is that the DVD features an unexpected engine shut down in mid flight on its delivery flight

I like the DVD too. I liked it better than some of the other cockpit DVDs I have. It was cool because it wasn't just cockpit, but just about all the other parts of the plane too. The FE who is the narrator seemed to be a cool guy.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):
Is anyone aware of any other airline that currently operates the L-1011 or likely to do so?

I saw in the newest issue of Airways that three ATA L1011s are going back into service with a middle east operator.

Looks like the plane from the DVD is out of service.
<script LANGUAGE='JavaScript' SRC='http://www.airliners.net/photoLink.inc?id=1615715' TYPE='text/javascript'></script>



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9732 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 10):
I like the DVD too. I liked it better than some of the other cockpit DVDs I have. It was cool because it wasn't just cockpit, but just about all the other parts of the plane too. The FE who is the narrator seemed to be a cool guy.

Correct, I also enjoyed the detailed information provided by the FE. Over all I was very satisfied with the DVD. I helped me gain further background knowledge regarding the L-1011.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 10):
I saw in the newest issue of Airways that three ATA L1011s are going back into service with a middle east operator.

This is wonderful news. Shame that we do not see many L-1011 in Europe. I'm fortunate enough to have the Euro Atlantic example down in Lisbon.  Wink

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineSoundtrack From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9625 times:

Here's a review from L1011 blog

http://tristar500.blogspot.com/search/label/Reviews

looks pretty good...


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2067 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9619 times:

Would converted the -200 frames to-250 standard have made much difference to range/MTOW when used as a freighter?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9537 times:



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
Would converted the -200 frames to-250 standard have made much difference to range/MTOW when used as a freighter?

Yes, adding 36,000 lbs fuel, in two (2) additional center wing box fuel bays and reinforcing the structure in the wings, fuselage and horizontal stabilizer, allowed the the MTOW to to be increased to 510,000 lbs and increased the maximum range about 800 miles. However, it added only a marginal amount to the maximum payload.


User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1378 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9516 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):

Well I have read and in that Tristar DVD they mention that the 747 and DC-10 were designed with freighter intentions and that the Tristar was not. Also that something with the design that in its flooring cannot be reinforced to be able to take heavier loads despite it having slightly more internal volume than than DC-10.



Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24658 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9466 times:



Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 15):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):


Well I have read and in that Tristar DVD they mention that the 747 and DC-10 were designed with freighter intentions and that the Tristar was not.

About 12% of all commercial DC-10s built (45 aircraft, not counting the 60 KC-10s for the USAF) were built with main deck cargo doors, as both pure freighters (11 aircraft for Fedex) and as convertible passenger-cargo combis (34 aircraft). That meant those 34 aircraft were already available for conversion to freighters with much less work needed than converting L-1011s. And much of the design work needed for later freighter conversion of passenger DC-10s was already done for the factory-built combis and freighters..


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9434 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
The L-1011 in the video is the Monarch freighter s/n 1012 (the twelfth L-1011 produced) delivered to Eastern Airlines and they operated it until it was sold for conversion to the freighter configuration. An airline called Sky Capital Airlines based in Dhaka has just acquired s/n 1012 and plans to put it in service.

I have that video here at my home and I watch it from time to time. Very interesting video and what's even better, they have engine trouble about half-way through the flight! Pretty awesome considering how one assumes that everything runs perfectly smooth in these videos.

I personally recommend this video for any fan of the L-1011 personally!!!!

BTW, many ended up looking like this:

Fine Air Lockheed L-1011-385-1-15 TriStar 200(F) (N260FA)

I am going to upload this shot here very soon because I just LOVE IT!!!!

[Edited 2009-12-10 15:12:58 by lexy]


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7383 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

A pity that no one does the decent thing.

User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9380 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 18):
A pity that no one does the decent thing.

There is around a foot of dead birds and fowl poo in the floor of this airplane. It was hard to even stand around. This airplane was about to be processed as a bio-hazard before it's torn apart. God Bless the people that have to deal with this forsaken.........Thing.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9307 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Lexy (Reply 17):
I am going to upload this shot here very soon because I just LOVE IT!!!!

[Edited 2009-12-10 15:12:58 by lexy]

Where is that thing?



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9289 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 20):
Where is that thing?

Roswell NM.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9278 times:



Quoting Lexy (Reply 17):
I am going to upload this shot here very soon because I just LOVE IT!!!!

 checkmark   silly 

Those birds appear to really enjoy the L-1011. A lot.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9157 times:



Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 15):

Well I have read and in that Tristar DVD they mention that the 747 and DC-10 were designed with freighter intentions and that the Tristar was not. Also that something with the design that in its flooring cannot be reinforced to be able to take heavier loads despite it having slightly more internal volume than than DC-10.

You are indeed correct.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):

About 12% of all commercial DC-10s built (45 aircraft, not counting the 60 KC-10s for the USAF) were built with main deck cargo doors, as both pure freighters (11 aircraft for Fedex) and as convertible passenger-cargo combis (34 aircraft). That meant those 34 aircraft were already available for conversion to freighters with much less work needed than converting L-1011s. And much of the design work needed for later freighter conversion of passenger DC-10s was already done for the factory-built combis and freighters..

Interesting information Viscount724. It would seem that Douglas though well in advance when designing the DC-10. Shame that Lockheed did not follow the same road.  Sad

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Those birds appear to really enjoy the L-1011. A lot.

Who doesn't like the L-1011 ?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineSoundtrack From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9151 times:

Does anyone know where the L1011 in this video (formerly Thai Sky) is right now?

Still in Dhaka?


25 DC10BHX : I have enjoyed this thread. I must admit (even accounting for my user name) the L1011 is one of the classiest aircraft I can remember having flown on.
26 FX1816 : I believe most if not all of the AIA/Kitty Hawk L1011's are sitting here in VCV. A few have even been pulled up the scrapping area in the past few mo
27 474218 : AIA/Kalitta/Kitty Hawk had six (6) L-1011-200F's. Two are have been attrited (broken up), two (2) are still at Victorville and one (1) is parked in K
28 FX1816 : You sure that two are just at VCV?? I live only 5 minutes away and drive by everyday and there are two of them still in the Kalitta colors and one in
29 474218 : You are correct: There are three still at Victorville: s/n's 1182 (in BA colors), 1193 and 1211. Lockheed records (supplied to them by the owner) sho
30 Milesrich : Ron Allen never ran a cargo airline, if fact, he didn't think air cargo was profitable. There is your other reason. No flaming please. But Allen had
31 Post contains links and images 474218 : Unless you have something to back your statement of costs I suggest reading the following: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pd
32 FX1816 : Thanks for the info on those 3, I remember working the ramp with some of them. I guess it seems fitting too with all of the L10's here at VCV that th
33 Transpac787 : That document is dated 1999... not even close to being recent, or accurate information. Back in 1999, the L-1011 was still remarkably prevalent in co
34 474218 : First, How do you know the information is not accurate? Second, The statement was made that the DC-10 was less expensive to operate than the L-1011.
35 Transpac787 : Because it's a decade old... The documents you provided show that the opposite is in fact true *10 years ago*. Your information is not current in any
36 FXramper : There is an obscure article discussing the possibility of bringing the L-1011 to the FX fleet at one point in the past, but I'm unable to locate. Just
37 474218 : It is not supposed to be current. I provided the operating cost of the DC-10 and L-1011 when both were being operated by airlines like Delta, United,
38 474218 : There were never any discussions with FX, but there were with UPS. In 1996 Lockheed, Rolls Royce and Delta proposed converting 44 ex-Delta L-1011's t
39 Milesrich : That is nothing but anecdotal evidence from one quarter of 1999, and means absolutely nothing. For example, it shows much higher maintenance costs fo
40 Post contains links Milesrich : I found the source of your information: George at Texasair. Here is a link to his old website. http://www.texasair.net/New_Folder/economics.htm Georg
41 Fx1816 : Delta retired them in 2001 actually. FX1816
42 474218 : I am still waiting for something that says the DC-10 was cheaper to operate than the L-1011. Everything stated in the referenced web site is confirme
43 Transpac787 : The L-1011 most likely was cheaper to operate, same as you contend. However, it lifted a significantly lighter payload a lot shorter distance. As the
44 Milesrich : [quote=Fx1816,reply=41]Quoting Milesrich (Reply 40): Why did Delta retire them in 1999 if all this is true? Delta retired them in 2001 actually. You
45 Viscount724 : How many are still flying in commercial service? Very few I believe. I think it's highly unlikely that any now stored will return to service. And who
46 FX1816 : I don't really know about this one but I don't believe that the operating costs of the L1011 played a big a roll as did the leasing costs but I could
47 474218 : Hawaiian bought five (5) ex-ANA L-1011's in 1985 which they operated until 1994, nine (9) years. Shortly after purchasing the TriStars they were sold
48 TZTriStar500 : ATA had over 20 at the height. We (ATA) operated both the L-1011 and DC-10 toward the end of their service lives as passenger carriers and I can say
49 Viscount724 : AC operated 18 L-1011s.
50 474218 : NH operated 21 L-1011's. BA operated 21 L-1011's SV operated 16 L-1011's CX operated 21 L-1011's
51 Viscount724 : Apart from possibly ATA, CX must have been the largest operator of L-1011s acquired used from other carriers. I believe only 2 CX L-1011s were deliiv
52 Milesrich : I rest my case!, 474218. If you have any other evidence, other than that worthless anecdotal list from one quarter of 1999 posted by that wannabe ope
53 TZTriStar500 : Well, I didn't quite state this to back up your earlier statement, but to simply state our experience at ATA. Actually in the 1990's both types (DC-1
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