If McDonnell Douglas would still be in function, how would it change Airbus's mindset towards the A380? Or would there be even any difference in the aviation world?
DenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8960 times:
I thought I remembered reading that the exploration of the hyper-jumbo was a collaborative effort by aircraft manufacturers. The market at the time wasn't thought to be a big one or McD didn't have the funds to pursue it, hence up to Airbus to go for it. Something like that, right? I don't think it would be financially feasible for two manufacturers to go after the hyper-jumbo market. Off topic, but in my fave super-nintendo game Aerobiz Supersonic, the MD-12 is just a large single deck airliner that seats 400. Not sure where that came from, but perhaps that was an option at some point for McD.
DariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8952 times:
I also remember the Sukhoi KR-860 and Boeing NLA Projects... Both of which hit rock bottom in the 90s, I believe.
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4399 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8922 times:
Quoting DariusBieber (Thread starter): If McDonnell Douglas would still be in function, how would it change Airbus's mindset towards the A380? Or would there be even any difference in the aviation world?
I'm fairly certain, all else equal, if McD had built the MD-12, Airbus wouldn't have built the A380.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8922 times:
The MD-12 was actually a smaller plane than the A380-800, as I recall.
Going with my gut, if Boeing had launched a "true" VLA sized around the A380 (and not another 747 rehash), I think it would have been better received because Boeing had been building the 747 for three decades. I think that would have made customers a bit more comfortable with Boeing because of that experience.
But that's just a gut call and it assumes Boeing would have offered a product with the same technical excellence Airbus put into the A3XX / A380.
HNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 724 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8820 times:
Boeing has maintained for several years that the market for A-380 sized aircraft was too small to support the development costs, etc. Sales thus far may support that position and if the UA order is as they claim, to replace the B-744's with A-359's it could very well be an indication of where the market is going. It would be rather ironic if the A-350 series was the undoing of the A-380.
Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2378 posts, RR: 29 Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8747 times:
There is a reason McDonnell Douglas is no more...
They spent too much time on impractical ideas like these and not enough time making their MD-11s up to par
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
SmithAir747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 38 Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8714 times:
The Russians also were developing a concept for the world's largest passenger airliner, the double-decker Sukhoi KR-860 (also named "Kryl'ya Rossii", or "The Wings of Russia").
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 11034 posts, RR: 72 Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8690 times:
Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 1): I thought I remembered reading that the exploration of the hyper-jumbo was a collaborative effort by aircraft manufacturers. The market at the time wasn't thought to be a big one or McD didn't have the funds to pursue it, hence up to Airbus to go for it. Something like that, right?
There was a joint study a while back...I think it was Boeing/Airbus, but that may be a heritage MD thing that's now under the Boeing umbrella after the merger.
Airbus thought there was enough market to justify if, Boeing/MD didn't. Airbus said "OK, we'll do it on our own" and the A380 was born. If Boeing/MD didn't think there was market for one new airplane, they really obviously didn't think there was market for two, hence no Boeing/MD direct A380 competitor.
For now, Airbus won't touch it, it'd only cannibalize sales of A380, for Boeing, they still don't believe there's a market for VLA, let alone 2 makers. But sooner or later, either one will have to develop and build one, perhaps from airlines' demands. Our member Keesj (sorry if I spell wrong) had also drawn Econoliner concept.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11545 posts, RR: 27 Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7961 times:
Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 1): I thought I remembered reading that the exploration of the hyper-jumbo was a collaborative effort by aircraft manufacturers.
McDonnell Douglas and Airbus were collaborating on some project, and it may even have been this I don't remember off hand. But there was a relationship there, in fact I think that Airbus even made overtures to buy McDonnell Douglas at the end.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6): They spent too much time on impractical ideas like these and not enough time making their MD-11s up to par
Don't forget the MD-94X propfan powered airliner.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1858 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7923 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 4): The MD-12 was actually a smaller plane than the A380-800, as I recall.
Didn't the MD-12 turn out to be something of a stretched MD-11, bigger engines and some aerodynamic refinements?
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11545 posts, RR: 27 Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7880 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 12): Didn't the MD-12 turn out to be something of a stretched MD-11, bigger engines and some aerodynamic refinements?
I believe that that there were several MD-12 concepts tossed around and that may have been one of them. I do recall seeing a picture of a model of something similar to your description.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7759 times:
Quoting Ammunition (Reply 10): Would it be posible to build or would there be demand for a narrowbody twin-deck aircraft?
One of the earliest 747 studies was a double-deck narrowbody (essentially two 707 cabins stacked on top of each other).
Boeing 747 Twin-Deck Narrowbody Study
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 12): Didn't the MD-12 turn out to be something of a stretched MD-11, bigger engines and some aerodynamic refinements?
No, that was the MD-XX and MD-XX-LR programs.
MD-XX-LR Design Study
The MD-12 was a true twin-deck widebody with a capacity of 430-511 able to fit Economy on the upper deck at 2+3+2 and Business Class on the main deck at 2+2+2+2. She'd have been 208 feet long with a span of 213 feet.
However, even MD's own projections showed the MD-12 only burning 1% less fuel than a 747-400 at 430 seats (rising to 12% in the high-density 511 seat configuration).
SolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 314 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7701 times:
Yeah, the MD-12 was well ahead of the A380 at the time but McD was not in real good financial shape and would have needed Airbus to help fund and build it. Still, in another time and place I think they could have gotten it to work. I think the MD-12 was actually an attempt to compete with the 747.
2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 5796 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6770 times:
Boeing had two pure double-deck concepts in the early to mid 1990's one proposal and the earliest looked like a two decked 777 with four engines and the NLA the later proposed one had five aisles and an upstairs cockpit with a 747 styled glareshield and a similar section 41.
The 747-500X,600X,700X and 747-X program would have been good competitors to the A380 as they are much larger than the 747-400, all over 1,000,000 lbs MTOW.
Boeing also had the BWB from Douglas about 800 passengers and an ultra wide body concept based on the 777 called the 763-246C
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 11034 posts, RR: 72 Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6473 times:
Quoting Ammunition (Reply 10): Would it be posible to build or would there be demand for a narrowbody twin-deck aircraft?
At Stitch noted, that was the original design for Boeing's large capacity jet. What they actually built was the 747...because the economics were better.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11545 posts, RR: 27 Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6254 times:
Quoting 2707200X (Reply 16): Boeing had two pure double-deck concepts in the early to mid 1990's one proposal and the earliest looked like a two decked 777 with four engines and the NLA the later proposed one had five aisles and an upstairs cockpit with a 747 styled glareshield and a similar section 41.
I saw one concept that looked like a 767 with a 757 fuselage perched on top of the back half of it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3228 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6242 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14): The MD-12 was a true twin-deck widebody with a capacity of 430-511 able to fit Economy on the upper deck at 2+3+2 and Business Class on the main deck at 2+2+2+2. She'd have been 208 feet long with a span of 213 feet.
There was actually a MD-12 trijet concept as well. I have one of the press packet photos, but its in a box buried. I'll try to dig it out. The "photo" just took the MD-11 in the purple house colors and extended it and plopped MD-12 on it. It also came with the quad jet photos and profiles as well.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6009 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18): I saw one concept that looked like a 767 with a 757 fuselage perched on top of the back half of it.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 40 Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5992 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 19): There was actually a MD-12 trijet concept as well. I have one of the press packet photos, but its in a box buried. I'll try to dig it out. The "photo" just took the MD-11 in the purple house colors and extended it and plopped MD-12 on it. It also came with the quad jet photos and profiles as well.
When we talk of McDD doing something that would have stymied Airbus, let's not forget that there was once talk of a DC10 derivative that had two engines! I guess some hotshot decided: "a twin engined widebody - it'll never happen; scrap it!!"
I do recall the MD-12 and I have also wondered what might have been; I certainly agree that if it had gone ahead, the A380 probably wouldn't have gone ahead. I can't help wondering if Boeing had any part in getting it scrapped; presumably any such aircraft would have affected growth plans for the 747 as well. Put it this way, if I were Boeing, I'd have done my best to get it squelched.
Certainly was a pity that they went ahead with the MD11 instead of the '12.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5675 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 21): When we talk of McDD doing something that would have stymied Airbus, let's not forget that there was once talk of a DC10 derivative that had two engines!
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