Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4724 posts, RR: 17 Posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12130 times:
CNN reports that the search for the flight recorders will resume:
Fair use excerpt:
Jean-Paul Troadec, director of the Investigation and Analysis Bureau, told reporters that a new search, approximately 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) off Brazil's northeast coast, will begin in February, according to Agence France-Presse.
The new underwater sweeps will last a maximum three months and involve sonar and robot submarines, he said.
Halophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 623 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11549 times:
Does anyone know if any further debris has washed ashore in Africa or S. America?
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10889 posts, RR: 100 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11418 times:
I hope they find those black boxes. Unlikely they will, but I can hope.
ZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3258 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11336 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6): I hope they find those black boxes. Unlikely they will, but I can hope.
They've found other difficult and non-cooperative targets (Liberty Bell 7, UA 747 cargo door, etc) at great depths...
I'd say it's 50/50...
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RobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3940 posts, RR: 19 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11217 times:
Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time? If so then how will they go about finding it? Surely it will now be on the bottom of the ocean and covered in several inches of sand and that coral type stuff?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31155 posts, RR: 76 Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11166 times:
Quoting RobK (Reply 8): Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time? If so then how will they go about finding it? Surely it will now be on the bottom of the ocean and covered in several inches of sand and that coral type stuff?
There is definitely no coral at the bottom of the central Atlantic, just sand.
The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there. Not going to be an easy task at all.
KiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2044 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11139 times:
Quoting RobK (Reply 8): Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time?
It only lasts a couple of weeks. So they will be relying on some very advanced search equipment and some luck. Seems unlikely but here's hoping. It's one of those accidents where a lot of the mystery will be revealed
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10889 posts, RR: 100 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10948 times:
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 7): They've found other difficult and non-cooperative targets (Liberty Bell 7, UA 747 cargo door, etc) at great depths...
You have a good point. But the water in the region could have moved the plane/parts over a large area.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9): Not going to be an easy task at all.
But in my opinion worth the effort/cost.
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 10): Seems unlikely but here's hoping. It's one of those accidents where a lot of the mystery will be revealed
That is why I'd like to see the black boxes found! Too much mystery!
HotelDJRomeo From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10247 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9): The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there.
Respectfully, there's zero chance that the black box is still emitting any signal.
You're absolutely right that they're designed to last 30 days or more, but that "or more" part might buy you a few extra days or weeks - definitely not into the several months more range.
This search is going to be relying on very accurate/sensitive sonar to find clusters of debris, and then they'll use their robots to take a look and see if there's any useful evidence.
It is going to take a lot of hard work, but hopefully it does turn something up. A lot is riding on it.
VC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2476 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10031 times:
Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2278 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9981 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9): The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there. Not going to be an easy task at all.
I seriously doubt the boxes are still emitting a signal...there's no way...
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9589 times:
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13): Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!
The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10889 posts, RR: 100 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9464 times:
Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 12): You're absolutely right that they're designed to last 30 days or more, but that "or more" part might buy you a few extra days or weeks - definitely not into the several months more range.
First, I agree with you. The black boxes will be dead before the search re-starts.
But if by some miracle those black boxes had brand new batteries in them, they could last 90 to 120 days. (Note: The stars have to align perfectly for that to happen. e.g., the pinger came in at the low end of the power consumption specification, the batteries hold power at the upper end, etc.) They're actually tested in a lab an pulled when 'reasonable expectation' of in use life is < 60 days. (As the real world is far harsher than the lab.)
Then again, if the batteries flooded, they could have failed day 1.
KiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2044 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9082 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15): The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.
They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.
VirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 49 Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8761 times:
There is an historical precedent for data recorders being salvaged long after an accident at sea. In the South African Airways 295 (Helderberg) accident, the CVR was recovered from the Indian Ocean around a year after the accident I believe,using a remotely operated vehicle - have a look at http://www.strumpfer.com/Papers/HelderbergSearch.htm for a discussion of the methodology used in determining the location.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13): Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15): The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17): They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.
There was some discussion of this back when the accident occurred: Why No Transmitting FDR/CVR's? (by TOLtommy Jun 1 2009 in Tech Ops) As I noted at the end of that thread, there is a company in Canada with a product on the market, and Airbus is studying possibilities to reinforce flight data recovery.
V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
GPHOTO From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 819 posts, RR: 27 Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8614 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
I imagine they will be looking for larger chunks of wreckage. Hopefully, the black boxes will either still be in this wreckage or if they have spilled out, they hope they will be nearby. The chances of the locator beacons still working is virtually non-existant.
Jayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1001 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8585 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 16): First, I agree with you. The black boxes will be dead before the search re-starts.
Infact they are dead, because its more than 6 months from the day of tragedy.
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15): The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.
You just said what i was gonna post.
Infact airbus is doing research after AF447 incident about the data being transmitted by satellite to the storage centre.
Its strange that though airplanes have become faster, beautiful and safe, big esp, they are till using the old type black box with just little changes here and there...sad but true...
KingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1278 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8373 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15): The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17): They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.
Perhaps there are security concerns? If the data gets into the wrong hands, you never know... there are crazy people out there
Anyway, I'm gladly surprised that they're going to restart this search. A lot can be learned from this tragic accident.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12595 posts, RR: 64 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8081 times:
While the odds are against them, I'm confident the FDR and CVR will be recovered.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2816 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6907 times:
Surprisingly, private scavengers have been artifact picking at the site of the Titanic which leads me to believe that more of this deep sea equipment exists than we are aware of. Investigators will not only be looking for a small orange box but hopefully a large section of debris with the box ,..a debris field trail...my $$ is on a find.
Petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3239 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6731 times:
Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17): They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.
Neither can I. In an earlier thread someone mentioned that all the datastreams are too much for current satelites and ground stations to handle. Then I suggested to only do so under specific circumstances, for instances when certain systems fail, stress levels exceed certain values or in case of rapid changes in speed / heading / altitude happen. I never got an answer to that one on the original thread. Would something like this work?
Attamottamotta!
25 JoeCanuck: All of the telephone, video and sound you get everyday is streamed via satellite. Doing it from an airplane really shouldn't be an issue. It just hasn
26 HAWK21M: Won't be easy to locate the SSCVR/SSFDR considering the time elapsed & the signal non existant. regds MEL.
27 Fsnuffer: I would think a more practicable solution would be to equip aircraft with a impact sensor like ones used for auto air bags and design the recorders to
28 VirginFlyer: I'm sure it could work, however the trade-off would be a degradation in the robustness of the system. Key events could occur prior to the system bein
29 Aviators99: You could augment the existing technology by streaming the data over the Internet in encrypted format. Using Row 44 (the satellite-tech choice of the
30 Petertenthije: Could be avoided by sending the data of say 30 minutes preceding the trigger. All that data will be in the computer anyway so might as well send it.
31 Denverdanny: What if there's nothing on the black boxes? What if they stopped recording? There a number of accidents where this was the case. We might never know w
32 Readytotaxi: How about something along the lines that submarines have, after a water impact a buoy is released which give a fairly accurate location. Global satell
33 Richierich: I completely agree. I think it needs to be BOTH - current FDR and CVR recorders retained with some streaming data sent from the plane. If nothing els
34 DenverDanny: All of these ideas for a solution to the black box "problem" with this flight have already been brought up in the old AF447 threads. This is just goin
35 Railker: So far the discussion as far as finding them is concerned has been aimed at whether the signal is still operating or not, and how they might find them
36 Revelation: Then maybe AF should be offering a cash reward to those who find the black boxes? Difference is the sub/boat is already in contact with the water so
37 Scramjetter: I agree. If the tail group remained intact until impact then the chances of finding the black boxes are better. The vertical fin was found intact and
38 Soon7x7: Not a bad idea however the existence of discretionary data would no doubt prevent a good idea from being implemented. I'm not saying this in jest but
39 PPVRA: Had the plane disintegrated upon impact, we prob would have seen a lot more floating debris. A single or few large pieces could make this search easi
40 Renfnl: They essentially already do. If eqquiped with and ELT it will transmit once it is submerged in water. I would imagine this aircraft had at least one
41 Haggis79: wrong... virtually all data that revolves around the world every second is sent through high-capacity fiber cables... there's no chance to send that
42 JoeCanuck: Well, at the moment, I'm watching tv in hi def which is coming directly from a satellite. I have hundreds of channels available to me. I have also us
43 Haggis79: don't forget that TV is a broadcasting service - i.e. one sender, same data, multiple recipients. Phone services only use a neglegible bandwidth. You
44 JoeCanuck: Thuraya satellite broadband internet is available throughout asia and africa.
45 Tdscanuck: The guts have changed a lot. They still look pretty much the same (orange shoe-boxed sized thing) but the amount of data has gone up by orders of mag
46 JoeCanuck: Satellite telephone and internet aren't one point broadcasting. Depending on the hardware, both can work very reliably while moving. There are alread
47 Tdscanuck: True. I didn't say it was impossible, just harder than the one-way broadcast problem. Yes, but you rarely have all of them broadcasting at the same t
48 JoeCanuck: There really shouldn't be that much data. If it can be stored on some magnetic tape, (which only exceeds punchcards for data density), it shouldn't ta
49 KiwiinOz: There is also a cost issue to consider. True, most are found, but huge efforts are expended to find these boxes in the small time window available.
50 JoeCanuck: ...but that only happens a couple of times every decade or so. Most boxes and causes are discovered within days of an accident. It's a gamble...is it
52 Denverdanny: It's a good point. The few times that it happens, would it justify the expense? I don't think so. The cost of the search is expensive, but aren't the
53 2175301: So why are they doing another search? I see two possibilities. 1) Upon detailed review of the previous search data - there are hints of possible wreck
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though its rare.
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But in my opinion worth the effort/cost.
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