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Search To Resume For AF447  
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 12906 times:

CNN reports that the search for the flight recorders will resume:

Fair use excerpt:

Jean-Paul Troadec, director of the Investigation and Analysis Bureau, told reporters that a new search, approximately 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) off Brazil's northeast coast, will begin in February, according to Agence France-Presse.

The new underwater sweeps will last a maximum three months and involve sonar and robot submarines, he said.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...gation/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8416 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 12858 times:
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Sky News has been saying March all day. Either way, what's the reason for the delay?


After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 12808 times:

i hope they find her this time.
Its very disheartening to know that even in 2009 there are planes like A330 crashing... Sad though its rare.



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 12811 times:

Weather conditions and ocean currents perhaps?


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 12706 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 3):
Weather conditions and ocean currents perhaps?

As far as I know, right around this time of year is about the worse time as far as ocean conditions go. I'm not sure by when things improve, though.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHalophila From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 643 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12325 times:

Does anyone know if any further debris has washed ashore in Africa or S. America?


Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12194 times:
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I hope they find those black boxes. Unlikely they will, but I can hope.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12112 times:
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Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 6):
I hope they find those black boxes. Unlikely they will, but I can hope.

They've found other difficult and non-cooperative targets (Liberty Bell 7, UA 747 cargo door, etc) at great depths...

I'd say it's 50/50...



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User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11993 times:

Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time? If so then how will they go about finding it? Surely it will now be on the bottom of the ocean and covered in several inches of sand and that coral type stuff?

R


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11942 times:



Quoting RobK (Reply 8):
Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time? If so then how will they go about finding it? Surely it will now be on the bottom of the ocean and covered in several inches of sand and that coral type stuff?

There is definitely no coral at the bottom of the central Atlantic, just sand.

The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there. Not going to be an easy task at all.



a.
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11915 times:



Quoting RobK (Reply 8):
Didn't someone say that the signal emitted by the blackbox only lasts a shortish period of time?

It only lasts a couple of weeks. So they will be relying on some very advanced search equipment and some luck. Seems unlikely but here's hoping. It's one of those accidents where a lot of the mystery will be revealed


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11724 times:
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Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 7):
They've found other difficult and non-cooperative targets (Liberty Bell 7, UA 747 cargo door, etc) at great depths...

You have a good point. But the water in the region could have moved the plane/parts over a large area.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Not going to be an easy task at all.

 checkmark  But in my opinion worth the effort/cost.

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 10):
Seems unlikely but here's hoping. It's one of those accidents where a lot of the mystery will be revealed

That is why I'd like to see the black boxes found! Too much mystery!

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineHotelDJRomeo From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11023 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there.

Respectfully, there's zero chance that the black box is still emitting any signal.

You're absolutely right that they're designed to last 30 days or more, but that "or more" part might buy you a few extra days or weeks - definitely not into the several months more range.

This search is going to be relying on very accurate/sensitive sonar to find clusters of debris, and then they'll use their robots to take a look and see if there's any useful evidence.

It is going to take a lot of hard work, but hopefully it does turn something up. A lot is riding on it.



Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2793 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10807 times:
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Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10757 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
The signal last at least 30 days, but it can last longer. So it is possible that the signal is still out there. Not going to be an easy task at all.

I seriously doubt the boxes are still emitting a signal...there's no way...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10365 times:



Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!

The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.

Tom.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10240 times:
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Quoting HotelDJRomeo (Reply 12):
You're absolutely right that they're designed to last 30 days or more, but that "or more" part might buy you a few extra days or weeks - definitely not into the several months more range.

First, I agree with you. The black boxes will be dead before the search re-starts.

But if by some miracle those black boxes had brand new batteries in them, they could last 90 to 120 days. (Note: The stars have to align perfectly for that to happen. e.g., the pinger came in at the low end of the power consumption specification, the batteries hold power at the upper end, etc.) They're actually tested in a lab an pulled when 'reasonable expectation' of in use life is < 60 days. (As the real world is far harsher than the lab.)

Then again, if the batteries flooded, they could have failed day 1.  Sad

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineKiwiinOz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9858 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15):
The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.

They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9537 times:

There is an historical precedent for data recorders being salvaged long after an accident at sea. In the South African Airways 295 (Helderberg) accident, the CVR was recovered from the Indian Ocean around a year after the accident I believe,using a remotely operated vehicle - have a look at http://www.strumpfer.com/Papers/HelderbergSearch.htm for a discussion of the methodology used in determining the location.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
Given this particular crash and how imortant the information it may contain (one of the most mysterious airplane incients ever) is there not another back up solution to the "black box" known of or being considered? the technology must exisit!



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15):
The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.

There was some discussion of this back when the accident occurred: Why No Transmitting FDR/CVR's? (by TOLtommy Jun 1 2009 in Tech Ops) As I noted at the end of that thread, there is a company in Canada with a product on the market, and Airbus is studying possibilities to reinforce flight data recovery.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineGPHOTO From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 827 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9390 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

I imagine they will be looking for larger chunks of wreckage. Hopefully, the black boxes will either still be in this wreckage or if they have spilled out, they hope they will be nearby. The chances of the locator beacons still working is virtually non-existant.

Best regards,

Jim



Erm, is this thing on?
User currently offlineJayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9361 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 16):
First, I agree with you. The black boxes will be dead before the search re-starts.

Infact they are dead, because its more than 6 months from the day of tragedy.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15):
The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.

You just said what i was gonna post.
Infact airbus is doing research after AF447 incident about the data being transmitted by satellite to the storage centre.
Its strange that though airplanes have become faster, beautiful and safe, big esp, they are till using the old type black box with just little changes here and there...sad but true...



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1294 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9149 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15):
The idea of streaming data off the airplane has been bandied about, off and on, even before this crash. That's really the only solution to the black box problem; store the data off the airplane. However, there are major problems with moving that much data off all airplanes all the time. It would need to be some subset; something more than the ACARS messages that were received, but not as much as the complete FDR record.



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.

Perhaps there are security concerns? If the data gets into the wrong hands, you never know... there are crazy people out there  boxedin 

Anyway, I'm gladly surprised that they're going to restart this search. A lot can be learned from this tragic accident.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13255 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8857 times:
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While the odds are against them, I'm confident the FDR and CVR will be recovered.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7683 times:

Surprisingly, private scavengers have been artifact picking at the site of the Titanic which leads me to believe that more of this deep sea equipment exists than we are aware of. Investigators will not only be looking for a small orange box but hopefully a large section of debris with the box ,..a debris field trail...my $$ is on a find.

User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3309 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7507 times:



Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
They could at least stream voice. Data transfer probably not at this point in time due to the volume, but I don't understand why voice can't get streamed.

Neither can I. In an earlier thread someone mentioned that all the datastreams are too much for current satelites and ground stations to handle. Then I suggested to only do so under specific circumstances, for instances when certain systems fail, stress levels exceed certain values or in case of rapid changes in speed / heading / altitude happen. I never got an answer to that one on the original thread. Would something like this work?



Attamottamotta!
25 JoeCanuck : All of the telephone, video and sound you get everyday is streamed via satellite. Doing it from an airplane really shouldn't be an issue. It just hasn
26 HAWK21M : Won't be easy to locate the SSCVR/SSFDR considering the time elapsed & the signal non existant. regds MEL.
27 Fsnuffer : I would think a more practicable solution would be to equip aircraft with a impact sensor like ones used for auto air bags and design the recorders to
28 VirginFlyer : I'm sure it could work, however the trade-off would be a degradation in the robustness of the system. Key events could occur prior to the system bein
29 Aviators99 : You could augment the existing technology by streaming the data over the Internet in encrypted format. Using Row 44 (the satellite-tech choice of the
30 Petertenthije : Could be avoided by sending the data of say 30 minutes preceding the trigger. All that data will be in the computer anyway so might as well send it.
31 Denverdanny : What if there's nothing on the black boxes? What if they stopped recording? There a number of accidents where this was the case. We might never know w
32 Readytotaxi : How about something along the lines that submarines have, after a water impact a buoy is released which give a fairly accurate location. Global satell
33 Richierich : I completely agree. I think it needs to be BOTH - current FDR and CVR recorders retained with some streaming data sent from the plane. If nothing els
34 DenverDanny : All of these ideas for a solution to the black box "problem" with this flight have already been brought up in the old AF447 threads. This is just goin
35 Railker : So far the discussion as far as finding them is concerned has been aimed at whether the signal is still operating or not, and how they might find them
36 Revelation : Then maybe AF should be offering a cash reward to those who find the black boxes? Difference is the sub/boat is already in contact with the water so
37 Scramjetter : I agree. If the tail group remained intact until impact then the chances of finding the black boxes are better. The vertical fin was found intact and
38 Soon7x7 : Not a bad idea however the existence of discretionary data would no doubt prevent a good idea from being implemented. I'm not saying this in jest but
39 PPVRA : Had the plane disintegrated upon impact, we prob would have seen a lot more floating debris. A single or few large pieces could make this search easi
40 Renfnl : They essentially already do. If eqquiped with and ELT it will transmit once it is submerged in water. I would imagine this aircraft had at least one
41 Haggis79 : wrong... virtually all data that revolves around the world every second is sent through high-capacity fiber cables... there's no chance to send that
42 JoeCanuck : Well, at the moment, I'm watching tv in hi def which is coming directly from a satellite. I have hundreds of channels available to me. I have also us
43 Haggis79 : don't forget that TV is a broadcasting service - i.e. one sender, same data, multiple recipients. Phone services only use a neglegible bandwidth. You
44 JoeCanuck : Thuraya satellite broadband internet is available throughout asia and africa.
45 Tdscanuck : The guts have changed a lot. They still look pretty much the same (orange shoe-boxed sized thing) but the amount of data has gone up by orders of mag
46 JoeCanuck : Satellite telephone and internet aren't one point broadcasting. Depending on the hardware, both can work very reliably while moving. There are alread
47 Tdscanuck : True. I didn't say it was impossible, just harder than the one-way broadcast problem. Yes, but you rarely have all of them broadcasting at the same t
48 JoeCanuck : There really shouldn't be that much data. If it can be stored on some magnetic tape, (which only exceeds punchcards for data density), it shouldn't ta
49 KiwiinOz : There is also a cost issue to consider. True, most are found, but huge efforts are expended to find these boxes in the small time window available.
50 JoeCanuck : ...but that only happens a couple of times every decade or so. Most boxes and causes are discovered within days of an accident. It's a gamble...is it
51 Airbuffalo : Exactly once.
52 Denverdanny : It's a good point. The few times that it happens, would it justify the expense? I don't think so. The cost of the search is expensive, but aren't the
53 2175301 : So why are they doing another search? I see two possibilities. 1) Upon detailed review of the previous search data - there are hints of possible wreck
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