Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
9J, Union Differ On Cause Of Flight 3407 Crash  
User currently offlineKBUF From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6535 times:

Colgan Air says the probable cause of February's fatal crash in Clarence Center that claimed 50 lives was the pilots' "loss of situational awareness and failure to follow Colgan Air training and procedures, which led to a loss of control of the aircraft."

The regional airline company, in a 66-page report to the National Transportation Safety Board, also cited as contributing to the crash the lack of low-speed warnings in the cockpit instrument panel on the Bombardier Dash 8-Q400 turboprop.

But the Air Line Pilots Association, the union representing Colgan pilots, said in its 62- page report to the safety board that pilot error did not cause the worst aviation crash in Western New York.

Rather, the pilots union said, a combination of factors caused the crash. And it cited Colgan for failing to adequately prepare the pilots for the conditions that faced them Feb. 12, when the aircraft went into an aerodynamic stall and spun out of control.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/893451.html

IMO, I would have to go with a combination of the two. While I would most certainly agree that 9J's training was rather inadequate, you would think that Capt. Renslow would've at least known to push down on the controls rather than pull up.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Fast
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kryst - YXUphoto



[Edited 2009-12-14 20:56:15]


"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence will be to win a Stanley Cup."-Terry Pegula, February 22, 2011
93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6443 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Ironic, considering this was the whipping post ALPA kept using to gain support for their 1,200 flight hour minimum for captains and FO's proposal.

Quoting KBUF (Thread starter):


IMO, I would have to go with a combination of the two. While I would most certainly agree that 9J's training was rather inadequate, you would think that Capt. Renslow would've at least known to push down on the controls rather than pull up.



Quoting KBUF (Thread starter):
pilot error did not cause the worst aviation crash in Western New York.

So random banter during what should have been a sterile flight deck had nothing to do with it? And the fact that the captain failed numerous tests and checkrides, and lied about his past history when he was hired, had no impact on the accident? And the fact that the FO decided it would be wise to ski the night before and to take a transcon flight right before duty time had no impact either?

MANY other pilots in their shoes would have been able to pull off a safe landing, so it's certainly fair to blame these two.



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6383 times:



Quoting KBUF (Thread starter):
Rather, the pilots union said, a combination of factors caused the crash. And it cited Colgan for failing to adequately prepare the pilots for the conditions that faced them Feb. 12, when the aircraft went into an aerodynamic stall and spun out of control.

I don't recall Colgan pilots or ALPA asking for more training before the crash.


User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6262 times:

I see the company's position on this, I'm not saying I agree or disagee with Colgan blaming the pilots, but I see where they're coming from.

As of now, for Colgan its all about protecting their certificate and their contracts with major carriers.

I guess the pilots become indespensable when it comes to protecting a company's certificate


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 794 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6159 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
MANY other pilots in their shoes would have been able to pull off a safe landing, so it's certainly fair to blame these two.

Many other pilots would have had a more robust training program and actual experience in icing conditions.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 2):

I don't recall Colgan pilots or ALPA asking for more training before the crash.

You wouldn't hear ALPAs requests for more training. It is quite common for ALPA to have a pilot training committee at each airline for which it provides representation. This committee is made of line pilots with a flight training background who deal with the training department on a regular basis reviewing training policy. All to often the company will find a way to cut some form of training to save costs while still giving the illusion of living up to regulations. The ALPA training committee will fight it by making recommendations but in the end the company usually gets its way.

A great example of this is Distance Learning or Computer Based Training for systems training. Nearly every airline has gone to CBT systems training where the pilot follows a self taught CBT program with a small follow up in procedures training. These programs have replaced instructor lead classroom training to reduce cost. ALPA training committees fought CBT vehemently but lost the battle to CBT which provides a much lower quality of training. None of this made it to the media however as it was fought in house.

Had Colgan had a robust classroom training environment where the pilots were actually taught the aircraft systems and had Colgan provided stick push training so the pilot actually saw and felt what a stall felt like and what a tail stall feels like as opposed to a wing stall, this accident would not have happened and we wouldn't be reading about it now.

Colgan and ALPA have provided their positions to the NTSB on this. The board will have their official findings ready in the coming months. I think both Colgan and ALPA bring up good points, but in the end neither really matters. The NTSB will take it into account but their finding will be the only findings that matter.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6095 times:



Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 3):
I guess the pilots become indespensable when it comes to protecting a company's certificate

What if 9L is right?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6052 times:



Quoting KBUF (Thread starter):
I would most certainly agree that 9J's training was rather inadequate,

Have you gone through their training? What about their training syllabus was inadequate?

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
So random banter during what should have been a sterile flight deck had nothing to do with it? And the fact that the captain failed numerous tests and checkrides, and lied about his past history when he was hired, had no impact on the accident? And the fact that the FO decided it would be wise to ski the night before and to take a transcon flight right before duty time had no impact either?

Exactly. You can't legislate professionalism.

Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 3):
I guess the pilots become indespensable when it comes to protecting a company's certificate

How so? So Colgan is supposed to sit there and say "blame us, the pilots did nothing wrong"? Please. They're calling it like they see it. The pilots in this instance made a mistake that cost them, and everyone else, their lives.

Quoting 727forever (Reply 4):
Many other pilots would have had a more robust training program and actual experience in icing conditions.

Such as...? Find me a major airline training program where the pilots are given "actual experience in icing conditions". Not simulator time, but "actual experience".

Quoting 727forever (Reply 4):
You wouldn't hear ALPAs requests for more training. It is quite common for ALPA to have a pilot training committee at each airline for which it provides representation. This committee is made of line pilots with a flight training background who deal with the training department on a regular basis reviewing training policy. All to often the company will find a way to cut some form of training to save costs while still giving the illusion of living up to regulations. The ALPA training committee will fight it by making recommendations but in the end the company usually gets its way.

My understanding was that ALPA wasn't officially on the property at the time, and the the pilots weren't organized prior to that. They voted on 12/20/08 to join ALPA.


User currently offlineNetjetsINTL From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6001 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
What if 9L is right?

don't know who is right and who is wrong, not sure who's fault it is or if is anybody's fault. All I'm saying is Colgan is trying to protect their certificate at this point, (damage control)


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5994 times:



Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 7):
All I'm saying is Colgan is trying to protect their certificate at this point, (damage control)

Making that statement presupposes that they are wrong.

Maybe they are simply trying to tell the truth.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5908 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
Maybe they are simply trying to tell the truth.

If you think that Colgan's purpose in putting this out isn't to cover themselves, I have some oceanfront property in West Virginia to sell you. Pretty much all they say is "these are our policies, the crew didn't follow them, therefore the crew is at fault." They never mention the possibility that some of those policies aren't what they should be.

Fortunately, we have an independent NTSB who will make the only determination that counts.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5900 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
If you think that Colgan's purpose in putting this out isn't to cover themselves, I have some oceanfront property in West Virginia to sell you.

It's important to separate the two parts of 9L's submission: the facts and the conclusions.

I hope we can all agree that 9L isn't lying in the factual part of the submission.

Obviously, the conclusion is seen through their lens, but that's a different matter.

Implying that the factual submission is incorrect is a much different cup of tea from taking issue with the conclusions they draw from those facts.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5885 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Obviously, the conclusion is seen through their lens

Their own incredibly biased lens, yes.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Implying that the factual submission is incorrect is a much different cup of tea from taking issue with the conclusions they draw from those facts.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Colgan has lied in the report.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5854 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I don't think anyone has suggested that Colgan has lied in the report.

I read this statement to suggest as much:

Quoting NetjetsINTL (Reply 3):
As of now, for Colgan its all about protecting their certificate and their contracts with major carriers.

Now, 9L didn't adequately answer the question of whether following their policies would have prevented the accident. That may be because they don't like the answer to that question and are thus covering themselves - a perfectly reasonable move given what they knew ALPA would say. It may be something else, though.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5839 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
I read this statement to suggest as much:

I don't, and I agree with that statement. Colgan will submit the facts that they can use to support their position, and will simply leave out or play down the facts that they can't.

And ALPA will do much of the same, although it's harder for them to do that since it's clear that pilot error was involved. ALPA will try and press the contributing factors, and Colgan will try and downplay them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5824 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
And ALPA will do much of the same, although it's harder for them to do that since it's clear that pilot error was involved.

They've had plenty of practice. It's never the pilots' fault, no matter how clear the case. See, e.g., the OH accident in LEX or 9E 3701.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5766 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
They've had plenty of practice. It's never the pilots' fault, no matter how clear the case. See, e.g., the OH accident in LEX or 9E 3701.

ALPA is biased, sure (though I would point out that the NTSB put the responsibility for 3701 entirely on the pilots, and put most of the responsibility for 5191 on the pilots). That doesn't mean that Colgan's intentions are entirely pure - if they have to throw a couple of pilots under the bus to cover for their own subpar policies and procedures, they'll do it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5682 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting 727forever (Reply 4):
Had Colgan had a robust classroom training environment where the pilots were actually taught the aircraft systems and had Colgan provided stick push training so the pilot actually saw and felt what a stall felt like and what a tail stall feels like as opposed to a wing stall, this accident would not have happened and we wouldn't be reading about it now.

Retrospectively, it's easy to say that hypothetically, that one extra thing may have prevented the accident... however, there are many "small things" that COULD at some point cause issues down the road, and it's impossible to predict which "small thing" will cause the next accident; the only solution, by your standard, is to implement all of the small fixes - at which point flying will become so expensive that many will decide to drive instead, thus significantly increasing transportation-related fatalities.

Life is all about taking risks, and there is certainly such a thing as being "too safe."

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
They've had plenty of practice. It's never the pilots' fault, no matter how clear the case. See, e.g., the OH accident in LEX or 9E 3701

Of all the things ALPA has done, nothing has sickened me more than when they tried to play the 9E 3701 pilots as heroes who "sacrificed themselves to save the lives of many homeowners", suggesting that they purposefully crashed in the manner they did to avoid hitting houses.



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5620 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 16):
Of all the things ALPA has done, nothing has sickened me more than when they tried to play the 9E 3701 pilots as heroes who "sacrificed themselves to save the lives of many homeowners", suggesting that they purposefully crashed in the manner they did to avoid hitting houses.

 checkmark 

ALPA needs to do a better job of picking its battles.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
That doesn't mean that Colgan's intentions are entirely pure - if they have to throw a couple of pilots under the bus to cover for their own subpar policies and procedures, they'll do it.

It doesn't. I just think that if ALPA and the carriers tried to collaborate rather than striving for as much acrimony as possible, a lot of things - including crash investigations - would work better.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5588 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
It doesn't. I just think that if ALPA and the carriers tried to collaborate rather than striving for as much acrimony as possible, a lot of things - including crash investigations - would work better.

They probably would play nicer if there weren't so many f****** lawyers in the world just itching to sue somebody.

The simple fact is that the truth will most likely be found somewhere in the middle. I definitely think that there was pilot error in this accident but I'm not going to believe everything Colgan says because they are looking to cover themselves. They will not hesitate to throw the pilots under the bus if it saves the company a lawsuit or reduces the settlement that they have to pay. I also believe that they will actively try and place as much of the blame on the pilots that they can and deflect attention away from themselves in order to save face. Whether they are right or wrong they will do this so it will be hard to discern the truth from the spin.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5570 times:



Quoting KBUF (Thread starter):
IMO, I would have to go with a combination of the two. While I would most certainly agree that 9J's training was rather inadequate, you would think that Capt. Renslow would've at least known to push down on the controls rather than pull up.

That's not how you're taught stall recovery in a Dash 8.

Hit the TOGA button, max power, pitch to the command bars and power out of the stall. Retract the flaps to 15, then gear up at positive rate of climb. Nowhere are you taught to lower the nose in that airplane.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7488 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5511 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
So random banter during what should have been a sterile flight deck had nothing to do with it?

Until the NW pilots overflew their destination while working on laptop's which the company policy prohibited we would have said such things did not happen.
I await the official decision but I'm sure that random banter in what should be sterile cockpits take place every day all over the world, including pilots sleeping in vans in LAX parking lots to commuting to work every day via plane, it happens all the time with no accidents.
Now what does that mean?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8707 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5478 times:

Well, Colgan failed in the following sense. They staffed the aircraft with 2 cockpit crew members, neither of which probably should have been there at that time. Ultimately it is Colgan's job to find pilots who can safely handle the situation. In this case the crew was not up to the task. ALPA is agreeing that (in several ways) the situation was unsafe, primarily because the crew was not properly screened and/or trained, or even very "aware."

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5419 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 18):
They probably would play nicer if there weren't so many f****** lawyers in the world just itching to sue somebody.

Right problem, wrong solution, I think.

Congress could simply prohibit the use of any statements made in the course of an NTSB investigation in civil suits. The democrats won't do it, but the Supreme Court has held that they could if they wanted to.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5345 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting NorCal (Reply 18):

The simple fact is that the truth will most likely be found somewhere in the middle.

So.... I say 4 + 4 = 8, and you say 4 + 4 = 10.... does that mean the answer is really 9?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 20):


Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
So random banter during what should have been a sterile flight deck had nothing to do with it?

Until the NW pilots overflew their destination while working on laptop's which the company policy prohibited we would have said such things did not happen.

No, we all realize that sterile cockpit rules are broken; however, those rules were implemented for a reason, and just because they're broken all the time doesn't excuse any pilots who cause an accident due to breach of said rules.

I can understand two pilots making banter while stuck in a holding stack at 7,000 ft. for an hour... but when you're in icing conditions, there is NO excuse for this.

In his quest to seduce/reproduce with the FO, the captain invited Darwin to work his magic.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 20):
I'm sure that random banter in what should be sterile cockpits take place every day all over the world, including pilots sleeping in vans in LAX parking lots

What?? What does a pilot sleeping in a van have to do with sterile cockpits??

Quoting Flighty (Reply 21):
Well, Colgan failed in the following sense. They staffed the aircraft with 2 cockpit crew members, neither of which probably should have been there at that time. Ultimately it is Colgan's job to find pilots who can safely handle the situation. In this case the crew was not up to the task. ALPA is agreeing that (in several ways) the situation was unsafe, primarily because the crew was not properly screened and/or trained, or even very "aware."

It's all about appreciable risk.... make the standards too tough, and ALPA will start crying that pilots spend $100k+ for training, only to be shot down by "unfair hiring standards" and the like.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Congress could simply prohibit the use of any statements made in the course of an NTSB investigation in civil suits. The democrats won't do it, but the Supreme Court has held that they could if they wanted to.

I thought there were already restrictions about NTSB investigations being used for civil suits? Maybe I misread what you suggested though? I agree that there needs to be thick line to prevent conflicts of interests.



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23218 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5327 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 23):
I thought there were already restrictions about NTSB investigations being used for civil suits?

The Board reports themselves, yes, but AFAIK not statements made by parties to an investigation in the course of the investigation (e.g. Colgan).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 CatIII : I asked it in an earlier post, but how were they not properly trained? According to whom?
26 Par13del : Nothing, just something else that can be thrown into the mix if an airline does crash, like saterile cockpits, commuting to work, having laptops etc.
27 FlyASAGuy2005 : Rubbish. There is no training to prove this. Plus, simple airmanship will tech you to not push over the nose so close to the ground.
28 NorCal : It's not a math problem which only has one answer. It is far more complicated than that which is why the NTSB lists multiple factors in crashes. You
29 Mir : It would be great if it worked that way. But right now, both ALPA and the carriers view things as a zero-sum game. One of the two parties is going to
30 HotelDJRomeo : ...but to play devil's advocate a little: Which part of the procedure did the pilot's follow? Certainly not all of it, or at least the execution was
31 Cubsrule : The public acrimony is largely one-sided. Carriers are not putting up billboards criticizing ALPA. The private acrimony is a different matter.
32 DashTrash : Could be. Every big airplane I've flown has a similar stall recovery technique. I think it has more to do with available power as opposed to what is
33 Nwarooster : Pilots are disposable when they are dead and can not defend themselves. Regional Airline pilots are short on experience and the regional airlines are
34 UALWN : Let's see whether the third time is a charm. I've posted twice now that I find these (true) statements made in now-deleted posts hard to reconcile: *
35 Cubsrule : Here's a repost of what I've posted without quoting deleted posts... Here's a somewhat more off the wall proposal: require that if a pilot lives in ba
36 727forever : [Mir, re: tail stall recovery] If you recall, there was a several second delay in the application of power. My guess is after beginning the tail stall
37 Khobar : If the pilots are responsible for the crash, Colgan's intentions are irrelevant. Doesn't mean anything. If there is banter where there should be none
38 727forever : Many of the Legacy carriers do this if the pilot moves to the new base. Most Regionals do not do this. Of the ones that do, it is always a contractua
39 Cubsrule : But would they have made that choice? That's a tough question. If it's true - and I think it is - that you can't fix stupid, stopping the race to the
40 DashTrash : "Pulling back on the stick" is rather vague. The recovery says to pitch to the command bars after going to max power. Not to pull the yoke into your
41 727forever : We don't know for sure, but reason would show they would have. Nobody really wants to stay up all night taking the freighter to work. You feel like c
42 Cubsrule : Reason would also show that you don't go skiing for a day when you are sick and have to commute six hours to work the next day. I maintain that you c
43 NorCal : I don't think anyone at DALPA or any other major pilot union expected regionals to grow the way that they have. I doubt many at DALPA thought that 50
44 Post contains links Mir : The FO said on the CVR tape that she didn't want to commute forever. I think that if she had had the option and it had made financial sense, she woul
45 Cubsrule : Agreed - but then again, had she lived in Newark and gone skiing the day before, she might have been just as spent the day of the flight. The defense
46 UALWN : Has it been established that she was already sick prior to going skiing?
47 Cubsrule : I don't think it's been established, at least not publicly - though the NTSB report will probably say. That said, I'm usually pretty tired after a da
48 NorCal : You make it sound easy. ALPA doesn't drag out negotiations because they feel like it. Airline management does that because they want to keep the stat
49 NorCal : She probably had a really easy time falling asleep on the red eye then. Ignore the skiing, she still would have been on that red eye anyways because
50 Cubsrule : Airline Chapter 11s going forward are going to be unlike what we've seen in the past. Once airlines get in, the ability to rewrite executory contract
51 NorCal : Well if she bummed around the house all day she might not have been able to sleep on the red eye. Skiing might have tired her out enough where she wo
52 Cubsrule : All I can say is what I said before. They've done so many other things that aren't in pilots' interest that I don't see why this would be different.
53 JBirdAV8r : To expound on that: Stick shaker is different than stick pusher. DashTrash mentioned that proper recovery from stick shaker is max power, pitch for t
54 Flighty : If she could not perform her job adequately she should have been fired. If she did not find the pay adequate, she should have quit. At least her own
55 Kaiarahi : According to the testimony at the initial hearing, Colgan's training did not cover the shaker (except for a verbal explanation). And it wasn't just r
56 Mir : This assumes that she found the pay unsafe, which is quite a stretch. And, of course, if the captain had performed the proper stall recovery (or perh
57 NorCal : Colgan has no policy stating that a crew has to be in domicile a certain time period before duty in. Like all carriers they are expected to show up r
58 UALWN : Then, why did you write this? That's where her parents live. Honestly, skiing is not so tiresome, particularly at her age. It is. According to a post
59 Mir : Exactly. Let's say for the sake of argument that she did think that her level of compensation was unsafe. If she had quit, would the company have cha
60 Flighty : Nor al, my solution is indeed that the FO should follow regulations and be well rested or else absatin from entering the cockpit. I am not a peer to j
61 Cubsrule : What this comment misses, I think, is that for someone who is from, for instance, Richmond (not an expensive city at all), it may not be an unsafe le
62 JoeCanuck : I would think that since a stall is precipitated by a too high angle of attack, 'pitch to the command bars' would probably require a push, at least m
63 Cubsrule : I think it's even larger than the company, though (not that 9L is faultless by any means). The commuting issues and the fact that the captain was ine
64 UALWN : This is an assumption, and you didn't say it was an assumption. You are talking about somebody who died at age 24. I think it would be appropriate to
65 Kaiarahi : And in fact, the evidence at the initial hearing was that it is almost impossible to induce a tail stall on a Q400.
66 VC10DC10 : Do you have a source to justify this assertion? It certainly doesn't seem to be common knowledge.
67 Cubsrule : I'd agree if it made a difference, but it doesn't. She chose to ski. She chose to fly sick. Whether she chose to ski sick or not, she unquestionably
68 HotelDJRomeo : Remember though that you can effectively decrease your angle of attack just by adding power - and step 1 in the Q400 recovery is to hit TOGA & apply
69 JoeCanuck : Even a 172 stall recovery calls for, among other things, adding power. Pulling back on the yoke is how we enter stalls and spins. Power on spins are v
70 Mir : No pilot is perfect, either, but that doesn't seem to stop some from being quite harsh on them. Absolutely not. You can put money on the fact that sh
71 Cubsrule : No. When she took Flight 3407, she was not rested and ready for work. I have no idea how she showed up in Newark.
72 Mir : I couldn't find that line anywhere in the CVR transcript. Do you have a link to where you got it from? -Mir
73 Post contains links Cubsrule : Yeah; Here is a link. It's not the NTSB's site, but it's also a lot faster than the NTSB's site. The quote is on page 25 of the pdf, page 12-25. The t
74 Mir : Ok, I was looking at a different version. I still don't agree that her being sick means that she wasn't rested, or that she wasn't capable of doing he
75 Cubsrule : I would agree except for (maybe) the comment later on about it not being her day with the radio calls. That's a situation that most of us who have an
76 CatIII : I'm not going to let that one pass. As opposed to the social policies of Europe? And unlike your country, our country doesn't legislate or regulate s
77 NorCal : Schedulers don't like it when you call in with the sniffles. You get a lot of grief and possibly fired if you call in sick too many times. That is a
78 CatIII : But it does underscore what a joke the 1500 hour requirement Congress wants to mandate is. She had 1600 hours, and it didn't solve anything.[Edited 2
79 Cubsrule : The sniffles also didn't cause her to say she wouldn't have come in if she felt the way she did when she left home. It's not just pay, though. The ca
80 Mir : Especially since other than that one slip (which has either happened to all of us already or will at some point in the future), she was doing fine wi
81 Cubsrule : Are all experienced captains good with new f/os? My recollection is that the OW overrun in SJU a few years ago was an experienced captain with a very
82 Mir : The FO was new - the captain was fairly experienced, but I wouldn't say extremely so (3800+ hours). But I didn't see any major deficiencies in the co
83 UALWN : Which was exactly my point. As far as I know all western European countries are capitalist, Canada too, and they all regulate sick days. In this (and
84 Cubsrule : In the environment, no, none at all. But wasn't poor CRM (not taking over the landing sooner) the cause? Does that make one or the other "right" or "
85 DashTrash : Doesn't seem to work here, let alone the harm its doing to the profession. The cockpit of an airliner is no place to receive flying lessons. When you
86 UALWN : I wasn't claiming one was better than the other. I was just pointing out that sick leave regulation has nothing to do with socialism, since it exists
87 NorCal : She didn't really have a choice because Colgan has a punitive absence policy. Not entirely because an FO that did 6 months of training and got 200 ho
88 Mir : I agree. If the FO on my flight has never actually seen ice, that's fine, just as long as they know the theoretical concepts behind icing and they kn
89 NorCal : Yeah but being an FO doesn't involve a lot of decision making or as much responsibility as being captain. When you're the captain the buck stops with
90 Mir : Because when you talk about a frozen ATP outside the US, it means that all the requirements have been met except for the hour requirements. Once thos
91 Cubsrule : Absolutely. Regardless of how punitive the policy was, it was her certificate. The policy should probably be addressed, but NOTHING can compensate fo
92 DashTrash : Problem is the "it won't happen to me" mentality. When you work for a company that has a crappy sick call policy, you suck it up and fly sick. You're
93 Mir : And let's face it - it doesn't happen 99.9% of the time. So if the choice is between that or ending your career, is it that hard to see why people do
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
El Al Upgrades @ JFK On Day Of Flight? posted Sun Dec 24 2006 08:38:18 by JetboyTWA
Cause Of Atlantic Airways Crash. posted Tue Oct 17 2006 17:26:54 by CPHGuard
Northwest, Pilots Differ On Value Of Cuts posted Tue Jan 24 2006 21:44:17 by KarlB737
When Did AS Start E-mailing On Day Of Flight? posted Mon Dec 20 2004 16:18:48 by FlyingNanook
FR: Why Do Taxes Vary Depending On Time Of Flight? posted Sun Aug 10 2003 12:14:38 by Pe@rson
SQ Crash On Anniversary Of Egypt Air Crash. posted Wed Nov 1 2000 04:08:37 by Dazed767
The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv posted Sun Feb 6 2005 03:43:58 by Hawk44
Crash Of Flight 191...on History Chan. Now. posted Mon Jul 26 2004 02:06:47 by Jamesag96
Crash Of Flight 111-ON PBS 2/17 posted Fri Feb 13 2004 04:16:47 by Neilalp
Cause Of Egyptair Flight 990 Crash posted Wed Mar 21 2001 17:38:42 by Arsenal@LHR