-According to a statement signed by flight attendant Barbara Logan, she called the cockpit around 8:15 p.m. CDT to find out when they would be landing. She was told they would land around 12 Greenwich Mean Time. "I said I did not know the time — he said I was hosed and hung up."-
-Cole has cited his reliance on Cheney as the pilot in charge as a mitigating factor in his case.-
1. Under these circumstances, why would he tell the FA she was hosed?
2. How common is it to blame the PIC for something like this? Seems cheap...
3. What would have been the best way to handle this situation? They appear unprofessional.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 20319 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17557 times:
Why the headline? Is it your opinion that the PIC is some sort of innocent victim here, or a scapegoat?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3051 posts, RR: 19 Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17394 times:
Both of em should be fired. It's unnecessary that the company (or public) make examples out of them but what they did was as close to a textbook definition of negligence as you can get.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 13035 posts, RR: 55 Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17299 times:
You know, policies and procedures are there for a reason. I've disagreed with various company policies where I've worked, but if you do disagree then you file a grievance (or suggestion or whatever it's called) with management and explain why you think the policy should be changed. You do NOT simply violate the policy.
NW has a policy in place that taking out your own laptop while flying a plane is not OK. The pilots decided that they could violate that policy "just this once" and nobody would be the wiser. In other words, they took a risk. I'm sure this happens on a lot of flights and nothing ever goes wrong.
But this time it did. And when you take that risk and suffer a negative outcome, then you have to accept the consequences. The only person throwing this pilot under the bus is the pilot himself.
Njxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17231 times:
I was really under the assumption that most pilots have a bond, and tend to work together, and suffer together. These two didn't work together, and now they aren't even suffering together. So much for teamwork, much less CRM.
It is my opinion that these two screwed up huge, and I agree with them being fired. I don't fly for a living, but when I'm out of contact with ATC for 15 minutes, I'm starting to wonder, and by 20 I check in with them. How could this happen on a commercial flight with pilots that do this for a living.
Is it possible something else was going on in there? Any theories?
Stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1475 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17181 times:
Well I guess they won't have to worry about DL new bidding process anymore
NWADC10LUVER From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17074 times:
My thoughts are as follows:
It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
What does ATL FAA offices have reason to get involved with a incident that happened in MSP operating borders.
Correct my understanding of the cockpit if I am wrong tell me: should the flight computer should have sounded some alarm if you are overdue or overflew your destination airport and are these new fan dangled aircraft fly by wire which in lay mans terms means no pilot is needed for flight since the computer can do everything for you right?
This is a complicated issue but as I understand things you are to have full control of your ship at all times and any time there is a lapse something has to be done about it.
Well the FAA would probably issue a order to install two way video cameras in the cockpit from now on. One to be plugged in to FAA offices the other to the airline main offices for random viewing or constant observation.
ZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2861 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 17004 times:
DL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1992 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16977 times:
The cockpit crew throughout this whole debacle has been and continues to be most unprofessional indeed. The F/A seems to have handled her duties professionally and I have no problem with her telling it like it is. Why sugar coat what the pilots did? They both screwed up - not just the PIC - and they both got what they deserved. Neither one should be flying passengers around anymore. If one or both of them get their licenses back, they should be relegated to hauling freight and even that would be too generous for them. They need to retire and find another career. I don't wish ill will on them but they must own up to their mistakes, take their discipline, and move on without whining and pointing fingers.
Sean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 713 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16922 times:
FYI laptop usage was not against the NW FOM, just the DL FOM, which was not in affect yet during that flight.
Micstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 734 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16901 times:
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
It's very hard to find fault with management when they weren't the ones flying the plane here. But, how could they have every pilot fly to atl for a large like meeting like you describe without suspending all the flights?
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
Isn't NWA a DL subsidiary? Nevertheless we are splitting hairs.
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 7): IMHO: Pilots should have flown the plane FIRST, then discussed scheduling....
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4897 posts, RR: 21 Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16800 times:
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
Whether or not DL's management failed to properly train employees on the new system is immaterial and does not justify their violating company policy. I'm sure these pilots could have found a different time to orient themselves to DL's system.
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3664 posts, RR: 36 Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16808 times:
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
Um, who's gonna fly the airplanes while all the pilots are in said stadium?
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
NWA and DL Mgmt are one and the same. These guys are DL pilots, not NWA. They are only operating under the NWA certificate. Their paychecks say Delta.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): What does ATL FAA offices have reason to get involved with a incident that happened in MSP operating borders.
Correct my understanding of the cockpit if I am wrong tell me: should the flight computer should have sounded some alarm if you are overdue or overflew your destination airport and are these new fan dangled aircraft fly by wire which in lay mans terms means no pilot is needed for flight since the computer can do everything for you right?
1. DL is HQ'd in ATL.... The FAA jacked up the whole thing though as well. They revoked their licenses before the appropriate measure were taken just to appease the media. Rediculous.
2. Wrong wrong wrong wrong and...wrong. The airplane only does what the pilot tells it to do. The airplane is by no way, shape, or form a self sufficient device that does everything for you. As far as an alarm system when going past the airport.... pilots fly past airports all the time. It's called being on approach. Many other reasons to as well.. weather deviations being one that comes to mind as well. I've flown 100 miles past an airport to get on the backside of a weather system....
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): Well the FAA would probably issue a order to install two way video cameras in the cockpit from now on. One to be plugged in to FAA offices the other to the airline main offices for random viewing or constant observation.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. The camera would make a nice hat rack, if installed.
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3664 posts, RR: 36 Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16730 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 11): Whether or not DL's management failed to properly train employees on the new system is immaterial and does not justify their violating company policy. I'm sure these pilots could have found a different time to orient themselves to DL's system.
An interesting thing, apparently the transitional NWA FOM still stated that laptops were acceptable in the cockpit when this flight happened.
Still doesn't excuse not paying attention whatsoever to what's going on...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17394 posts, RR: 59 Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16666 times:
Quoting Njxc500 (Thread starter): -According to a statement signed by flight attendant Barbara Logan, she called the cockpit around 8:15 p.m. CDT to find out when they would be landing. She was told they would land around 12 Greenwich Mean Time.
Unless I have my math very wrong, 8:15pm CDT would be 1:15am GMT. So unless he was talking about noon GMT, 12 GMT (i.e. midnight) would have already passed.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
CatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 1720 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16546 times:
Yeah, shouldn't it have been "NWA 188 Pilot Thrown Under the Airbus.... "?
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
How do you know they weren't "properly trained." And for that matter, what constitutes "proper training" on a bidding system? Do you think they should have to "check out" on the system? Maybe have a sim ride? OR...is it the fault of the pilot who didn't understand the new process? In any event, this was something they easily could have discussed on their layover.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
Right...because training on how to bid your next month's schedule is rocket science and requires a revival meeting. Please...
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented SA)">DL from doing anything to these pilots since SA)">DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
SA)">NW Management works for SA)">DL. That's what a wholly owned subsidiary is. Furthermore, the SA)">NW pilots ALSO work for SA)">DL.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): What does ATL FAA offices have reason to get involved with a incident that happened in MSP operating borders.
That's where the certificate is.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): Correct my understanding of the cockpit if I am wrong tell me: should the flight computer should have sounded some alarm if you are overdue or overflew your destination airport and are these new fan dangled aircraft fly by wire which in lay mans terms means no pilot is needed for flight since the computer can do everything for you right?
You are wrong. I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, the airplane goes into a track mode once it overflies the last fix.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): as I understand things you are to have full control of your ship at all times and any time there is a lapse something has to be done about it.
So you just made my point for me. You spent all that time talking about how it isn't the pilots fault because SA)">DL didn't rent out Philips Arena and shut down the airline for a few days to "train" their pilots on something as simple as a new bid system, and how it is the airplane's fault because it is "fan dangled" and didn't sound "some alarm" for overflying MSP, and then you say the pilots are supposed to have SA all along and be punished for overflying MSP.
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3664 posts, RR: 36 Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16241 times:
Quoting CatIII (Reply 15): You are wrong. I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, the airplane goes into a track mode once it overflies the last fix.
Typically aircraft revert to Heading Hold after last waypoint.... it depends on the way the arrival is set up too.
Some have fly a heading afterward, some have a track, some just end.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7199 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 16106 times:
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
How is it the fault of DL/NW management on something that is against the rules to begin with?
BTW, didn't the NW pilots sign a contract with DL?? Doesn't that make them obligated to comply with DL's rules?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3051 posts, RR: 19 Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 16107 times:
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
That would have created an incomprehensible nightmare to try to get NW crews to the DL system within 24 hours. Over the last few months there have been various "phases" of transition to the DL way of doing things, some a lot smoother than others.
The Airbus and the 747-400 have seemingly had the most difficult transition. Despite never having owned nor operated either type, DL still feels supremely confident they know how to better operate them and are totally changing all procedures.
Quoting Micstatic (Reply 10): Isn't NWA a DL subsidiary? Nevertheless we are splitting hairs.
Irrelevant.
DL cannot tell Comair how to operate their planes, only the uniforms they wear and what it says on the side of the aircraft.
Quoting CatIII (Reply 15): Right...because training on how to bid your next month's schedule is rocket science and requires a revival meeting. Please...
The DL system is, indeed, remarkably complex and a definite 10 to 15 year step backward in terms of technology relative to NW's.
MKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1005 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15991 times:
It's hard to be thrown under a bus when you have jumped out in front of it of your own will.
This story has been around for some time and I have yet to hear one nugget of information that makes these pilots look the least bit professional. If there was we would have heard it by now.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
Britannia191A From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15918 times:
Lets put to one side what the procedures were, what time it was, whether it was BST or GMT, what the pilots were doing etc...
Its quite simple. Pilots suspended pending investigation. This mitigates risk. Investigation either finds them failing or not failing to follow process and be responsible for the aircraft. If they failed in that responsibility then failed to maintain responsiblity for this aircraft and put this aircraft, its crew and passengers in a position of risk. This is unacceptable. I am sure that they are feeling very sorry but it should be zero tolerance as this is the message that should be sent out to other pilots.
Cbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1251 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15895 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 18): DL cannot tell Comair how to operate their planes, only the uniforms they wear and what it says on the side of the aircraft.
Bingo...NWA pilots are still operating under there Flight operations/standardization manuals.
It is irrelevant what Deltas operating procedures are, because they are still operating under the NWA certificate. After talking to many NWA crews, it is my understanding that using a laptop was not against company policy (at NWA) and in itself was not an issue they could be offended on. Now obviously the other issue of negligence is there and that should be noted as the reason they are in the situation they are in, not specifically because of the laptops.
There is also a big issue within the FAA right now as to why the Atlanta FAA were the ones who revoked their certificates and not the MSP FAA, as NWA still has it's certs in MSP. According to the MSP FAA, they would have issued a suspension, but not permanently revoked their certificates. As I understand, the way the FAA handled the situation is under investigation and I am convinced, after it is complete, these two gentleman will get their jobs back. I think I have also heard somewhere that Delta has stated it will work with the FAA and the crew to get them their jobs back!
As for the FO throwing the captain under the bus, it is just his way to try and hang on to what little he has left. Unfortunately in this country, pilots are very me oriented and in the end, look out for only themselves. While it is the responsibility of the PIC for the aircraft, the crew in itself have a responsibility and both should be faulted in this situation.
Keep in mind, I am not saying what the crew did was alright, but I am saying the punishment should have been handled differently. A full investigation should have concluded before revoking there certificates and they should be on leave without pay in the meantime.
Pink77W From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14158 times:
simple, if you sleep on the clock , you put your career
in Gomer Pyle's hands!!!
Sectflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 359 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12188 times:
The FAA was so quick to revoke there licenses. Not just suspend them until a thoughtful hearing and investigation could take place. Im not defending there actions, but by some accounts there was more to the story than we all heard on the news. HMMMMMM.
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12019 times:
Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 9): FYI laptop usage was not against the NW FOM, just the DL FOM, which was not in affect yet during that flight.
Well maybe it should have been, obviously there is a greater issue of passenger's safety involved and I for one would rather they argue about it on the ground in MSP rather then in the air as one is over flying the airport.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): It is the fault of NWA/DL management for not properly training all of the staff on the new system so the only one who had such training on it is giving the info third hand to the other employee which can be confusing at best at times.
NWA/DL should have brought all pilots into ATL and rented the Atlanta sports venue to hold a meeting of all pilots and give it to them ONCE and FIRST HAND then this type of problem should not have to be an issue.
You can't be serious, can you?
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): NWA Management should have stood by their pilots and prevented DL from doing anything to these pilots since DL has no say so till 01-01-2010.
Why? These pilots should have not only been fired but drug out and arrested for creating a dangerous situation. What these idiots did is criminal. You can't be on a cell phone while driving and you sure can't be on a computer when you are driving, so why not have the same consideration for pilots while flying? IMO they are trained professionals and must use computers to help in navigation and route planning and flying but to be so preoccupied with it is criminal.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 11): Whether or not DL's management failed to properly train employees on the new system is immaterial and does not justify their violating company policy. I'm sure these pilots could have found a different time to orient themselves to DL's system.
They don't need to worry about that now.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): This is a complicated issue but as I understand things you are to have full control of your ship at all times and any time there is a lapse something has to be done about it.
Something was done. They were fired.
Quoting NWADC10LUVER (Reply 6): Well the FAA would probably issue a order to install two way video cameras in the cockpit from now on. One to be plugged in to FAA offices the other to the airline main offices for random viewing or constant observation.
This is not a solution. You would not want to work like that in your work place, pilots don't need a nanny camera either.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
25 Burnsie28: Actually at the time they still said NWA.
26 Duckredbeard: I've said this from the beginning. The only two people who know what really happened were sleeping in the cockpit.
27 Rwy8l: I couldn't agree with you more. This seemed to be a bundle of problems, including that of the pilots. Is it always the practice of the FAA to revoke
28 Nwarooster: They are busted. They failed to do what they were being paid for. So what is there to talk about??? Hope they stay busted.
29 Ikramerica: Hardly excuses putting an entire planefull of pax in danger while you sort out your personal business... That was my point. No matter what blame ther
30 Transpac787: That's not really the crux of the issue The FAA's reasoning behind revocation of their licenses probably did not read as "did not perform contractual
31 Ikramerica: Yes, but ultimately, besides having company specific duties, they are being paid to fly the damn plane, safely and by the rules. They failed to do th
32 ExFATboy: I'm not sure it's too harsh, but it definitely seemed faster than an usual FAA action, as if they were responding to, say, image problems? I expected
33 Ikramerica: Because he's too busy playing with his computer and worrying about his scheduling to pay attention to his job. My guess on why the FAA revoked so qui
34 Ttailfan: I agree that training is ALWAYS an issue within large organizations. But to suggest that the company stop operations for a single event in a huge and
35 Mir: The Airbus has, IIRC, two clock displays. One of them is on the lower EICAS display (technically the Systems Display in Airbus-lingo), and is always
36 Boeing747_600: He's not called the PIC for nothing. What a silly twit.
37 FX1816: Yeah and who would actually monitor what's going on in the cockpit here at the FAA. We have a bit more to worry about as Controllers than to watch a
38 UAL747DEN: BOTH the pilots deserve to have the book thrown at them. The PIC by definition should have more blame than the SIC but either way both of them failed
39 Thrufru: From everything I've read, I believe that the F/A heard the pilot saying the "I was hosed" was probably referring to himself not the F/A. All that asi
40 CosmicCruiser: That's funny, if you really add up the time involved. Crew rest after the last flight travel time to ATL from all over the country, rest after arriva
41 XFSUgimpLB41X: Looking at the track, the aircraft laterally flew the arrival, I believe it was the SKETR3.... then just went into track or heading hold after the la
42 Mir: They did fly the arrival laterally, but maintained their cruise altitude. That's normal for the Airbus if you program the STAR but do nothing else. A
43 CosmicCruiser: Yes that's correct I just haven't paid enough attention to it to know if they actually got around to loading the arrival. If we are coming up on the
44 SEPilot: Excellent example. Pilots are human, and will make mistakes. However, flying can be terribly unforgiving, and pilots have hundreds of lives in their
45 Ikramerica: Everyone is human. One assumes. It's the lying to cover up a mistake that should never be tolerated. That's likely why it was so cut and dry in this
46 CosmicCruiser: That's not really that strange. A tail strike can result from a variety of reasons that can be excused but lying has no excuses and therefore can't b
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Many other reasons to as well.. weather deviations being one that comes to mind as well. I've flown 100 miles past an airport to get on the backside of a weather system....
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