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Sydney Curfew  
User currently offlineA380AUSSIE From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 3 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

I work in the travel industry and I have noticed more and more airlines with evening arrivals at Sydney. And this would leave the airlines with potential problems with late arrivals breaking the curfew or having to divert if not cleared to land. This brings me to my question, with modern aircraft now much quieter when landing, has the curfew at Mascot been lifted for certain aircraft types or has the government become more liberal.

I was on a Malaysian Airlines flight about 8 years ago which ran late on the schedule KUL/SYD/MEL. Sydney staff did a fantastic job turning the aircraft around so we were OK to push back at 2300 for the hop to Melbourne. But we were denied clearance and had to transit overnight. The reason given was runway works but it was whispered to me that due to the iminent state election, the politicians did not want any noise complaints from their constituants who live around the airport.

I would appreciate you thoughts...

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3523 times:



Quoting A380AUSSIE (Thread starter):
has the curfew at Mascot been lifted for certain aircraft types or has the government become more liberal.

Except for some very exceptional cases, this wouldn't be normal.

I do remember recently some very late departures after midnight of various planes, most of them cleared to go before 11:00pm - but delayed due to storms if I remember right.


User currently offlineQF108 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

Hi A380Aussie,
No as Cpd said the curfew is still in place, 11pm - 6am (with some exceptions, eg I think its 5 or 6 arrivals allowed between 5 and 6 for part of the year). These are all European via Asian arrivals QF, BA, SQ.

The airport doesnt close down totally as there are freight movements with Metroliners, some Bae's and there used to be a Cessna that did a CBR-SYD-CBR run (it may still), these freight movements are generally Monday-Thursday. Although the schedules are no easy to find, when I lived in Sydney I used to here are fairly large amount of activity around Midnight. Would love to see the schedules posted if someone has them !!!

Quoting Cpd (Reply 1):
I do remember recently some very late departures after midnight of various planes, most of them cleared to go before 11:00pm - but delayed due to storms if I remember right.

Remember reading that too they departed about 00:46 I think it was.



Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
User currently offlineA380AUSSIE From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Thanks Cpd and QF108. This was my first post so appreciate your thoughts

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

The idea of the SYD curfew being lifted ill not get off the ground. The airports position is in a terrible spot for an airport, with incredibly low clearances over houses in the airport region. There is no garauntee that take offs will occur over the water so in that a curfew lifting is unworkable.

a new SYD airport would be needed for that. The political cost of lifting a curew around there would be too high.


User currently offlineA380AUSSIE From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

How will Emirates go with their new scheduled flight DXB/SYD...

EK 414I 15JAN 5 DXBSYD HK2 0140 2230

A scheduled arrival of 2230 seems very risky if 2300 is the curfew dont you think?


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3363 times:



Quoting A380AUSSIE (Reply 5):
A scheduled arrival of 2230 seems very risky if 2300 is the curfew dont you think?

Totally agree there. The fact that the airline has chosen this slot is related more to their DXB Hub flight banks than SYD's operational limitations.

The fact that so many airlines have chosen to fly out of MEL between 11pm and 6am these days just shows that airlines want that operational flexibility, but in a place like SYD, that can not change. It hasn't really hurt SYD though, wheras if it was MEL or BNE with a curfew it is likely to see a loss of services.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5669 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3186 times:



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
The idea of the SYD curfew being lifted ill not get off the ground.



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
The political cost of lifting a curew around there would be too high.

These I agree with.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
The airports position is in a terrible spot for an airport, with incredibly low clearances over houses in the airport region. There is no garauntee that take offs will occur over the water so in that a curfew lifting is unworkable.

This is cr*p! The airport is in a wonderful position. Most of the houses (not all) were built AFTER the airport.The curfew could easily be modified into a workable scheme for operation by quieter aircraft. It must be remembered than the noise the curfew was put in place to combat was the JT-3 turbojet, compared to that, the A380 is a stealth aircraft.

But unfortunately the political climate will not allow a sensible curfew. This is because five Federal electorates adjoin the airport. This is sufficient to determine who wins government.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3142 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 7):
This is cr*p! The airport is in a wonderful position. Most of the houses (not all) were built AFTER the airport.The curfew could easily be modified into a workable scheme for operation by quieter aircraft. It must be remembered than the noise the curfew was put in place to combat was the JT-3 turbojet, compared to that, the A380 is a stealth aircraft.

Its just an opinion. If a city allows itself to spread around an airport, it gives itself no way of maintaining the operational flexibility and rewards of good planning.

This is why now, it is a terrible position for an airport in the current context. There is no denying that the limitations of the site are such that it is not operating at its optimum capability. The chance to make those changes are long gone.


User currently offlineCragley From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

I flew GF years ago and we left SYD late through to MEL.


Staff seemed very rushed and concerned with the time.

We were taxi-ing before pax had seatbelts fastened.

Still left late though and the penalty is steep!


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2741 times:



Quoting A380AUSSIE (Reply 5):
How will Emirates go with their new scheduled flight DXB/SYD...

EK 414I 15JAN 5 DXBSYD HK2 0140 2230

A scheduled arrival of 2230 seems very risky if 2300 is the curfew dont you think?

My guess is that a back up plan has been already been thought off, which doesn't look to bad:

my suggestion:

If delay is over 30 mins, pilot lays off the gas.

arrive MEL (divert) 00.30
pax disembark and stay in transit lounge
depart MEL 03.30, arrive SYD in 05.00-06.00 window (some services permitted during this time)
quick turnaround and depart approx 30 mins late at 06.30

a costly exercise, but a descent back up plan i would suggest.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2688 times:



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 10):
my suggestion:

If delay is over 30 mins, pilot lays off the gas.

arrive MEL (divert) 00.30
pax disembark and stay in transit lounge
depart MEL 03.30, arrive SYD in 05.00-06.00 window (some services permitted during this time)
quick turnaround and depart approx 30 mins late at 06.30

a costly exercise, but a descent back up plan i would suggest.

Sounds horrible from a passenger's perspective! Just imagine flying for 13-14 hours then being told to wait in the transit lounge for 3 hours before departing to SYD and taking another short flight from there.. I don't think mood lighting would be effective either! Does wonders to the body clock. They'd surely have to reschedule the flight to depart earlier if they encounter too many problems.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2619 times:
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Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 10):
my suggestion:

My suggestion if pre departure delay blows arrival by 30min+

Stay on ground at DXB and "entertain" pax for a few hours then depart for a leisurely cruise to SYD and a 5:00am + arrival.

Likely keep pax happier than an extra boarding cycle in the middle of the night at MEL, maybe more to do at DXB as well.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 2501 times:



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 12):
My suggestion if pre departure delay blows arrival by 30min+

Stay on ground at DXB and "entertain" pax for a few hours then depart for a leisurely cruise to SYD and a 5:00am + arrival.

Likely keep pax happier than an extra boarding cycle in the middle of the night at MEL, maybe more to do at DXB as well.

That's a good option pre-departure, but they'll need a plan for any flight delays, or whether related issues coming into sydney..


User currently offlineQF108 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2458 times:



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 10):
arrive MEL (divert) 00.30
pax disembark and stay in transit lounge
depart MEL 03.30, arrive SYD in 05.00-06.00 window (some services permitted during this time)
quick turnaround and depart approx 30 mins late at 06.30

Am not 100% sure about this but would think that it would be a 04:30 Melbourne Departure as not any flight can land between 5 and 6. Its capped to either 5 or 6 so it would have to be after 6 am for arrival.



Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
User currently offlineCanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

I remember flying Qantas from LAX-SYD a few years ago. When we boarded the late night departure was delayed on the ground for just over an hour because the winds were so favorable, the flight was likely to arrive before the curfew ended at 6 a.m. After 10+ hours in the sky, we still arrived early and had to circle a bit before touching down.

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3329 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2352 times:



Quoting QF108 (Reply 14):
Am not 100% sure about this but would think that it would be a 04:30 Melbourne Departure as not any flight can land between 5 and 6. Its capped to either 5 or 6 so it would have to be after 6 am for arrival.

How does the cap work??

if for example one of the QF flights using the 5-6am window is running late (say delayed 730am arrival), and EK happened to be diverted to MEL that day, could they request that 5-6am slot to maintain the quota?


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2350 times:



Quoting Cpd (Reply 1):
I do remember recently some very late departures after midnight of various planes, most of them cleared to go before 11:00pm - but delayed due to storms if I remember right.

Off 16R taxi clearance needs to be obtained before 23:00 local, no restriction on actual takeoff time. From 07/25/34, takeoff must be no later than 22:45 local.

I have received taxi clearance at the gate before (e.g. request push-back/start and taxi), you have to play the game. The controllers play the game as well, they do not want the crews to rush.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2326 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Off 16R taxi clearance needs to be obtained before 23:00 local, no restriction on actual takeoff time. From 07/25/34, takeoff must be no later than 22:45 local.

I have received taxi clearance at the gate before (e.g. request push-back/start and taxi), you have to play the game. The controllers play the game as well, they do not want the crews to rush.

That must be a pretty hectic period then, making sure you'll be ready to push in time!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently onlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

If an aircraft looks like it is going to miss the curfew, it is technically possible to get a dispensation. This has to come from pretty high up in the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government (what a name!) - it may even have to go through the minister himself. I believe such dispensations are as rare as hen's teeth. I was once on a flight from Gold Coast to Sydney, and there was a problem with the APU on the ground at Gold Coast. We came very close to missing a departure time which would enable us to arrive before the curfew (luckily we scrapped by with about 5 minutes to go).

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 7):
It must be remembered than the noise the curfew was put in place to combat was the JT-3 turbojet, compared to that, the A380 is a stealth aircraft.

But unfortunately the political climate will not allow a sensible curfew. This is because five Federal electorates adjoin the airport. This is sufficient to determine who wins government.

As I've noted here in the past, I've always been in favour of a noise-level-biased curfew, such that louder operator-aircraft-engine combinations are more restricted, and quieter ones less so. Such an arrangement would have flown on benefits since a quiet aircraft arriving for example during what is currently a curfew period may well depart during what is currently a "free-for-all"period. As someone who has lived 3nm from the threshold of one of the 16s at Sydney, more or less on the extended centreline, I think such a proposal would be great. However, I fear it would not make it past the various flat earth societies (both those who want more restriction, and those who want less)...

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineQF108 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2098 times:



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 16):
How does the cap work??

if for example one of the QF flights using the 5-6am window is running late (say delayed 730am arrival), and EK happened to be diverted to MEL that day, could they request that 5-6am slot to maintain the quota?

6thfreedom, thats an answer I cant give you because I have no idea how it works, or how those airlines were allowed into that 5-6 arrival window as opposed to say the LAX inbounds that arrive after then. Im sure someone on here will help out with the full reason and answer



Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
User currently offlineRjm717 From Australia, joined May 2000, 87 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

The allocation of slots to aircraft in the 0500-0559 hour is strictly regulated. There are only 24 available each week and they are only available in the Northern Summer schedule season, between Mar - Oct, and ONLY to specific flights. Currently they are held by BA/SQ and QF but in the past they were held by AA and NW as well. They cannot be transferred, so for example if QF6 is delayed and QF12 is early the slot goes unused - QF12 is not approved in that hour.

Flights must land using 34L and reverse thrust must not exceed idle power.

There are also strict criteria in place to obtain dispensation to operate after 23:00. It's a complicated process, but if you follow the rules dispensation is often granted. (It is only a perception, but it does appear more difficult to comply to those requirements when an election is coming..  Smile )

R


User currently offlineQF108 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1973 times:



Quoting Rjm717 (Reply 21):
The allocation of slots to aircraft in the 0500-0559 hour is strictly regulated. There are only 24 available each week and they are only available in the Northern Summer schedule season, between Mar - Oct, and ONLY to specific flights. Currently they are held by BA/SQ and QF but in the past they were held by AA and NW as well. They cannot be transferred, so for example if QF6 is delayed and QF12 is early the slot goes unused - QF12 is not approved in that hour.

Thanks Rjm717, being Sydney I knew the rules would be strict about those arriving flights !



Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1932 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Off 16R taxi clearance needs to be obtained before 23:00 local, no restriction on actual takeoff time. From 07/25/34, takeoff must be no later than 22:45 local.

I have received taxi clearance at the gate before (e.g. request push-back/start and taxi), you have to play the game. The controllers play the game as well, they do not want the crews to rush.

Thanks for the clarification. 07/25/34 is understandable - going over land and heavily populated Western Sydney (out towards Katoomba for some flights).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Details of SYD curfew rules and related noise abatement restrictions etc. here.
http://secure.dotars.gov.au/webforms/curfews/sydney.aspx
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/sydney.html


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